Ramp agent reprimanded for reporting MX issue

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rpayne88

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rpayne88
Alright, so I work for Southwest.

Obviously, since I'm on this forum, I'm a pilot myself. Additionally, prior to southwest, I worked for two other airlines and had nearly five years of experience working in the GA industry before that.

Tonight, we had a plane come in. We offloaded it like normal, and since it was not departing for two hours, the rest of the gate crew decided to take a break. Rather than slacking off, I topped up the potable water before giving the aircraft a real walk around.

The walkarounds most of my coworkers do are little more than an exercise routine. Three days ago, I caught FOD damage severe enough to ground the aircraft- after both the gate lead AND first officer had done a preflight "inspection."

Since the plane I was working on tonight was not due to depart anytime soon, I repeated the same process I'd done hundreds of times before- often times in full view of A&Ps and flight crew. (To which none objected.) I actually looked down the static ports, stuck my head into the gear well, and popped open the engine oil access panels on each engine to check the sight glasses. That's when I notice a sight glass on the right engine was completely dry.

I'm not an A&P and, as such, I did not touch anything inside the panel. I snapped a picture of it, as well as the same sight gauge on the opposite engine (which was nominal) and reported it to the PIC.
viewer

ryan.payne.581730

It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels. Obviously I don't open those I can't reach, those with warnings not to open them, and those that would require tools. The only panels I opened that are not on a ramp agent's job description were the oil panels on each engine. (And only then because I had experience opening them from GA.)

The PIC was clueless as to what the sight gauge was for, stating he had no annunciator in the cockpit and called maintenance.

The other, more senior, ramp agents I had worked with, had told me "that's not your job, don't worry about them.", as if what I was doing was harmless, just unnecessary and that I could take a longer break instead of making sure the aircraft was safe. Eventually, they figured out I was the person who noticed the lack of oil and called management who proceeded to burn me at the stake for it.

MX came out to take a look. The mechanic took me aside and stated that, though he did not agree with how I discovered the low oil condition and that I shouldn't do it again, he thanked me for finding it. Apparently, the aircraft was unsafe without oil, and he left to grab some. Overall, he was gentle and more interested in using it as a teaching moment than seeking blood.

Management, on the other hand, threw a fit. How dare I report an issue that made the aircraft unsafe to fly, causing them to suffer a delay? They have not fired me yet, but it's only been an hour and a half since this all went down. They gave a very stern "final" (more like first, last, and how "f--kn' dare you do that") warning before pushing the flight out after it got oil.

Needless to say, I'm not doing that again. But I can't help but feel like what I did was right. The aircraft was unsafe and, while I may not have the authority to ground the aircraft, I can't help but feel morally obligated to help ensure safety of flight by reporting it to the flight crew. If something had happened, the laws of physics don't give a damn who is at fault.

I'm just kind of stressed out here and am trying to get my thoughts out.

Thoughts?
 
I am not in your industry to know the specific protocols for your job designation. The matter may be that you violated safety protocol by performing a function you are not considered trained or certified for such as opening an inspection panel. There is a risk in allowing those not trained or certified to open a panel to do so on their own accord. That in itself could cause an improperly secured panel to open during flight. What you found was a great catch however that in itself does not give license for you to continue to open panels without proper training or certification to do so. Management should take a hard stance against allowing the practice to continue. The next concern management should have is how a safety critical item was missed during preflight.
 
RonP said:
I am not in your industry to know the specific protocols for your job designation. The matter may be that you violated safety protocol by performing a function you are not considered trained or certified for such as opening an inspection panel. There is a risk in allowing those not trained or certified to open a panel to do so on their own accord. That in itself could cause an improperly secured panel to open during flight. What you found was a great catch however that in itself does not give license for you to continue to open panels without proper training or certification to do so. Management should take a hard stance against allowing the practice to continue. The next concern management should have is how a safety critical item was missed during preflight.
Click to expand...


...and only union electricians are qualified to change an incandescent (now LED) lightbulb 16" above a workbench which requires no tools or stools or ladders to access.

:rolleyes:
 
As a registered engineer who designs rotating machinery, pilot in command, and occasionally self loading cargo for this airline & others, I find this story interesting.
Your mechanic prob gave legit advice.
 
LIke RonP stated, he is not in this industry. So why is he commenting on something he knows nothing about? More eyes the better.
 
The OP asked for “thoughts”. Those were my “thoughts”. Had the OP specified “only those in the industry reply” I would not have replied.
 
rpayne88 said:
Alright, so I work for Southwest.

Obviously, since I'm on this forum, I'm a pilot myself. Additionally, prior to southwest, I worked for two other airlines and had nearly five years of experience working in the GA industry before that.

Tonight, we had a plane come in. We offloaded it like normal, and since it was not departing for two hours, the rest of the gate crew decided to take a break. Rather than slacking off, I topped up the potable water before giving the aircraft a real walk around.

The walkarounds most of my coworkers do are little more than an exercise routine. Three days ago, I caught FOD damage severe enough to ground the aircraft- after both the gate lead AND first officer had done a preflight "inspection."

Since the plane I was working on tonight was not due to depart anytime soon, I repeated the same process I'd done hundreds of times before- often times in full view of A&Ps and flight crew. (To which none objected.) I actually looked down the static ports, stuck my head into the gear well, and popped open the engine oil access panels on each engine to check the sight glasses. That's when I notice a sight glass on the right engine was completely dry.

I'm not an A&P and, as such, I did not touch anything inside the panel. I snapped a picture of it, as well as the same sight gauge on the opposite engine (which was nominal) and reported it to the PIC.
viewer

ryan.payne.581730

It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels. Obviously I don't open those I can't reach, those with warnings not to open them, and those that would require tools. The only panels I opened that are not on a ramp agent's job description were the oil panels on each engine. (And only then because I had experience opening them from GA.)

The PIC was clueless as to what the sight gauge was for, stating he had no annunciator in the cockpit and called maintenance.

The other, more senior, ramp agents I had worked with, had told me "that's not your job, don't worry about them.", as if what I was doing was harmless, just unnecessary and that I could take a longer break instead of making sure the aircraft was safe. Eventually, they figured out I was the person who noticed the lack of oil and called management who proceeded to burn me at the stake for it.

MX came out to take a look. The mechanic took me aside and stated that, though he did not agree with how I discovered the low oil condition and that I shouldn't do it again, he thanked me for finding it. Apparently, the aircraft was unsafe without oil, and he left to grab some. Overall, he was gentle and more interested in using it as a teaching moment than seeking blood.

Management, on the other hand, threw a fit. How dare I report an issue that made the aircraft unsafe to fly, causing them to suffer a delay? They have not fired me yet, but it's only been an hour and a half since this all went down. They gave a very stern "final" (more like first, last, and how "f--kn' dare you do that") warning before pushing the flight out after it got oil.

Needless to say, I'm not doing that again. But I can't help but feel like what I did was right. The aircraft was unsafe and, while I may not have the authority to ground the aircraft, I can't help but feel morally obligated to help ensure safety of flight by reporting it to the flight crew. If something had happened, the laws of physics don't give a damn who is at fault.

I'm just kind of stressed out here and am trying to get my thoughts out.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


Wow. Note to self - avoid Southwest.
 
Private message sent.

Uh, they’re ALL this way or worse.
 
So, great that you found this, and you probably saved them an engine. But, I wouldn't want a line guy opening panels on an airplane and can certainly understand why the upper guys are ****ed. That said, South West sounds like a **** show. Line guys catching what maintenence and pilots didn't.
 
Like most jobs, whether it is top tier white collar or digging ditches it all comes dow to territory. Your boss probably got chewed out by his boss who had to hear it from the MX boss. Doesn’t matter where you go, if you go outside your area of responsibility plan on hearing about it.
 
rpayne88 said:
Alright, so I work for Southwest.

Obviously, since I'm on this forum, I'm a pilot myself. Additionally, prior to southwest, I worked for two other airlines and had nearly five years of experience working in the GA industry before that.

Tonight, we had a plane come in. We offloaded it like normal, and since it was not departing for two hours, the rest of the gate crew decided to take a break. Rather than slacking off, I topped up the potable water before giving the aircraft a real walk around.

The walkarounds most of my coworkers do are little more than an exercise routine. Three days ago, I caught FOD damage severe enough to ground the aircraft- after both the gate lead AND first officer had done a preflight "inspection."

Since the plane I was working on tonight was not due to depart anytime soon, I repeated the same process I'd done hundreds of times before- often times in full view of A&Ps and flight crew. (To which none objected.) I actually looked down the static ports, stuck my head into the gear well, and popped open the engine oil access panels on each engine to check the sight glasses. That's when I notice a sight glass on the right engine was completely dry.

I'm not an A&P and, as such, I did not touch anything inside the panel. I snapped a picture of it, as well as the same sight gauge on the opposite engine (which was nominal) and reported it to the PIC.
viewer

ryan.payne.581730

It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels. Obviously I don't open those I can't reach, those with warnings not to open them, and those that would require tools. The only panels I opened that are not on a ramp agent's job description were the oil panels on each engine. (And only then because I had experience opening them from GA.)

The PIC was clueless as to what the sight gauge was for, stating he had no annunciator in the cockpit and called maintenance.

The other, more senior, ramp agents I had worked with, had told me "that's not your job, don't worry about them.", as if what I was doing was harmless, just unnecessary and that I could take a longer break instead of making sure the aircraft was safe. Eventually, they figured out I was the person who noticed the lack of oil and called management who proceeded to burn me at the stake for it.

MX came out to take a look. The mechanic took me aside and stated that, though he did not agree with how I discovered the low oil condition and that I shouldn't do it again, he thanked me for finding it. Apparently, the aircraft was unsafe without oil, and he left to grab some. Overall, he was gentle and more interested in using it as a teaching moment than seeking blood.

Management, on the other hand, threw a fit. How dare I report an issue that made the aircraft unsafe to fly, causing them to suffer a delay? They have not fired me yet, but it's only been an hour and a half since this all went down. They gave a very stern "final" (more like first, last, and how "f--kn' dare you do that") warning before pushing the flight out after it got oil.

Needless to say, I'm not doing that again. But I can't help but feel like what I did was right. The aircraft was unsafe and, while I may not have the authority to ground the aircraft, I can't help but feel morally obligated to help ensure safety of flight by reporting it to the flight crew. If something had happened, the laws of physics don't give a damn who is at fault.

I'm just kind of stressed out here and am trying to get my thoughts out.
Click to expand...

Uhhh...

rpayne88 said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a thought... stay in your lane. That is, if this story is even real, which I doubt (or at least parts of it are fabricated or embellished).

It just doesn't make sense to me.

First, you're a ramp agent. You're not typed in a 737, nor are you an A&P. You actually have no idea what you're doing or how to do it.

You, as a GA pilot, were going to do a real walkaround of a 737? Do you know what a "real walkaround" entails. Do you know that when you get typed on an aircraft, you have to do walkaround training. And every 18 months, you have to do walkaround training as part of your periodic checkride?

In the Air Force, we pilots were made to pass a "Aircraft Servicing" class annually just in case we had to divert to a base without maintenance and had to check and service the oil, or hydraulics, or fuel the aircraft. I've had to check the oil once or twice due to unscheduled landings, and even with that class, I would call back to maintenance if I ever had a question.

I'm assuming since they are Southwest 737s, that we're talking about CFM-56 engines. It just so happened that I flew an airplane in the AF with 4-CFM-56s, so I'm somewhat familiar. It's been a while, so my numbers may be off, but I do remember that you had to check the oil in those engines pretty quickly after shutdown (within 10-15 minutes) for the sight gauges to be accurate. If you didn't check them within that time, you'd have to motor the engine, and then check it. It sounds like (if this is even true) you parked an airplane, offloaded pax and bags, topped off potable water, then eventually checked the oil. No way did you check it before the 15 minutes accuracy time limit was up. Especially since they probably shut one down on taxi in to save fuel.

Also, it may vary from airline to airline, but the sight gauges may not even have to be checked every flight. The pilots have Oil Quantity, Oil Pressure and Oil Temperature gauges/annunciators up front which will tell them if they are low on oil, so the sight gauges may not even be looked at. And don't need to be.

So, you went to the PIC and told him about the oil. I have many friends who are pilots for SWA, and I'll tell you this, none of them would be hanging around in the airplane if there was still hours to go. Maybe SWA does stuff differently now, but they pride themselves on the 25 minute turn. Most of their planes don't sit for hours. They land, offload, onload and depart. I'm not saying that a plane dosn't come into an airport and sit for hours, but that's very unusual for an airline, especially SWA. But I'm sure as I can be that the pilots (the ones I know) aren't hanging around in the cockpit during a two hour turn. They are running to get a burrito at Moe's and running to their next gate for their next flight. Also, I doubt the PIC was "clueless" to what an oil sight gauge is for. We know what that is (and when it can be read accurately).

What the F does "looked down the static ports" mean?

This whole things reminds me of the "hero GA pilot" story a buddy of mine told me. A good friend of mine flew A319/320/321s. I can't remember what model he was flying that leg, but whichever one it was, they were able to takeoff with slats extended, but trailing edge flaps retracted. Well, they were departing with slats out/flaps up. They gave the ding and "flight attendants be seated for departure" call. They then got a call from the back, with one of the FAs telling them they have a passenger standing up, making a commotion. Apparently this guy sitting over the wing was a pilot and he just knew that airliners needed flaps for takeoff, and therefore the pilots must have forgotten to extend the flaps and he was telling everyone around him that would listen that they were all going to die since the flaps weren't out. Up front they were debating about just extending the flaps, re-running the takeoff data with flaps extended and departing. But then this guys would forever be telling the story of how he "saved" the flight and all the passengers because of his "eagle eye" and the fact that he was a "pilot." In the end, I think the Captain told the FO (my buddy) to don his hat and go back there and set the passenger straight.

I do appreciate the value of CRM and teamwork, but just realize that you may not know everything there is about every corner of aviation just because you know you own little corner.

Shoot... that's why I'm on here. I realize that even though I started flying in GA when I was in high school and cut my teeth on GA flying, the majority of my career has been military and airline flying, and I came here because I think there are many things that the posters here who are much more well-versed in GA flying can teach me. I don't know what I don't know, but I'm willing to learn.

Sorry if this post got sloppy toward the end... I'm already on my second whiskey and it's time for bed. And if you're curious, it's Michter's Small Batch American Whiskey, and it's delicious.

P.S. I snapshotted your post and sent it to my SWA Captain buddies and get their take on it. I'll report back with their airline specific thoughts.
 
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rpayne88 said:
Alright, so I work for Southwest.

Obviously, since I'm on this forum, I'm a pilot myself.
Click to expand...

To be clear, per your previous threads, you’re still a student pilot.

My thoughts: if you see a safety issue you are obligated to report it. However, you shouldn’t be conducting inspections you’re not trained or approved to conduct. I suspect you ran into hot water for latter, not the former. It’s possible to inadvertently create a safety issue when you start touching and opening things you’re not supposed to be touch or opening.
 
I flew for Southwest for 22 years and was told that the reason we didn't do walk arounds between flights was that the Rampers were "trained to do walk arounds". I had Rampers report issues to me, some were nothing and some were items that Maintenance needed to fix. Everytime I thanked the Ramper for bringing it to me attention. However in all my time at Southwest I, nor any pilot that I knew, opened the engine cowlings to check the oil level. We checked the level by the gage in the cockpit and if it was below a certain % we made a logbook entry and notified Maintenance. The aircraft that I currently fly if you wait more that 10 minutes (the recommendation is 5) to check the oil you will get an in accurate reading and longer it will be low.
 
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Tell your Congress critter about it. This is a public safety issue, not a ramp issue. f them. If they retaliate, hit them with a whistleblower lawsuit.
 
EdFred said:
...and only union electricians are qualified to change an incandescent (now LED) lightbulb 16" above a workbench which requires no tools or stools or ladders to access.

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

His concerns are spot on.
 
Brad Z said:
My thoughts: if you see a safety issue you are obligated to report it. However, you shouldn’t be conducting inspections you’re not trained or approved to conduct. I suspect you ran into hot water for latter, not the former. It’s possible to inadvertently create a safety issue when you start touching and opening things you’re not supposed to be touch or opening.
Click to expand...

This exactly. You aren't trained to do this, and it isn't your responsibility. You don't know what you don't know, and someone stepping outside the bounds of their position and training is a liability. You through your resourcefulness could very well cause a problem unintentionally. Or even another ramper seeing you do something and trying to repeat it themselves could cause the same problem. There is a reason airlines are highly regimented with specific training for specific jobs.
 
rpayne88 said:
viewer

ryan.payne.581730

It's worth noting that, at no point in training, did they prohibit us from opening service panels.
Click to expand...
But did you receive specific training on how to open/close the specific panels in question? Also, did you receive training on when the oil should be checked via sight glass, i.e., including any attendant limitations? For example, "greater than 10 min but not more than 30 min after shutdown?"
The pilot's monitor the engine oil levels from the cockpit so had it been an issue, they would have followed their guidance.
Maintenance follows their guidance using the sight glass. For example they may have to motor the engine to get a correct reading.
Maybe in the old days somebody would pat you on the back but today I'd be surprised if you're not terminated.
 
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Hold your fire for a few days. My cousin got a retirement job cleaning aircraft in Phoenix. He noticed and reported some frayed electrical cables in the cockpit. He told them what the cables did, too, since he had previously worked in the White House and set up communications for POTUS travels and had worked on Air Force One. When management did a background check to see if his "story" was true (it is), they offered him a big promotion and started assigning him to special high-importance communications-type jobs. So much for a stress-free retirement. So, I say give 'em a chance to do right by you. ;)
 
jayhawk74 said:
I flew for Southwest for 22 years and was told that the reason we didn't do walk arounds between flights was that the Rampers were "trained to do walk arounds". I had Rampers report issues to me, some were nothing and some were items that Maintenance needed to fix. Everytime I thanked the Ramper for bringing it to me attention. However in all my time at Southwest I, nor any pilot that I knew, opened the engine cowlings to check the oil level. We checked the level by the gage in the cockpit and if it was below a certain % we made a logbook entry and notified Maintenance. The aircraft that I currently fly if you wait more that 10 minutes (the recommendation is 5) to check the oil you will get an in accurate reading and it will be low.
Click to expand...

To the Op,
Step 1, ANY concerns or controversial events regarding your employment should never be posted to social media. That has been the most dangerous thing I have seen to date with anyone involved in aviation in any capacity. But, since that cat is out of the bag…

Thanks @jayhawk74
I suspected there would be a cockpit indication for oil level, but I have no experience with 737 engines. I do know any turbofan engine I have ever worked on (fighters) has specific time restrictions after shutdown on checking engine oil. They will hide oil beyond that time frame. Good on the OP for finding it and bringing it to the attention of mx, but kinda agree with others about opening panels. Don’t lose the passion for aviation, but maybe use this as a springboard to get more training and certs. As with most things in skilled employment, it matters not one whit if you know HOW to do something, if you’re not trained and certified, you aren’t allowed to perform that task.
 
Brad Z said:
To be clear, per your previous threads, you’re still a student pilot.
Click to expand...

Ah, so when student pilots solo and we all rah-rah that they are a pilot now, it's cool. But now it's being poo-poo'd. Convenient.

Bacho said:
His concerns are spot on.
Click to expand...
Just because you don't have a title doesn't mean you don't have the knowledge. I'm not an A&P, but I'm more than capable of doing everything an A&P does.
 
EdFred said:
Ah, so when student pilots solo and we all rah-rah that they are a pilot now, it's cool. But now it's being poo-poo'd. Convenient.
Click to expand...


Well, part of becoming a pilot is learning one’s personal limitations and the limits of one’s training and certifications. It doesn’t sound like the OP was trained to open panels and check oil levels.

The airline’s response, if accurately reported by the OP, seems to be a bit over the top, however. It’s difficult to say with certainty. As a passenger and as a pilot, I really don’t want anyone manipulating anything (including inspection panels) on my plane who isn’t qualified to do so. But I also want anyone who has a safety concern to speak up without fear of retribution.
 
Half Fast said:
But I also want anyone who has a safety concern to speak up without fear of retribution.
Click to expand...

The problem with that though, is every swingin' dick has a different interpretation of concern, and if not trained, "everyone" could theoretically have a concern.
 
Hopefully OP gets remedial training on his job duties / limitations, and doesn’t get canned.
 
Cloudhound said:
The problem with that though, is every swingin' dick has a different interpretation of concern, and if not trained, "everyone" could theoretically have a concern.
Click to expand...


There’s a difference between a ramper saying, “Hey, there’s a flat tire on the left landing gear” and a ramper running a test on the pitot-static system. One should be expected and the other prohibited.
 
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Half Fast said:
There’s a difference between a ramper saying, “Hey, there’s a flat tire on he left landing gear” and a ramper running a test on the pitot-static system. One should be expected and the other prohibited.
Click to expand...

That goes without saying.

My point was, where is the line?

In the op's case, he may have been over his employers line.
 
Cloudhound said:
That goes without saying.

My point was, where is the line?

In the op's case, he may have been over his employers line.
Click to expand...


Exactly! The line might be a bit blurry. The employer has the challenge of encouraging the rampers to mention the flat tire, but at the same time making it firm that they are not to disassemble the airplane in the hunt for safety problems.

I suspect the OP was over the line but I don’t really know for certain.
 
Half Fast said:
Exactly! The line might be a bit blurry. The employer has the challenge of encouraging the rampers to mention the flat tire, but at the same time making it firm that they are not to disassemble the airplane in the hunt for safety problems.

I suspect the OP was over the line but I don’t really know for certain.
Click to expand...

I think that's exactly the case, and the airline's safety policy worked as advertised. Most of the airline's I've been around have a policy of anyone can report a potential safety issue, no matter how small. A MX case is then opened and MX has to respond and clear the case before the aircraft can be released. That system worked. The only question is was it truly a legitimate case given the ramper's knowledge of turbine engine oil levels, which then created a delay.

At issue is the ramper in this case was doing things he was not trained to do, nor told to do. In firefighting this is called Freelancing. In high risk activities such as firefighting, or operating aircraft, freelancing is dangerous. We have methods, we have procedures, and we have training. Someone going outside of those and doing things they shouldn't be doing is not tolerated. As I said before, the ramper doesn't know what he doesn't know. There may be a proper procedure for securing those panels that he doesn't know. When he opens panels, he doesn't know what he is looking at. As others have pointed out, the sight glass is not a simple yes or no item to check.

Even if said ramper was a trained 737 pilot in another life, that day he was working as a ramper. His actions could set an example to other untrained rampers of what is allowable. The company can't have every part-time bag thrower freelancing around their multi-million dollar aircraft messing with things they know not about.
 
RonP said:
The OP asked for “thoughts”. Those were my “thoughts”. Had the OP specified “only those in the industry reply” I would not have replied.
Click to expand...

I appreciated your thoughts.
 
Sluggo63 said:
they were able to takeoff with slats extended, but trailing edge flaps retracted
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post. I've been on a flight like that one.. it also gave me pause taxiing onto the runway with what looked like retracted flaps but then I thought to myself (wait a minute, I have a few hundred hours in piston GA.. and I'm pretty sure these planes have take off config alerts) so I sat back and waited to see what would happen. SURPRISE! An uneventful takeoff

Thanks for the post

To the OP's post:
It's tough, people who work in an industry like this generally like the subject matter.. be it boats, ships, planes, trains, etc. Many of these jobs objectively 'suck' but there's a passion that brings people to it. Someone found a potential safety issue and raised concern, fine. But opening panels that you are not trained or instructed to do is the part that gives me pause. If I'm sitting at Signature and the dude who fueled my plane tells me there's a ding in the prop or a flat tire, cool - thanks. If he tells me the oil level is at four quarts that would give me pause.. "how do you know, why are you opening engine things?"

There's a line there. Hopefully the dude doesn't lose his job, and it's a good learning opportunity for all involved.
 
EdFred said:
Just because you don't have a title doesn't mean you don't have the knowledge. I'm not an A&P, but I'm more than capable of doing everything an A&P does.
Click to expand...

The A&P part of this is irrelevant.
 
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