Thinking about a Bus/RV

jsstevens said:
But did it stall?
Click to expand...

This gets into that 'aerodynamic stall' vs 'engine stall' distinction that the press never seems to understand.

All RVs are already aerodynamically stalled when they leave the factory. That situation never improves, though it becomes possible to add an engine stall to the mix on mountain roads.
 
We just got back from our inaugural post-remodeling trip, heading down to South Padre Island for about a week with stops both directions for around 2200 miles total. This was the first real test of all the work that had been done over the winter - the bearings and oil pump on the engine plus new exhaust, new alternators/charging system for both the house and engine driven batteries, with new belts and the new water pump tensioner, and oil temp/EGT gauges. Plus the Air Tabs on the rear of the bus and, of course, all of the interior work that we did on it.

I'm happy to say that everything worked really well on the trip. The alternators kept both the engine and the house happy, charging well and let us run much bigger accessories than we'd run before. The voltmeter on the house batteries dropped down to the 13 range with higher amperage (around 160-170A being shown pulled). That alternator is rated at 270A and supposedly made 350ish amps on the dyno (I forget the exact number). But the alternator was still keeping up.

Nothing appears to be leaking as far as the plumbing work we did and we're not seeing any sort of cracks as far as our tile work goes.

The shower was absolutely the best part of the upgrades we did. The extra space in the shower makes it a lot more comfortable since you're no longer bumping into the walls. Having the shower head now tall enough that I can stand under it is also very nice.

The residential refrigerator was another big improvement vs. the old Norcold. It is so much more functional. We may have gone grocery shopping once for a few things, but we were otherwise able to just work with what we'd brought with us. A huge improvement. It's also efficient enough that we were able to leave it running on the inverter alone while parked without hookups at one point for a couple of days, and the batteries and 60W solar panel did just fine. So, that's plenty good performance and makes me glad that I didn't bother with keeping the propane portion of the fridge.

As far as driving goes, the improvement of the Air Tabs was shockingly positive. The driving characteristics of the bus were something that I "got used to" but really wanted to improve. At speeds above 70 any wind at all would really make it squirrely, and some winds had my max comfortable speed down closer to 60. We drove south at 75 or so basically the entire way and it was never uncomfortable - even on 2-lane roads with semis going the other way or drafting behind a semi or other large vehicle (those were the two worst before). So they may look a bit silly, but I can whole-heartedly recommend them as a cheap improvement in stability.

Having the EGT and oil temp gauges were nice. It shows that the oil cooler is working well as the temps never got significantly high, even driving on 85ish degree days doing 75 or so.

Now that we're back home there are still some little items that need to get addressed and looked at - things like fixing the power awning which has had a bad motor on it since we bought it. I have other preventative maintenance items to do like the front air springs and at some point I want to change out all of the coolant hoses and flush the system. Not to mention the new engine coolant driven heater in the back. I still have some other things I'm interested in doing like the electric clutch for the engine-driven fan, and I've got a few other items to look into and consider doing at some point. And, of course, finishing up the flooring in the front part of the bus and some trim.

But the nice part is, we've done a complete remodel on the bus, spent some time in it, and found that everything we'd done did exactly what we expected it to, and we couldn't think of anything that we said "We wish we'd done this differently." It's satisfying when that happens.
 
Are you bringing it to Oshkosh and Camp Bacon? This seems like something that must be seen in person to really experience it. :)
 
masloki said:
Are you bringing it to Oshkosh and Camp Bacon? This seems like something that must be seen in person to really experience it. :)
Click to expand...

We might. I’d suggested Osh to my wife, but we’ll see how we feel in July and how the schedule looks.

That said, I won’t claim any of this to be the Taj Mahal - it’s still a 21 year old RV which we’ve just done an almost full Reno on. :)
 
Finally got the video together for the alternator upgrade for your enjoyment. :)

 
Ted, thought of you and this thread when I saw this:
2ad6b26c88e70ad9a4416a5302487ff8.jpg
 
In case you didn't see it... It's a cannibalized Citroen DM I think...
4973fe029c5d441927ad904451f5996e.jpg
 
reenforcement of the old adage "Every 20 minute job is one broken bolt away from an all day ordeal" :)

Well done!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ted
CharlieD3 said:
In case you didn't see it... It's a cannibalized Citroen DM I think...
4973fe029c5d441927ad904451f5996e.jpg
Click to expand...

There was actually a double axle version of the CX, the 'Tissier Loadrunner':

a29862981fb1ceb5ec66dc336b19b55766cb0f27.jpg


Based on their gross weight, they were considered a 'car' which was not subject to truck speed limits and sunday curfews. At one point, there was a fleet of them overnight-shipping the german equivalent of the WSJ to the local newspaper distribution centers around the country. Without traffic, they could travel at 100-120mph.

I believe there was a Tissier conversion of the DS before that, and that may have provided the bones for that 'sedan bridge'.
 
Last edited:
Out of curiosity, any Wanderlodge owners here? Really really want to lay my hands on a late 80 PT40, maybe get into a Series 60 WB40 that had a REALLY good selling price.

I was introduced to Wanderlodges at my first Oshkosh almost a decade ago, and I've been obsessed ever since.
 
Steve Costello said:
Out of curiosity, any Wanderlodge owners here? Really really want to lay my hands on a late 80 PT40, maybe get into a Series 60 WB40 that had a REALLY good selling price.

I was introduced to Wanderlodges at my first Oshkosh almost a decade ago, and I've been obsessed ever since.
Click to expand...

You've probably seen the Bus Grease Monkey YouTube channel, but if not, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/c/BusGreaseMonkey

He loves Wanderlodges, although I suppose that for what he works on (anything with a mechanical 2-stroke Detroit Diesel) they're also the flagship. I've never been around one, but I'm not a huge fan of the styling on them. That said they're definitely higher end, and I'm sure drive better than my Holiday Rambler being a much heavier proper bus chassis.
 
I've got a weird GFCI issue I'm trying to figure out on the bus, maybe some of you RV/electrical folks have ideas - I'm a mechanical engineer so I try to solve everything with hammers.

There's one GFCI in the bathroom that feeds the refrigerator and another outlet. This has worked fine since we bought the RV, and worked fine on the entire last trip without tripping (that was the first trip we took post-remodel, with the new fridge). Fridge worked perfectly, no issues. No tripping, no nothing. So about a week ago I go to reset the GFCI (I popped it before parking the RV so the fridge wouldn't run when we didn't want it running) and it wouldn't reset. My first thought was old GFCI breaker, which it was, so put in another one I had sitting around. It would reset and work properly (fridge turned on, etc.) but then pop after about 5-10 seconds. It was a no-name brand GFCI outlet from Menards and I'd had trouble with that same brand in the garage and other places on the property, so I went and got a Levitron one from Home Depot. Put that in and it will go about 15-20 seconds, but still pop.

Last night I unplugged the load side on that outlet (so in other words the outlet receives power, but it doesn't go anywhere after that) and it looks like that didn't trip it. I need to make sure it's still like that this morning, but it seems to be working.

The circuit is weird to me. For some reason there's a 20A breaker in the main part of the bus, then a 15A breaker underneath the bus. They run in series, either one will shut things off. The GFCI is what's blowing now, though. Over the winter when we were running space heaters on that circuit the under bus 15A breaker is what would blow sometimes, the GFCI seemed fine and wasn't what I remember tripping.

One of the problems with how I have things set up now (this was my own fault during the remodel) is that it's hard to get at the outlet for the fridge. I suppose I could if I tried hard enough and that would let me determine whether or not the fridge is the problem. Or maybe the problem is the outlet the fridge plugs into.

The problem definitely doesn't seem to be amperage, but probably the overly-sensitive GFCI design to trip with something around 5 mA (or less) of current going between neutral and ground. In the garage I have a couple GFCIs that seem to pop if you look at them funny and are way too sensitive. I'm not an electrician, but the fact that this was working and now isn't for no apparent reason is a bit puzzling.

Any thoughts from the brain trust?
 
Ted said:
I've got a weird GFCI issue I'm trying to figure out on the bus, maybe some of you RV/electrical folks have ideas - I'm a mechanical engineer so I try to solve everything with hammers.

There's one GFCI in the bathroom that feeds the refrigerator and another outlet. This has worked fine since we bought the RV, and worked fine on the entire last trip without tripping (that was the first trip we took post-remodel, with the new fridge). Fridge worked perfectly, no issues. No tripping, no nothing. So about a week ago I go to reset the GFCI (I popped it before parking the RV so the fridge wouldn't run when we didn't want it running) and it wouldn't reset. My first thought was old GFCI breaker, which it was, so put in another one I had sitting around. It would reset and work properly (fridge turned on, etc.) but then pop after about 5-10 seconds. It was a no-name brand GFCI outlet from Menards and I'd had trouble with that same brand in the garage and other places on the property, so I went and got a Levitron one from Home Depot. Put that in and it will go about 15-20 seconds, but still pop.

Last night I unplugged the load side on that outlet (so in other words the outlet receives power, but it doesn't go anywhere after that) and it looks like that didn't trip it. I need to make sure it's still like that this morning, but it seems to be working.

The circuit is weird to me. For some reason there's a 20A breaker in the main part of the bus, then a 15A breaker underneath the bus. They run in series, either one will shut things off. The GFCI is what's blowing now, though. Over the winter when we were running space heaters on that circuit the under bus 15A breaker is what would blow sometimes, the GFCI seemed fine and wasn't what I remember tripping.

One of the problems with how I have things set up now (this was my own fault during the remodel) is that it's hard to get at the outlet for the fridge. I suppose I could if I tried hard enough and that would let me determine whether or not the fridge is the problem. Or maybe the problem is the outlet the fridge plugs into.

The problem definitely doesn't seem to be amperage, but probably the overly-sensitive GFCI design to trip with something around 5 mA (or less) of current going between neutral and ground. In the garage I have a couple GFCIs that seem to pop if you look at them funny and are way too sensitive. I'm not an electrician, but the fact that this was working and now isn't for no apparent reason is a bit puzzling.

Any thoughts from the brain trust?
Click to expand...

I would wonder if the old GFCI was not as sensitive as the new one. The refrigerator is definitely the top of my suspect list. Some electronics (like computerized controls) will use ground where they should have been using neutral. And in house wiring a refrigerator is exempted from using GFCI even if it’s in a location where it would otherwise require one. Like over the ground level floor in a garage.

Even if it’s a pain, try it without the refrigerator. My $.02 says it won’t kick.
 
Most of what I know about GFCI outlets comes from an electrician's mistake in my house. They had put a GFCI downstream of a GFCI. Something about that arrangement caused the ground-fault interrupter to trip, although I don't remember if it was the first GFCI or the downstream one tripping. It may have been both. Any chance you have something like that going on?
 
I am wondering why the fridge is on a GFCI protected circuit, shouldn't it be on a regular breaker circuit?
 
See answers above... I agree with both.

Certifiable YouTube electrician.

With building experience in mechanical, electrical, but no HVAC.
 
Remember people who design RVs aren't necessarily very smart. :)

The electrical circuit for the "house" side stuff is really not laid out in a manner that I find particularly intelligent/logical.

There are several (I think 3 or 4) 120VAC circuits on the RV. The one in question in the bathroom next to the vanity for some reason then crosses underneath the RV to the refrigerator outlet.

In fact, that circuit then goes to the front of the RV (next to the driver) where there's an outlet there. Which makes even less sense.

Remember that the factory refrigerator (Norcold 1200 LRIM) on this was the propane/electric fridge. It could theoretically run on DC/propane or AC, but I believe the control circuits were always DC, and the only AC was for the electric heating elements that were used in lieu of the propane flame. This RV was not intended for a residential refrigerator, and this was a conversion that I did later.

The fact that refrigerators are not subject to GFCIs makes me think that the "problem" likely is the fridge, maybe the new GFCI is more sensitive than the old one, and the old one did, in fact, finally die. If that's the case, that makes me think the correct course of action is eliminating the GFCI in favor of a standard, non-GFCI outlet (being able to put in an outlet with USB ports would be nice). But, it does seem like it's worth doing a little more diagnostic work to make sure that the refrigerator outlet isn't toast and causing the problem first, because if it is I should probably replace that too (or maybe replacing that would be good enough).
 
Re USB port outlet... I love the idea but almost nobody makes one that'll handle modern fast charge. And I've gotten used to the phones recharging in 2 hours or less from empty.

Quite a few are 500 mA USB1 power. Nearly these days. And almost none are USB-C PD which I'm slowly moving everything to even if I need an adapter.
 
denverpilot said:
Re USB port outlet... I love the idea but almost nobody makes one that'll handle modern fast charge. And I've gotten used to the phones recharging in 2 hours or less from empty.

Quite a few are 500 mA USB1 power. Nearly these days. And almost none are USB-C PD which I'm slowly moving everything to even if I need an adapter.
Click to expand...

Really?
https://www.leviton.com/en/products/t5635-w
Admittedly only to 15V and 30W
(And only when only using a single port, it drops to 5V 3A per port when using both)
 
This sounds exactly like what happened with my garage fridge. 3 outlets connected through a single GFCI outlet protecting all three. The fridge was plugged into the GFCI outlet (maybe 20+ years old). One day that outlet tripped, I reset it and the outlet tripped again. I got a new outlet and wired it in, but the new one (Leviton) did the same thing. I ended up getting a 2nd GFCI outlet and rewiring in such a way that two outlets are GFCI and the fridge outlet is not protected.
 
I went and unplugged the fridge, then plugged it into shop power with an extension cord (also a GFCI) and hooked the outlet back up. Like that, the fridge doesn’t trip the GFCI in the shop, and the GFCI in the RV doesn’t trip either. So, there’s something in the combination.

I’ll just eliminate the GFCI and replace it with a normal outlet I think.
 
Ted said:
#fakenews, you fly a 310. :)
Click to expand...
Not sure if you’re saying the 310 is dangerous relative to a non-GFCI outlet or saying it’s safe relative to the RV I built while drinking in the basement. :cool:
 
iamtheari said:
Not sure if you’re saying the 310 is dangerous relative to a non-GFCI outlet or saying it’s safe relative to the RV I built while drinking in the basement. :cool:
Click to expand...

A dedicated non-GFCI outlet behind the fridge is not a danger to anyone.

Fridges and freezers for some reason like to trip GFCIs. Theoretically they shouldn't, but as GFCIs and fridges are real things and not diagrams in EE class, they do. I had the electrician rewire my garage to provide a non-GFCI circuit for the garage fridge and freezer.
 
weilke said:
A dedicated non-GFCI outlet behind the fridge is not a danger to anyone.

Fridges and freezers for some reason like to trip GFCIs. Theoretically they shouldn't, but as GFCIs and fridges are real things and not diagrams in EE class, they do. I had the electrician rewire my garage to provide a non-GFCI circuit for the garage fridge and freezer.
Click to expand...

Dedicated non-GFCI outlets are the norm (at least when I was doing electrical work) for refrigerators. One thing that I know can give GFCI outlets headaches are motors that can generate back current when they are stopping. That I suspect is why some refrigerators kick GFCIs.
 
jsstevens said:
Dedicated non-GFCI outlets are the norm (at least when I was doing electrical work) for refrigerators. One thing that I know can give GFCI outlets headaches are motors that can generate back current when they are stopping. That I suspect is why some refrigerators kick GFCIs.
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I was thinking. Motor loads cause things to happen that I can see causing a GFCI to trip.

Of course, RVs are also often electrically funky. I was in charge of transportation for a touring group at one point and we had one that had all kinds of electrical gremlins on the DC side that I couldn't figure out... Until one day when on a whim I flipped the switch on my multimeter and discovered there was an awful lot of AC on the DC circuits too.
 
We got back from our latest trip on Friday, which was our second trip post-remodel and I suppose our... 5th or 6th trip with it total.

The trip wasn't entirely flawless, but it was pretty close. One of the new alternators (the house side one) had a problem and the pulley got loose. I think it's the front bearing that went bad but I haven't pulled the alternator itself yet to identify the issue fully. Fortunately because of how the accessories are routed, I was able to get a shorter belt to bypass that alternator and we were fine. We were running the generator the entire time anyway since we needed the rooftop AC units running in the 90+ degree temps we were mostly driving in.

Now back home the thing needs an oil change, oil and fuel filters changed (for both the engine and the generator), and the power step motor broke, so I need to replace that. Technically I could go without doing that before the next trip, but it is very nice to have and I'm the only one tall enough to easily get in and out of the bus without the power steps going down.

One thing I'm still doing some level of debate on as to what I want to do about it (if anything) is the cooling system. Even at 65 MPH, when it was 90+F out on anything but a downhill, the temps would creep up some. Nothing terrifying, but coolant up to 205 (normal is 190-195), transmission up to 205-210 (normal is 180-190), and oil in the 210-230 range (normal is 195 or so). Again, nothing awful, but I like everything to be in the ideal range - "limits are not goals" as I've often said on here.

The cooling system seems to be working as designed, it's just that once you get above 90F it's hard to keep temps down. The engine coolant ends up cooling all the other fluids - right after the radiator there's a heat exchanger for the transmission fluid to cool it, and then the first path in the block after the water pump is going to the oil cooler. Logically, trying to cool the transmission fluid separately would increase cooling capacity significantly as the transmission does produce a good chunk of heat, even with the torque converter locked up. I have also toyed with the idea of putting some heat sinks on the bottom of the engine oil pan, essentially free cooling from the airflow that's already going under the engine down the highway (which is significant).

It's worth noting that the cooling system does seem to work better than it did when we first got the bus, mostly due to changing the transmission fluid out to synthetic (recommended by Allison and I suspect the fluid was original). I haven't been on a truly long, steep grade since then like we were in Colorado last year, but of course the temps were cooler then. On those grades, both engine and trans temps got up around 225-230, enough to set off the buzzer for over temp.

I need to think on this some more and decide if I want to do anything before our next trip later this summer (when temps will still be hot). Or maybe address it over the winter along with other items. Or not do anything at all and leave it be.
 
Ted said:
As far as driving goes, the improvement of the Air Tabs was shockingly positive. The driving characteristics of the bus were something that I "got used to" but really wanted to improve. At speeds above 70 any wind at all would really make it squirrely, and some winds had my max comfortable speed down closer to 60. We drove south at 75 or so basically the entire way and it was never uncomfortable - even on 2-lane roads with semis going the other way or drafting behind a semi or other large vehicle (those were the two worst before). So they may look a bit silly, but I can whole-heartedly recommend them as a cheap improvement in stability.
Click to expand...
That’s really good to hear...I’ll have to look at those. We just bought a used Class A, and the handling in wind was...sporty. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ted
MauleSkinner said:
That’s really good to hear...I’ll have to look at those. We just bought a used Class A, and the handling in wind was...sporty. ;)
Click to expand...

After another 2000ish miles I still believe they help. I’ll do a more significant review on my YouTube channel.
 
@MauleSkinner what kind of RV did you buy? I have some other suggestions for improving handling.
 
MauleSkinner said:
2004 Fleetwood Terra...Ford chassis with the Triton V10.

Suggestions appreciated!
Click to expand...

So I would suggest the Air Tabs to start. Takes maybe an hour to put them on. Simple enough to do, and probably the cheapest thing to start with.

A couple of options exist on the suspension. The shocks may be original, or at least older/worn. On the diesels, the two popular aftermarket ones are Bilsteins and Konis. The Konis are known for being the better handling, but some people say they ride too rough. Our RV had Bilsteins and I replaced them with Bilsteins. I may try the Konis next time, but every time I drive a rough road, I find myself glad I went with Bilsteins, and they work well.

Another thing is that stock RV anti-roll bars are very small. My big diesel pusher doesn't even have a rear anti-roll bar to start. I'd look into aftermarket larger ones available. I upgraded the front bar and that did make an improvement. I've been thinking about adding a rear bar, which I'm sure will also make an improvement, but that kit is significantly more expensive since it has to add mounts as well as the bar itself, so I haven't done it yet. At this point I'm not sure I will, as I find the handling to be acceptable.

Some people also add a beefier/better steering stabilizer (basically the shock absorber attached to the steering arms). I didn't bother with this and never have on any vehicles I've owned, but something to consider if the above options don't help. Really that won't help your overall suspension, just maybe make the steering more consistent.

That era Ford Super Duty suspension wasn't known for having the best ball joints and you may want to inspect to just see if there's any play in them. I had a couple Excursions (2000 and 2002) and while I didn't have any suspension problems, I remember a lot of people complaining about them.

On the side of the engine itself, the V10 and 5.4 were known for spark plugs blowing out. I'd recommend going through and replacing the plugs as a preventative item with new, and making sure they're torqued to spec. They said that it was good to check the torque every 10k miles on them. On my first Excursion I did that the first time or two, and after that when the torque hadn't budged I spread out the interval. But, that truck had a couple of plugs blow out.

Another known problem area on those engines is the exhaust studs breaking. I had this issue on both my V10s. On the first one, I put on shorty headers and that did seem to help (at least I didn't have any issues after that). It seemed to improve the flow a bit although I can't say if that actually helped power or mileage, but it probably lowered EGTs at the very least. The headers were cheap on eBay (this was about 15 years ago, though, so I'm sure price has gone up) and quality was fine (that may have gone down). And depending on the configuration of your exhaust manifolds, they may not bolt up, so something to consider.

And if you really wanted to blow up your engine and transmission, you could add a supercharger. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top