wayneda40
Line Up and Wait
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- Jul 31, 2017
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waynemcc
Today we’re helping to relocate Cocoa Bean, a darling young husky mix, to her forever home in the Bay Area. And once again we’ll see if I can correctly copy and read back the clearance out of San Carlos (?!). If you’re looking to fly for a cause, PilotsNPaws can be a gratifying answer. Thanks for flying with us. Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
This is indeed interesting...That ones a mouthful. On the flight into SQL that Clearance via DOCAL kind leaves you hanging. DOCAL’s only use is the Approach into Palo Alto. Let’s play what if. You’re in the goo and you go NORDO before getting the revised Clearance via AMEBY. What would you do?
The one time I flew that departure procedure out of SQL, it turned out that what I had written down was clear enough for the readback, but not clear enough to decipher in the air eight minutes later, so I botched it and nearly created a conflict with traffic on final into SQL. As I wrote in my subsequent ASRS report, I should have reviewed my notes before calling ready for takeoff, to make sure that they were clear enough.Today we’re helping to relocate Cocoa Bean, a darling young husky mix, to her forever home in the Bay Area. And once again we’ll see if I can correctly copy and read back the clearance out of San Carlos (?!). If you’re looking to fly for a cause, PilotsNPaws can be a gratifying answer. Thanks for flying with us. Wayne, GeezerGeek Pilot
Richard, I've been there; done that; and filed the report .The one time I flew that departure procedure out of SQL, it turned out that what I had written down was clear enough for the readback, but not clear enough to decipher in the air eight minutes later, so I botched it and nearly created a conflict with traffic on final into SQL. As I wrote in my subsequent ASRS report, I should have reviewed my notes before calling ready for takeoff, to make sure that they were clear enough.
This is indeed interesting...
The route I filed was AMEBY
Expected was NTELL BLEAR V230 SNS DOCAL
Cleared was FRAME BLEAR V230 SNS DOCAL
As you noted, AMEBY is an IF for KSQL... and DOCAL has no connection with approaches into KSQL.
In lost comms, I guess I'd continue to DOCAl, then direct AMEBY and fly the RNAV Z 30. Or maybe ATC would expect DOCAL JEFNY (the IAF) AMEBY?
Good stuff to contemplate. Any controllers here have a thought on this?
Thanks!
Wayne
That ones a mouthful. On the flight into SQL that Clearance via DOCAL kind leaves you hanging. DOCAL’s only use is the Approach into Palo Alto. Let’s play what if. You’re in the goo and you go NORDO before getting the revised Clearance via AMEBY. What would you do?
Just the insight I was looking for! And perfectly logical to boot. Thanks!I used to be a controller. Didn't work up there though. I'm pretty sure I would expect you to go to JEFNY, an IAF rather than AMEBY, an IF. But I would keep the path clear for both. And as steep as that would make an Approach from the 8000 you were at, I'd clear the sky under you from pretty far out in case you decided to leave your last assigned altitude before reaching the fix. And assume you might reverse course on me in an ad hoc holding pattern to get down if you didn't descend early.
So I'm not the only one!Richard, I've been there; done that; and filed the report .
If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, 91.185 instructs us to "continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable." The route would need to be one that would allow him to remain in VFR conditions. If VFR conditions were not encountered, 91.185 would seem to require flying to an IAF after DOCAL, but when he requested the RNAV approach starting at AMEBY, the controller told him to expect that, and cleared him direct AMEBY, so I'm guessing that would remove the requirement to include the dogleg to the IAF.
As you note, assuming lost comms outside of DOCAL in continuing IMC, last cleared altitude 8000'... let's see how this might work:The 'what if' scenario was "...in the goo...", IMC. The last assigned altitude was 8000. What would you do about Altitude? Whether you go to JEFNY or AMEBY, you are on an unpublished route without altitude information. Would you have a peek at the Sectional and decide from that how low you think it would be safe to go?
As you note, assuming lost comms outside of DOCAL in continuing IMC, last cleared altitude 8000'... let's see how this might work:
Thoughts?
- continue direct DOCAL at 8000'
- pull out cell phone bluetoothed to the headset... I have LA and Oakland Centers on speed dial. This has good likelihood of working in this area, even at 8000'... and certainly improving once we do descend.
- failing cell connection, after DOCAL direct JEFNY at 8000'. Would be nice if we knew the MVA around here... it's likely ~6000', but we don't "know".
- confirm showing Terrain and Profile on MFD and iPad (ForeFlight Profile would show me terrain clearance along the important DOCAL JEFNY leg)
- after JEFNY, fly approach altitudes (4600, 3900), and (as you suggested) use the published hold at AMEBY if needed to get down to ~4000' leaving AMEBY inbound
The approach is only authorized for categories A and B, so there should be no reason for them to expect high speed./u/luvflyin,
What would ATC expectations be regarding IAS in this lost comms scenario? Given there are 18 nm from JEFNY to rwy 30, if we slow down before JEFNY and get in both notches of flaps (~90 KIAS), then the descent thru AMEBY without the hold is certainly doable on a slow but stabilized approach. But would slowing from say 130+ KIAS to 90 KIAS cause ATC any issues?
The 'what if' scenario was "...in the goo...", IMC.
The last assigned altitude was 8000. What would you do about Altitude? Whether you go to JEFNY or AMEBY, you are on an unpublished route without altitude information. Would you have a peek at the Sectional and decide from that how low you think it would be safe to go?
The last assigned altitude was 8000. What would you do about Altitude? Whether you go to JEFNY or AMEBY, you are on an unpublished route without altitude information. Would you have a peek at the Sectional and decide from that how low you think it would be safe to go?
Couldn't you use the MSA?failing cell connection, after DOCAL direct JEFNY at 8000'. Would be nice if we knew the MVA around here... it's likely ~6000', but we don't "know".
By the way, if I was in an unfamiliar area, I would definitely have a peek at the sectional, and would probably join the nearest published route in the interest of safety and reducing workload.The 'what if' scenario was "...in the goo...", IMC. The last assigned altitude was 8000. What would you do about Altitude? Whether you go to JEFNY or AMEBY, you are on an unpublished route without altitude information. Would you have a peek at the Sectional and decide from that how low you think it would be safe to go?
/u/luvflyin,
What would ATC expectations be regarding IAS in this lost comms scenario? Given there are 18 nm from JEFNY to rwy 30, if we slow down before JEFNY and get in both notches of flaps (~90 KIAS), then the descent thru AMEBY without the hold is certainly doable on a slow but stabilized approach. But would slowing from say 130+ KIAS to 90 KIAS cause ATC any issues?
Couldn't you use the MSA?
If you felt that the situation required exercising your emergency authority, the 5200 MSL within 25 NM of KIZEM looks like it would be a safe option.Couldn't you use the MSA?
I love the T-shirt idea. This procedure has gotten me curious and that's always a bad thingMark, the VFR-to-IFR Departure Procedure is also posted at the Sky Kitchen restaurant... and I understand it's also available to purchase as a T-shirt, with the diagram upside down so the pilot wearing it can look down and read the diagram .
With all the productivity lost (by controllers and pilots) with reading (and mis-reading back!!) this lengthy clearance... you'd think there would be a better way.
My limited experience would agree... I've filed/flown IFR 8 times into KSQL and here are my "expected" clearances (I don't have a good record of "cleared" clearances):I've always gotten AMEBY in clearances to SQL. I'm betting they left one off when reclearing you. If you did lose comms, however, you would proceed from DOCAL to JEFNY and start the approach there.
Mark, the VFR-to-IFR Departure Procedure is also posted at the Sky Kitchen restaurant... and I understand it's also available to purchase as a T-shirt, with the diagram upside down so the pilot wearing it can look down and read the diagram .
With all the productivity lost (by controllers and pilots) with reading (and mis-reading back!!) this lengthy clearance... you'd think there would be a better way.
Yeah, that VFR to IFR procedure is pretty easy to fly, but the way they make you read it back is kinda annoying.
How does it work there? Start out with you requesting your Clearance and requesting the ‘Soledad Departure.’