Air Wagner..... He’s baaaaackk.

eman1200 said:
you kinda say the same thing just about every time. however, understand that we ALL make mistakes, but jerry does the same stuff over and over and over, and some stuff is MUCH worse than others. so then it becomes easy to pick out even the minor stuff and give him a hard time about it. if you watched someone's videos and they were almost always a solid pilot, you wouldn't really think twice about a minor mistake they made. when you're the king of crap piloting, the little stuff will also be brought to the table. and he deserves it.
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Actually I do see horrors in many of his IFR procedures. But you are right - at some point a pilot is so bad some of us see horrors in deviations we'd let go with someone else. I guess others of us so used to him being a procedural buffoon that we see something like this as so minor as to be pretty insignificant.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually I do see horrors in many of his IFR procedures. But you are right - at some point a pilot is so bad some of us see horrors in tin deviations we'd let go with someone else. I guess others of us so used to him being a procedural buffoon that we see something like this as so minor as to be pretty insignificant.
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It’s the fact that he holds himself up as an example of what to do that bugs me. And the fact that he doesn’t seem to care when he screws up.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually I do see horrors in many of his IFR procedures. But you are right - at some point a pilot is so bad some of us see horrors in deviations we'd let go with someone else. I guess others of us so used to him being a procedural buffoon that we see something like this as so minor as to be pretty insignificant.
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Normalization of deviance with respect to Jerry’s ability to operate within established norms?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Funny. Lord knows I'm no fan of Jerry's IFR flying. But I didn't see the horrors in this one others did. Thought it pretty benign as Jerry flights go. Low vis takeoff. Making an unnecessary turn and then turning back because he didn't realize the course to EBYIB was really just runway heading with positive RNAV course guidance right there on his HSI, but understanding procedures has never been a strong point for him. Pretty ho-hum.
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He didn't turn back, he said "Actually it's a right turn but I'm just gonna..." and then he did nothing and then there was a jump cut to later in the flight. He kept the left turn going according to the ground track that someone screenshotted, and never came close to going to the first fix. Thus not only a dangerous early turn but also violated his ATC clearance.
 
dmspilot said:
He didn't turn back, he said "Actually it's a right turn but I'm just gonna..." and then he did nothing and then there was a jump cut to later in the flight. He kept the left turn going according to the ground track that someone screenshotted, and never came close to going to the first fix. Thus not only a dangerous early turn but also violated his ATC clearance.
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I wonder where that screenshot is from. I looked at the flight on Flightaware and it doesn't even show the flight until after the turn.
upload_2021-7-14_14-32-21.png
 
Flightradar24. Search N513SJ on July 7th. It is completely consistent with the video and his (denial-ridden) narrative.

Not sure why FA wouldn’t pick it up, but maybe FR24 picked up his ADS-B early versus the radar track of FlightAware?
 
Regardless, where FA picks up the track is about a mile or more south of EBYIB, consistent with the early turn-out.
 
Also, did a little more digging - turns out the early turn-out put him in more danger than he thought. The terrain (and trees) are much higher to the immediate W and WSW of the airport, versus relatively flat terrain along the runway heading and ODP departure course to EBYIB. Of course, he couldn’t see that.

You can see for yourself by downloading the .kml from FR24 and plugging it into Google Earth.

Jerry got lucky. He needs to admit that to himself, his viewers, and fix the problem, starting with his attitude.
 
Flying Keys said:
Also, did a little more digging - turns out the early turn-out put him in more danger than he thought. The terrain (and trees) are much higher to the immediate W and WSW of the airport, versus relatively flat terrain along the runway heading and ODP departure course to EBYIB. Of course, he couldn’t see that.

You can see for yourself by downloading the .kml from FR24 and plugging it into Google Earth.

Jerry got lucky. He needs to admit that to himself, his viewers, and fix the problem, starting with his attitude.
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Well not complying with an ODP would logically reduce terrain separation. That’s why there is an ODP.
 
Flying Keys said:
Flightradar24. Search N513SJ on July 7th. It is completely consistent with the video and his (denial-ridden) narrative.

Not sure why FA wouldn’t pick it up, but maybe FR24 picked up his ADS-B early versus the radar track of FlightAware?
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At this point I can't go back to the 7th with the free account.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Well not complying with an ODP would logically reduce terrain separation. That’s why there is an ODP.
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Oh, completely. That’s literally the antidote to “well I figured it would be this because of that,” and why, combined with a very low ceiling/vis takeoff, we could be discussing a different outcome.

The discussion is good - necessary, even. We learn from this.
 
He said "294 to first intersection", he had it plotted on his mfd right in front of him. He just went into a left bank immediately after take off. That's what I saw that was scary, keep the wings level, slight adjustments, rw heading ( which was 294) until 400 agl.

The other thing he does is hit the VTF button during the turn to intercept. Cracks me up every time, he really needs someone to show him how to use those avionics.
 
PaulS said:
He said "294 to first intersection", he had it plotted on his mfd right in front of him. He just went into a left bank immediately after take off. That's what I saw that was scary, keep the wings level, slight adjustments, rw heading ( which was 294) until 400 agl.

The other thing he does is hit the VTF button during the turn to intercept. Cracks me up every time, he really needs someone to show him how to use those avionics.
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The VTF at OAK makes a little sense. He doesn't have VNV autopilot capability and the glidepath does keep you above the stepdowns. And, with his GTN. the stepdown fixes and altitudes are all there. So all he's really doing is making the FAF the active waypoint so the glidepath becomes active. Activating the leg to the FAF may be better technique but the net result on this approach with his equipment is the same. That said, Jerry does overuse it - uses it when not needed for that. But it does lead to the possibility of a stabilized approach with a single configuration change.

whether he is using it that way is another question.
 
Stick a synonym for poop in the asterisks above to go to the right place
 
:goofy:
euzmfs4h1wz31.jpg
 
Salty said:
yeah, but you (I mean Jerry) knew that wasn’t true as you (I mean he) said “1/4 mile” to ATC.
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Eh, he (not me) was trying to convince another guy to not go in. We have had several good laughs about how you and Ed think I'm him.
 
N1120A = Jerry Wagner


I can prove it....

N is the 14th letter of the alphabet. JW flies a 421.... there is a 1 and a 4 in 421!
11 - There are 11 letters in J-e-r-r-y-W-a-g-n-e-r !!!
20 - Twenty letters in Cessna Golden Eagle 421 !!!!
A - Auburn starts with A !!!!!

Proof!!! N1120A - Jerry Wagner
 
Argues about how he used his call sign but yet only replies with “3SJ.” :rolleyes:
 
And yet a 421 crashed in Monterey, meanwhile Jerry escapes unharmed... yet again.
 
dmspilot said:
I would have pointed that out but so many people do it most don't even realize it's incorrect.
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Yeah, it’s not a big deal or anything but if he’s gonna argue about proper comms, at least use a good example.
 
I'm late to the party, but I watched the beginning of the July 7 flight video. While he is on hold waiting for his clearance by phone, he says "the missed approach is climbing left turn ... so I assume we're gonna get a left turn out of here." When he briefs the departure plate, you can hear the confirmation bias solidifying when he reads "direct EBYIB and left turn via track 190..."

Shortly after liftoff, seemingly in a rush (e.g., it's just under 2 seconds between "back pressure" and "pull the gear up" in his continuous monologue, and no mention of "positive rate"), he is already in a left turn when he starts thinking about the procedure. That confuses him temporarily about his expected turn to 294 for the first leg of the departure. Had he really engaged mentally with his before takeoff check, which did include "DG double-check" and presumably at least eyes on the runway heading being right around 294, he would have known that 294 is straight out with no turns necessary.

It was really hard to watch as he continued turning to the left, farther away from the obvious magenta line on the glass panel directly in front of him. Nobody wants to be children of the magenta line, but actively steering away from the line isn't the answer.

My assessment is that he had "left turn out of here" in his head from his preflight thought process and departure briefing and his mental bandwidth was fully engaged in the hard IFR departure he was hand-flying, with no extra left over to think through and understand the departure procedure as he was flying it. That's the take-away lesson from this episode of Air Wagner. There is always time to chair-fly the first two minutes of your departure before applying takeoff power and doing so might catch something that you were about to do wrong.

Jerry is proof that it's better to be lucky than good. The rest of us can't rely on that luck. Imagine making the same mistake (assuming without challenge that the presence of a turn on a missed approach procedure means that your departure clearance will include the same turn) someplace like KJAC or KEGE, especially in a plane that doesn't climb as well as a lightly-loaded 421 at sea level.
 
iamtheari said:
I'm late to the party, but I watched the beginning of the July 7 flight video. While he is on hold waiting for his clearance by phone, he says "the missed approach is climbing left turn ... so I assume we're gonna get a left turn out of here." When he briefs the departure plate, you can hear the confirmation bias solidifying when he reads "direct EBYIB and left turn via track 190..."

Shortly after liftoff, seemingly in a rush (e.g., it's just under 2 seconds between "back pressure" and "pull the gear up" in his continuous monologue, and no mention of "positive rate"), he is already in a left turn when he starts thinking about the procedure. That confuses him temporarily about his expected turn to 294 for the first leg of the departure. Had he really engaged mentally with his before takeoff check, which did include "DG double-check" and presumably at least eyes on the runway heading being right around 294, he would have known that 294 is straight out with no turns necessary.

It was really hard to watch as he continued turning to the left, farther away from the obvious magenta line on the glass panel directly in front of him. Nobody wants to be children of the magenta line, but actively steering away from the line isn't the answer.

My assessment is that he had "left turn out of here" in his head from his preflight thought process and departure briefing and his mental bandwidth was fully engaged in the hard IFR departure he was hand-flying, with no extra left over to think through and understand the departure procedure as he was flying it. That's the take-away lesson from this episode of Air Wagner. There is always time to chair-fly the first two minutes of your departure before applying takeoff power and doing so might catch something that you were about to do wrong.

Jerry is proof that it's better to be lucky than good. The rest of us can't rely on that luck. Imagine making the same mistake (assuming without challenge that the presence of a turn on a missed approach procedure means that your departure clearance will include the same turn) someplace like KJAC or KEGE, especially in a plane that doesn't climb as well as a lightly-loaded 421 at sea level.
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But, but, but, he's a great IFR pilot! Best I've ever flown with. :rolleyes:
 
iamtheari said:
I'm late to the party, but I watched the beginning of the July 7 flight video. While he is on hold waiting for his clearance by phone, he says "the missed approach is climbing left turn ... so I assume we're gonna get a left turn out of here." When he briefs the departure plate, you can hear the confirmation bias solidifying when he reads "direct EBYIB and left turn via track 190..."

Shortly after liftoff, seemingly in a rush (e.g., it's just under 2 seconds between "back pressure" and "pull the gear up" in his continuous monologue, and no mention of "positive rate"), he is already in a left turn when he starts thinking about the procedure. That confuses him temporarily about his expected turn to 294 for the first leg of the departure. Had he really engaged mentally with his before takeoff check, which did include "DG double-check" and presumably at least eyes on the runway heading being right around 294, he would have known that 294 is straight out with no turns necessary.

It was really hard to watch as he continued turning to the left, farther away from the obvious magenta line on the glass panel directly in front of him. Nobody wants to be children of the magenta line, but actively steering away from the line isn't the answer.

My assessment is that he had "left turn out of here" in his head from his preflight thought process and departure briefing and his mental bandwidth was fully engaged in the hard IFR departure he was hand-flying, with no extra left over to think through and understand the departure procedure as he was flying it. That's the take-away lesson from this episode of Air Wagner. There is always time to chair-fly the first two minutes of your departure before applying takeoff power and doing so might catch something that you were about to do wrong.

Jerry is proof that it's better to be lucky than good. The rest of us can't rely on that luck. Imagine making the same mistake (assuming without challenge that the presence of a turn on a missed approach procedure means that your departure clearance will include the same turn) someplace like KJAC or KEGE, especially in a plane that doesn't climb as well as a lightly-loaded 421 at sea level.
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I agree about his thought process and giving too much weight to a missed approach procedure rather than the assigned DP. But it was an RNAV departure and all he had to do was follow his course guidance, no thinking was even necessary. All those fancy avionics, glass displays, and automation, and he still screwed it up in a fantastic way.
 
iamtheari said:
I'm late to the party, but I watched the beginning of the July 7 flight video. While he is on hold waiting for his clearance by phone, he says "the missed approach is climbing left turn ... so I assume we're gonna get a left turn out of here." When he briefs the departure plate, you can hear the confirmation bias solidifying when he reads "direct EBYIB and left turn via track 190..."

Shortly after liftoff, seemingly in a rush (e.g., it's just under 2 seconds between "back pressure" and "pull the gear up" in his continuous monologue, and no mention of "positive rate"), he is already in a left turn when he starts thinking about the procedure. That confuses him temporarily about his expected turn to 294 for the first leg of the departure. Had he really engaged mentally with his before takeoff check, which did include "DG double-check" and presumably at least eyes on the runway heading being right around 294, he would have known that 294 is straight out with no turns necessary.

It was really hard to watch as he continued turning to the left, farther away from the obvious magenta line on the glass panel directly in front of him. Nobody wants to be children of the magenta line, but actively steering away from the line isn't the answer.

My assessment is that he had "left turn out of here" in his head from his preflight thought process and departure briefing and his mental bandwidth was fully engaged in the hard IFR departure he was hand-flying, with no extra left over to think through and understand the departure procedure as he was flying it. That's the take-away lesson from this episode of Air Wagner. There is always time to chair-fly the first two minutes of your departure before applying takeoff power and doing so might catch something that you were about to do wrong.

Jerry is proof that it's better to be lucky than good. The rest of us can't rely on that luck. Imagine making the same mistake (assuming without challenge that the presence of a turn on a missed approach procedure means that your departure clearance will include the same turn) someplace like KJAC or KEGE, especially in a plane that doesn't climb as well as a lightly-loaded 421 at sea level.
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I agree with the overall analysis, but I would replace the reference to the "magenta line" (which is only for situational awareness) with the pink CDI needle on his HSI.
 
I've been watching the previous video where he flies to LLR. I don't know enough about the GTN or GPS to figure out what's going on here, but after being cleared Direct the IAF/IF of SAVJO, and is cleared for the approach, he activates VTF just after SAVJO...why? In fact, it is part of his checklist to activate VTF before the FAF on every approach :confused2:

Also somehow (around 11:10) on his way to the IAF/IF he gets off course quite a bit, with GPSS engaged, can't figure that one out either.
 
dmspilot said:
I've been watching the previous video where he flies to LLR. I don't know enough about the GTN or GPS to figure out what's going on here, but after being cleared Direct the IAF/IF of SAVJO, and is cleared for the approach, he activates VTF just after SAVJO...why? In fact, it is part of his checklist to activate VTF before the FAF on every approach :confused2:

Also somehow (around 11:10) on his way to the IAF/IF he gets off course quite a bit, with GPSS engaged, can't figure that one out either.
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No, there is something either wrong with his avionics, or wrong with how he is using them. I believe that system should be able intercept and fly that approach while in nav mode. He finds it necessary to switch to VTF during the turn or it will blow through the final approach course. I don't know enough about his set up, but I doubt that is the recommended method to fly an approach that isn't vectored. Unfortunately that is a problem if you don't want to ask for help from a knowledgeable CFII.
 
I half think Jerry’s an Faa plant to spur discussions like this as a training aide. But when I read the comments on YouTube from his fans, I don’t think it’s worth it.
 
N1120A said:
Eh, he (not me) was trying to convince another guy to not go in. We have had several good laughs about how you and Ed think I'm him.
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I don't think you are him, but you have kissed his ass so much in this thread and other with your comments that it is near impossible to distinguish you as two separate individuals.
 
N1120A said:
Eh, he (not me) was trying to convince another guy to not go in. We have had several good laughs about how you and Ed think I'm him.
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you talk to jerry about this stuff? what a conversation that must be.......


"not-jerry": hey jerry, I got something for you hehe, you're gonna love this, it's pretty funny.

jerry: (stops combing his mustache) what's up, "not-jerry"? I was just about to go do some unusual attitudes in low IFR in mountainous terrain with my wife and BFF onboard. or as I like to call it, "an approach". wanna go?

"not-jerry": hehe, maybe another time. so I was online where people were totally trashing everything you do as a pilot....

jerry: oh yeah, youtube?

"not-jerry": nnno, the other place online that points out how horrible of a pilot you are.

jerry: oh, you mean r/flying?

"not-jerry": hehe, no, not that one.

jerry: was it r/shttyaskflying? those guys are great!

"not-jerry": nope, the OTHER other place that always trashes you. you know, they take screenshots of you in 60 degree banks, descending at 2500fpm below minimums, full deflection off the localizer....

jerry: you sure it isn't reddit?

"not-jerry": why don't we just call it 'the internet'. the internet, where pretty much everyone thinks you're a horrible pilot.

jerry: the internet is groovy.

"not-jerry": well this is also groovy....so every time the internet is talking about how bad you are at flying, hehe, well, hehe, they think I'm you hehehe. pretty funny, right? gosh that's a doozie!

jerry: so wait, every time they talk about my poor flying skills, they are actually talking about you? but you don't even have a mustache....

"not-jerry": no, they aren't talking about ME, they are talking about YOU but they think I'm you.

jerry: so who's actually the horrible pilot? can't be me, I have the aviator shades to prove it!

"not-jerry": uh, hehe, it's you, clearly, but they think you and me are the same person.

jerry: but we're not.

"not-jerry": hehe, yeah, that's where it's, like, kinda funny.

jerry: hey, two horrible pilots don't make one good pilot!

"not-jerry": you got a point there, jerry.....who isn't me.

jerry: hey man, cool story bro. thanks for riding along!!

"not-jerry": enjoy your approach.
 
dmspilot said:
I've been watching the previous video where he flies to LLR. I don't know enough about the GTN or GPS to figure out what's going on here, but after being cleared Direct the IAF/IF of SAVJO, and is cleared for the approach, he activates VTF just after SAVJO...why? In fact, it is part of his checklist to activate VTF before the FAF on every approach :confused2:
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I talked about the VTF thing in other posts. But it's a long thread.

The OAK 28R approach has a series of stepdowns prior to the FAF. The VNV profile in his avionics sets up the series and gives him vertical guidance to meet each. But his autopilot does not have VNV functionality, so, flying with it, he would literally have to dial in each succeeding altitude until the FAF became the active waypoint. (He got royally screwed up by this in some earlier, more "famous" videos when he was expecting the autopilot to do it and ended up in one of his famous dive bomb sequences.) And hand flying would be doing so manually. That's potentially a series of descend/level off/descend/level off changes.

It turns out the extended glidepath on this approach keeps you above each stepdown. So all he is doing by switching to VTF is making the FAF the active waypoint and picking up the glidepath early. I'd probably do the same in this situation.

Of course, being Jerry and apparently not really understanding the why and the limitations, he just uses it in all sorts of situations. Some unnecessary. Some not appropriate. Mostly harmless but some potentially dangerous because I don't believe he really understands the approach or is paying attention to those stepdowns.
 
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