Takeoff separation

Jim K

Jim K

Final Approach
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Richard Digits
I went to go exercise the lance last week. When I requested my taxi clearance, there were no planes in the pattern, so of course by the time i got to the hold short life, a seneca, an arrow, and an archer, all from the flight school, came in to do pattern work.

My question is, I was cleared for takeoff right after the wheels of the seneca touched down. They were cleared for a touch & go, and were right at the 1000' markers; i was at the approach end. The archer was just turning base. I thought there had to be at 3000'of separation on a runway. Because the seneca is faster than me, I guess the tower controller could assume that by the time i got on the runway, they would have the seperation?

I wasn't comfortable starting my roll so close behind the seneca, so I lined up and waited until they rotated. I still got out in plenty of time ahead of the archer, but they seneca flew a huge pattern and I had to extend my upwind or i would've been turning inside them.

I don't have any complaint with the controller; he did a great job managing 4 aircraft in the pattern with a bit of a spread of performance, and the arrow was doing power off 180's so that added another wrinkle. I was just curious about the requirements for takeoff seperation. @Timbeck2 is there any or is it strictly performance based? I was concerned about having enough room to realize & stop if the seneca had a rejected takeoff.
 
3−9−5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll.

You behind the Seneca is 3000 ft when you start your takeoff roll pointed down the runway. They were anticipating this.
 
Jim K said:
...a seneca, an arrow, and an archer, all from the flight school, came in to do pattern work.

...Because the seneca is faster than me,....
Click to expand...

is the seneca really that much faster than you in the pattern?

you sure he was only at the 1000' marker? that does seem a little tight to me.
 
Radar Contact said:
3−9−5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff roll.

You behind the Seneca is 3000 ft when you start your takeoff roll pointed down the runway. They were anticipating this.
Click to expand...
Well, that answers that question, thanks!
eman1200 said:
is the seneca really that much faster than you in the pattern?

you sure he was only at the 1000' marker? that does seem a little tight to me.
Click to expand...
Not a lot. Their vref is about 10mph faster.

I was cleared to take off right when they touched down. Obviously i couldn't see exactly where they were, but that can't be far off. That's why it felt odd to me.
 
Jim K said:
I went to go exercise the lance last week. When I requested my taxi clearance, there were no planes in the pattern, so of course by the time i got to the hold short life, a seneca, an arrow, and an archer, all from the flight school, came in to do pattern work.

My question is, I was cleared for takeoff right after the wheels of the seneca touched down. They were cleared for a touch & go, and were right at the 1000' markers; i was at the approach end. The archer was just turning base. I thought there had to be at 3000'of separation on a runway. Because the seneca is faster than me, I guess the tower controller could assume that by the time i got on the runway, they would have the seperation?

I wasn't comfortable starting my roll so close behind the seneca, so I lined up and waited until they rotated. I still got out in plenty of time ahead of the archer, but they seneca flew a huge pattern and I had to extend my upwind or i would've been turning inside them.

I don't have any complaint with the controller; he did a great job managing 4 aircraft in the pattern with a bit of a spread of performance, and the arrow was doing power off 180's so that added another wrinkle. I was just curious about the requirements for takeoff seperation. @Timbeck2 is there any or is it strictly performance based? I was concerned about having enough room to realize & stop if the seneca had a rejected takeoff.
Click to expand...

The separation needed, you behind the Seneca, is the Seneca is airborne AND 3000 ft. Like said above, the controller can anticipate separation. Controller mighta been being a little risky with this one, clearing you when he touched down. Planes cleared for a touch and go then touching and not going is not that uncommon. You'd a seen it of course and not have done something stupid. But the controller woulda had some 'splainin to do.
 
luvflyin said:
Planes cleared for a touch and go then touching and not going is not that uncommon. You'd a seen it of course and not have done something stupid. But the controller woulda had some 'splainin to do.
Click to expand...

Thats why I always request the option if doing pattern work at a towered airport. Just in case something doesn't work out.
 
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