Disastrous First (and Last) Annual - Advice Needed

Racerx said:
If the FSDO gets involved, what is the likelihood of them taking the data plate?
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None. The feds don't pull data plates. They're only route at this point would be to issue a Condition Letter but since the aircraft is disassembled doubtful they would start that paperwork process.
 
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kyleb said:
"I bought an airplane. It was in annual. As soon as my new mechanic started the next inspection, we found this." End of story.
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You'd think that would work. Unfortunately, it's the unrelated issues that people will get nailed on like while looking at the previous annual paperwork they find the wt&bal/equip list out dated and question that instead.:rolleyes:
 
Bell206 said:
I guess it's a matter of perspective mechanic vs owner. Here's the difference in my experience. I tend to put the customers position first as do most of the mechanics I run with. So if this were my job I would have completed the annual first, noted all the discrepancies, then called the owner one time with several options. By fixiating on the corr before this point removes the picture plan options. Unless that is you as owners prefer multiple bad news phone calls over your annual inspection.

However, the main option removed was the ability to ferry the aircraft. Unless this mechanic had an equipped S/M shop to fix this aircraft he took the owner's ability to choose which option to pursue by disassembling on site. Which in my book took several repair options off the table.
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Seems more like putting the customer’s cash ahead of the customer’s life.
 
If this is the same airplane that's on the Piper board, The corrosion that exists in the fuselage is so far gone that there is no way it could have been missed during previous inspections, paint jobs, and interior installations. That said, I don't know which way I would go with it, if I was the OP. There are a couple of options mentioned here, and one that I haven't seen, but may be cost prohibitive. Buy a fuselage shell with good tailfeathers, and go from there.
 
Racerx said:
If the FSDO gets involved, what is the likelihood of them taking the data plate? Not that the fuselage was any good to begin with, but that eliminates any chance of someone attempting a repair, if one was possible. One other thing that I don't believe has been brought up. We know the owner/A&P that painted it and put interior had to have known about the corrosion. It probably explains why it was painted just white. The overhaul was also done the same year the lipstick was put on. Does anyone really trust the overhaul to be any better than the airframe? Such a crappy situation and you start to question everything.
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That was definitely a concern that my mechanic and I had, but the engine seems to the best part of the airplane. It has had several oil analyses since overhaul and they all were fine, oil filter check and compression check two weeks ago were also fine, and the engine ran great when the plane was flying. But you're right, you tend to question everything after a blow like this.
 
bluerooster said:
If this is the same airplane that's on the Piper board, The corrosion that exists in the fuselage is so far gone that there is no way it could have been missed during previous inspections, paint jobs, and interior installations. That said, I don't know which way I would go with it, if I was the OP. There are a couple of options mentioned here, and one that I haven't seen, but may be cost prohibitive. Buy a fuselage shell with good tailfeathers, and go from there.
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Yes, same plane as on Piper Forum. I thought about the scenario you mentioned but I don't think it's viable for me - I'm pretty sure I don't have the skills (nor time) to take on a project like this and I don't have a hangar to work in. And I could see the bills racking up pretty quickly if I got my mechanic to do it. I'm just not seeing any great solutions at this point...
 
at least you won't be flying it.

a real aircraft salesman would just put it up for sale again at full price. "Great plane, low time engine, ready to go!"
 
Is an insurance claim an option? Never filed one so no idea.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
If it's not, it sounds like the OP should hand prop the plane but "forget" the chocks. A technique I call the "Henning".
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Grum.Man said:
Or encounter a “sudden wind gust” and drift over a few runway markers and lights.
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Illegal..... I know you two know that, it makes insurance cost more for everyone else and is quite a sleezy thing to do. Beyond that insurance is not for covering maintenance issues.
 
Sure, trade A&P/owner negligence for insurance fraud. But you spoke in jest.

This whole event does bring up the thought of a market for buyers protection insurance. But then again, either there would be so many requirements with a policy that these things would be discovered before closing, or the insurance companies would fight to avoid paying such claims.
 
PaulS said:
Illegal..... I know you two know that, it makes insurance cost more for everyone else and is quite a sleezy thing to do. Beyond that insurance is not for covering maintenance issues.
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I'm joking and I'm sure @Grum.Man is too. I had to fight to get my insurance down to only a 50% raise from last year. Originally it was 120% higher.
 
bluerooster said:
If this is the same airplane that's on the Piper board, The corrosion that exists in the fuselage is so far gone that there is no way it could have been missed during previous inspections, paint jobs, and interior installations. That said, I don't know which way I would go with it, if I was the OP. There are a couple of options mentioned here, and one that I haven't seen, but may be cost prohibitive. Buy a fuselage shell with good tailfeathers, and go from there.
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I brought that up previously. The problem is nobody taking on that kind of project is going to give more than he'd get parting it out. I'm all for keeping one in the fleet. Especially after seeing and reading the Kathryn's on planes that probably should have been repaired. N112DE, engine out land in field. Fuselage looks stellar. Not a scratch on the wings. Damn shame. The problem here is, in great condition vfr equipped it's worth 40k. Maybe you can find the fuselage for 5k and the feathers for 3k. What would it take for an A&P to do the swap? 15-20k? Would be a cool project for somebody with time and a hangar. Somebody that hasn't already taken a 40k hit
 
PaulS said:
I know you both were joking, unfortunately there are people who do crap like this all the time, ticks me off.
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In this case it would backfire. Unless you’re willing to light it on fire to hide it, insurance isn’t going to cover corrosion. You might get a few grand out of them at best, certainly less than salvage is worth.
 
Lindberg said:
Fraud is not legal.
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Technically you are correct, in practice, not too much. Generally a purchase like this is done as is. It's up to the buyer to confirm it's useable. Another legal way to steal is done by shady businesses all the time, they buy stuff they have no intention or know they could never pay for. If you go after them they go bankrupt. Nothing you can do about it, except be diligent and limit your exposure up front.

Right after our business sold we had a customer, who had been ok at paying, suddenly get very slow, they got into us for about $50k. It was partially my fault because I knew one of the guys in charge, who all of a sudden became very unresponsive. Their problem was that we were holding about $500k worth of inventory we used to make their product for them.

They were over 100 days past due, unresponsive, when they called and placed an order. I told my inventory guy to grab all their inventory and bring it to me. I locked it in a cabinet. I told the sales guy to call the customer back and tell them that we can't find their inventory, sorry. They all of a sudden got very responsive. The guy I knew called me yelling and screaming telling me it was illegal to hold their product hostage, he was going to sue me, blah, blah, blah. I told him that we weren't holding his product hostage, we just couldn't find it, but it didn't matter anyway because we weren't lifting a finger to find it until they paid in full. A bunch of calls and about a week later a check came for the full amount. He called and asked when the product would ship, I told him 'Good news, we located your inventory!, but you are now Cash in advance, we'll turn your order as soon as the check clears. They sent a cashier check that day, told me to include all their inventory when we shipped. We obliged. While this was going on, I decided to "retire" and had given a months notice. The guy I knew called my "boss" and told him what had gone on and we had lost a huge account. The sales guy was upset because of his potential commission. My boss called me and asked what happened, why did we lose this huge order. I told him that he should be thanking me, I just saved us a $50k write off, that the guy I knew was full of crap. I did my notice time, left, about 2 months later the customer went bankrupt, with about $15 million in accounts payable to a bunch of companies. The CEO got a million dollar severance, the guy I knew get screwed out of a months pay. I just laughed, called my old boss and said, "you're welcome".
 
PaulS said:
Technically you are correct, in practice, not too much. Generally a purchase like this is done as is. It's up to the buyer to confirm it's useable. Another legal way to steal is done by shady businesses all the time, they buy stuff they have no intention or know they could never pay for. If you go after them they go bankrupt. Nothing you can do about it, except be diligent and limit your exposure up front.

Right after our business sold we had a customer, who had been ok at paying, suddenly get very slow, they got into us for about $50k. It was partially my fault because I knew one of the guys in charge, who all of a sudden became very unresponsive. Their problem was that we were holding about $500k worth of inventory we used to make their product for them.

They were over 100 days past due, unresponsive, when they called and placed an order. I told my inventory guy to grab all their inventory and bring it to me. I locked it in a cabinet. I told the sales guy to call the customer back and tell them that we can't find their inventory, sorry. They all of a sudden got very responsive. The guy I knew called me yelling and screaming telling me it was illegal to hold their product hostage, he was going to sue me, blah, blah, blah. I told him that we weren't holding his product hostage, we just couldn't find it, but it didn't matter anyway because we weren't lifting a finger to find it until they paid in full. A bunch of calls and about a week later a check came for the full amount. He called and asked when the product would ship, I told him 'Good news, we located your inventory!, but you are now Cash in advance, we'll turn your order as soon as the check clears. They sent a cashier check that day, told me to include all their inventory when we shipped. We obliged. While this was going on, I decided to "retire" and had given a months notice. The guy I knew called my "boss" and told him what had gone on and we had lost a huge account. The sales guy was upset because of his potential commission. My boss called me and asked what happened, why did we lose this huge order. I told him that he should be thanking me, I just saved us a $50k write off, that the guy I knew was full of crap. I did my notice time, left, about 2 months later the customer went bankrupt, with about $15 million in accounts payable to a bunch of companies. The CEO got a million dollar severance, the guy I knew get screwed out of a months pay. I just laughed, called my old boss and said, "you're welcome".
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Odd example to use. Telling someone their you can't find their inventory when you can sounds fraudulent to me. If their contracts were such that you agreed to provide product and didn't protect you against non-payment, that's on your company. If the contracts weren't written that way, then why lie? Just tell them to pay before you ship.

I guess you were providing an example where fraud was moral but not legal?
 
Salty said:
Odd example to use. Telling someone their you can't find their inventory when you can sounds fraudulent to me.
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Eh, maybe, he knew his parts were fine, he also knew he wasn't going to get them unless he paid up. Going to court would have taken him months. The one thing I do know is that if I hadn't done that, we would have been out of the money, they were crooks.
 
I "wasted" a bit of money flying to review aircraft being sold by "shady" owners. Would find a log page not included in the scans that was critical. Owners EVERYTIME would state," You wouldn't have come to see the plane if you were aware of that ...".

My first aircraft (after dealing with several of these liars) I didn't even see until after I traveled to bring it home. Pre-buy was a full annual at FletchAIR (Tiger specialist). I adjusted the contract to basically say I would pay the agreed upon full price if NO airworthy issues arose. Plane was due for an annual, so also included that seller was paying for annual if airworthy issues that could not be agreed upon arose. Seller was actually good and covered far more than he needed (helped that it was a partnered plane and that they were very well off). FletchAIR isn't cheap either, but that Tiger was SOLID for the 10 year I flew it.
 
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PaulS said:
Technically you are correct, in practice, not too much. Generally a purchase like this is done as is. It's up to the buyer to confirm it's useable. Another legal way to steal is done by shady businesses all the time, they buy stuff they have no intention or know they could never pay for. If you go after them they go bankrupt. Nothing you can do about it, except be diligent and limit your exposure up front.

Right after our business sold we had a customer, who had been ok at paying, suddenly get very slow, they got into us for about $50k. It was partially my fault because I knew one of the guys in charge, who all of a sudden became very unresponsive. Their problem was that we were holding about $500k worth of inventory we used to make their product for them.

They were over 100 days past due, unresponsive, when they called and placed an order. I told my inventory guy to grab all their inventory and bring it to me. I locked it in a cabinet. I told the sales guy to call the customer back and tell them that we can't find their inventory, sorry. They all of a sudden got very responsive. The guy I knew called me yelling and screaming telling me it was illegal to hold their product hostage, he was going to sue me, blah, blah, blah. I told him that we weren't holding his product hostage, we just couldn't find it, but it didn't matter anyway because we weren't lifting a finger to find it until they paid in full. A bunch of calls and about a week later a check came for the full amount. He called and asked when the product would ship, I told him 'Good news, we located your inventory!, but you are now Cash in advance, we'll turn your order as soon as the check clears. They sent a cashier check that day, told me to include all their inventory when we shipped. We obliged. While this was going on, I decided to "retire" and had given a months notice. The guy I knew called my "boss" and told him what had gone on and we had lost a huge account. The sales guy was upset because of his potential commission. My boss called me and asked what happened, why did we lose this huge order. I told him that he should be thanking me, I just saved us a $50k write off, that the guy I knew was full of crap. I did my notice time, left, about 2 months later the customer went bankrupt, with about $15 million in accounts payable to a bunch of companies. The CEO got a million dollar severance, the guy I knew get screwed out of a months pay. I just laughed, called my old boss and said, "you're welcome".
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Is the moral of this story that you behaved unethically, so others should too? I'd expect a well-written contract in your situation would allow the manufacturer a lien for payment on the raw materials, without need to resort to such tactics.

But I'll take legal advice from pilots just as soon as I'll take flying advice from lawyers. Fortunately, the OP is in contact with an attorney, who will presumably give him advice not based on conjecture and OWTs.
 
PaulS said:
Eh, maybe, he knew his parts were fine, he also knew he wasn't going to get them unless he paid up. Going to court would have taken him months. The one thing I do know is that if I hadn't done that, we would have been out of the money, they were crooks.
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Armchair QB here. "You're on credit hold until you settle your bill and will be on a CBD basis going forward."
 
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Lindberg said:
Is the moral of this story that you behaved unethically, so others should too? I'd expect a well-written contract in your situation would allow the manufacturer a lien for payment on the raw materials, without need to resort to such tactics.

But I'll take legal advice from pilots just as soon as I'll take flying advice from lawyers. Fortunately, the OP is in contact with an attorney, who will presumably give him advice not based on conjecture and OWTs.
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Yup, and you wouldn't have gotten paid.
 
kyleb said:
Armchair QB here. "You're on credit hold until you settle your bill and will be on a CBD basis going forward."
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It was a while ago, but they would have pulled their parts and gone elsewhere. The issue was they claimed they came to us in the first place because elsewhere kept ruining their inventory.
 
Question for the OP, how much did the pre purchase inspection cost you?

What was his hourly rate?
 
YKA said:
Question for the OP, how much did the pre purchase inspection cost you?

What was his hourly rate?
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If I remember correctly, it was about $500 for 5-6 hours of work.
 
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I think not getting a lawyer involved is key. We had a major issue with a repair cost sky rocketing 3x the original quote. We had a number of calls with them and was able to reduce the crazy bill down to something reasonable. The biggest issue is how you might be able to get some money from the past IAs with out bringing lawyers into. Even if they would reimburse you the cost of their previous annual it would help. Good luck!
 
MJW_Pilot said:
I think not getting a lawyer involved is key. We had a major issue with a repair cost sky rocketing 3x the original quote. We had a number of calls with them and was able to reduce the crazy bill down to something reasonable. The biggest issue is how you might be able to get some money from the past IAs with out bringing lawyers into. Even if they would reimburse you the cost of their previous annual it would help. Good luck!
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This is a good point, a phone call to the guy who did the pre-buy and the previous owner just to see what they say might be well worth it.
 
obw said:
At the very least, it's worth contacting the previous owner, their mechanic who signed off on the annual, and the IA who did my pre-buy.
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That certainly seems like the appropriate thing to do first. To the mechanics, "How in hell could you have missed this?", and to the previous owner, "I believe you deceived me about the condition of this aircraft," and base further decisions on their responses.
 
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MJW_Pilot said:
I think not getting a lawyer involved is key. We had a major issue with a repair cost sky rocketing 3x the original quote. We had a number of calls with them and was able to reduce the crazy bill down to something reasonable. The biggest issue is how you might be able to get some money from the past IAs with out bringing lawyers into. Even if they would reimburse you the cost of their previous annual it would help. Good luck!
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I’m honest and there’s no way you’d get squat from me. That would be admitting fault, opening Pandora’s box. Someone that did this intentionally certainly isn’t going to give up any easier.
 
Salty said:
I’m honest and there’s no way you’d get squat from me. That would be admitting fault, opening Pandora’s box. Someone that did this intentionally certainly isn’t going to give up any easier.
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Ah, and the fine line of honesty. It's tough to define and maintain. I would feel really bad if I had unknowingly sold someone something with the deficiencies the OP ended up with. I would probably give him his money back.
 
PaulS said:
Ah, and the fine line of honesty. It's tough to define and maintain. I would feel really bad if I had unknowingly sold someone something with the deficiencies the OP ended up with. I would probably give him his money back.
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If I'd done it unknowingly, why would I suddenly think it was true, just because he says so? If I suspected it, then it wasn't unknowingly.
 
Salty said:
If I'd done it unknowingly, why would I suddenly think it was true, just because he says so? If I suspected it, then it wasn't unknowingly.
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I'm assuming for your example it was done unknowingly. As far as it being true, very easy to determine. If I knew I had something like this and was trying to sell, I would disclose it before the sale.
 
To continue the line of thought, I'm honest, so I wouldn't knowingly sell a plane in that condition without disclosing its condition.

*Paul beat me to it.
 
Tom-D said:
Who else? isn't that the guy who missed the hazard?
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It's the last guy to miss the hazard...or knew about it, signed it off anyway. Don't think the FAA is going to like either one very much.
 
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