Teach primary students Steep Spirals?

brcase said:
So what does that mean? The only time you might come close to not maintaining positive load factor is in the push over into the descent. So my (and others) best interpretation is to roll into the descent but then the turning is optional to get to your desired landing area. Notice it does not say "maintain a bank"

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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“When initiating the descent, a bank of approximately 30 to 45° should be established to maintain positive load factors (G forces) on the airplane.“
 
midlifeflyer said:
Now we know a good reason not to teach them to student pilots. Even certificated pilots can't agree in what they actually are :D :confused::p:Do_O
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Emergency descents and unusual attitude recoveries are two areas where there’s tremendous negative transfer that has to be overcome when we transition people into jets.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Emergency descents and unusual attitude recoveries are two areas where there’s tremendous negative transfer that has to be overcome when we transition people into jets.
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That's not surprising. OTOH, some might say in light of some high profile "failed to fly the airplane" incidents, there isn't enough positive transfer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Now we know a good reason not to teach them to student pilots. Even certificated pilots can't agree in what they actually are :D :confused::p:Do_O
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Yup... love aviation forums where we start discussing the virtues of an orange and wind up arguing about the cooking of the sister of the farmer who owns the orchard.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's not surprising. OTOH, some might say in light of some high profile "failed to fly the airplane" incidents, there isn't enough positive transfer.
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Definitely true. Sometimes it seems like they’re trying to activate an accelerator pump coming down the ILS. ;)
 
AggieMike88 said:
Yup... love aviation forums where we start discussing the virtues of an orange and wind up arguing about the cooking of the sister of the farmer who owns the orchard.
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“Cooking” the farmer’s sister? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?:eek:
 
Clip4 said:
“When initiating the descent, a bank of approximately 30 to 45° should be established to maintain positive load factors (G forces) on the airplane.“
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Couldn’t you also roll inverted and pull a split S to maintain positive G? Or is the frowned upon?
 
DoubleD said:
I'll offer a contrary opinion: Steep spirals are an integral part of emergency landing skill set.
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I think students are getting mixed messages.

One CFI told me if I had an engine fire to descend straight ahead just below V ne to blow the fire out. 2nd CFI said to stay at Va , keep positive load on plane, and swing back and forth while descending, or slip it with the nose pointed to the right so you can see. Which is essentially what I believe is the procedure for a non fire emergency decent. Then for a non emergency decent is at max glide speed.

And then there were conflicting instructions on whether to spiral, load by swinging side to side, or fly straight in the emergency decent.
 
Clip4 said:
Read the Commercial ACS page 50 Emergency Descents and the Private Pilot ACS page 51 Emergency Descents.
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Not sure what you are getting at, Emergency descents are not steep spirals and vice a versa.
 
WDD said:
I think students are getting mixed messages.

One CFI told me if I had an engine fire to descend straight ahead just below V ne to blow the fire out. 2nd CFI said to stay at Va , keep positive load on plane, and swing back and forth while descending, or slip it with the nose pointed to the right so you can see. Which is essentially what I believe is the procedure for a non fire emergency decent. Then for a non emergency decent is at max glide speed.

And then there were conflicting instructions on whether to spiral, load by swinging side to side, or fly straight in the emergency decent.
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It depends on the condition of the emergency. If you lost an engine over hostile terrain but found a valley or small clearing you would do a steep spiral to remain over the intended landing area, but getting down quickly isn't the highest priority. If you were on fire over lots of landing spots or water I would do an emergency decent while turning to add drag so that I could lose altitude without exceeding Vne. If I had an engine failure with a chosen landing spot off the nose I would do your standard emergency landing of best glide and aim for the touchdown spot.
 
I do teach recognition of and recovery from a (pseudo) spiral dive as part of unusual attitude/upset recovery in case they get into IMC.

I also teach the steep spiral as a technique that could be used to lose altitude in a glide in the event of an engine failure right above or very near an airport.

Obviously emergency descent training is required.

I do use a sim to teach spin recovery, even though it's not that accurate. Initially, I just put them in the sim spin and observe. Most see the ground coming up fast and think they're in a dive since they neglect the IAS and forget all about the PARE and other stuff I taught them. They just keep pulling up and look confused because the plane won't level out. Even tougher if I put them in simulator in IMC conditions....use the Force Luke!
 
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When I did flight training in 1992, my instructor required spins for him to sign you off for the checkride. Worse yet, I did the spin and got out of the spin, no problem, but he wanted me to come out of it headed toward the airport. The airport was chosen because it was really easy to see. Once I was in the spin, I just wanted out of it and didn’t care where the heck I was headed afterward. He said that wasn’t good enough so we climbed back up to altitude and did it again. I still got it out but came out in a random direction. As a result, he not only did not give me a spin endorsement, but would not sign me off for the checkride. In my logbook he entered as introduction to spins.

He had retired and began instructing. I was his first student. He is still instructing and has soloed some unknown number of students and sent many for checkrides. Students that came along a few years after me said that he mellowed out and stopped doing the hard core stuff. Other examples are stalls from a climbing turn (reasonable IMHO) and he got way up above the end of the runway, turned off the key and pitched back until the prop stopped and had me spiral down to the runway.
 
dtuuri said:
Meh, you're gonna have a hard enough time just teaching 'em turns around a point. Just sayin'..
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Grum.Man said:
Not sure what you are getting at, Emergency descents are not steep spirals and vice a versa.
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I'm a lowly pre-solo (but close) student pilot... I know, I know... you've all been there at some point. I find all this discussion and plenty more in POA fascinating and informative in some manner (some good, some not as much, haha). My student hours that are leading up to my pre-solo are probably on the high side. I am learning quickly, but in essence I think my CFI is on the conservative side - and honestly - I don't mind one bit.

Anyway, we've spent a lot of time ingraining emergency ops as well as all of the fundamentals/basics. Turning around a point, pretty simple once you do it with a good stiff wind a few times. Emergency descents, fun coming down that quick (first time was a little alarming). Steep spiral was different than emergency decent for sure, as found in my airplanes maneuvers manual the club uses... Both reduce throttle to idle. Emergency decent uses full flaps and maximized air speed with flaps (115mph is Vfe in my case). Steep spiral is max glide (80mph is Vg in my case) obviously with no flaps. Emergency descent is intended to descend as soon and as rapidly as possible and my maneuvers say there's "no specific standard" for this maneuver. The steep spiral is intended to improve techniques for power-off turns, wind drift control, planning, orientation, and division of attention. It has a some standards listed.

As an aside, my maneuvers manual for the plane states the Emergency Descent is "demonstrated". That said, my instructor believes not only should it be demonstrated (on his part) but performed on mine. Seems reasonable to me.
 
D. Ellsworth said:
As an aside, my maneuvers manual for the plane states the Emergency Descent is "demonstrated". That said, my instructor believes not only should it be demonstrated (on his part) but performed on mine. Seems reasonable to me.
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It's good he's having you perform it since you might have to do it.

On my checkride, the DPE required me to do a steep spiral / emergency descent / call-it-whatever. Simulated engine fire near a good landing site (Orlando North airport), spiral down with about 40 to 45 degrees bank, airspeed in the yellow arc staying under Vne. I had to take the plane all the way down and put it on the runway.
 
Half Fast said:
It's good he's having you perform it since you might have to do it.

On my checkride, the DPE required me to do a steep spiral / emergency descent / call-it-whatever. Simulated engine fire near a good landing site (Orlando North airport), spiral down with about 40 to 45 degrees bank, airspeed in the yellow arc staying under Vne. I had to take the plane all the way down and put it on the runway.
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Our club has our own DPE, who owns the club and the planes, so I know him through the club which will be a good thing (take out a little of that aspect of the nervousness). We fly out of a non-towered airport so the communications have been relatively easy (no one giving instructions over the radio). Last week was my first trip to a Delta class airport and was VERY glad my CFI took the radios while I flew and landed the plane in a new/unfamiliar airport (which was exciting by itself). Next trip we'll likely go back or maybe go over to Kissimmee so I'm sure I'll be jumping in the middle of that - definitely one of my weakest areas.
 
If you want to get down fast you want to reduce bank angle and pitch for just shy of VNE, that’s what DZs have been doing for a living for a long while. You can get about a mile a minute.

With some of my old students we would do a descending spiral just before the threshold, I’d have them time it to flatten that last turn, roll out and touch down. Good times and good way to really have a feel for the plane.


Another good one, but a pain to set up is dropping a TP roll out and cutting it with the wing.
 
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D. Ellsworth said:
Our club has our own DPE, who owns the club and the planes, so I know him through the club which will be a good thing (take out a little of that aspect of the nervousness). We fly out of a non-towered airport so the communications have been relatively easy (no one giving instructions over the radio). Last week was my first trip to a Delta class airport and was VERY glad my CFI took the radios while I flew and landed the plane in a new/unfamiliar airport (which was exciting by itself). Next trip we'll likely go back or maybe go over to Kissimmee so I'm sure I'll be jumping in the middle of that - definitely one of my weakest areas.
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Where are you training from? I used First Landings in Apopka.
 
James331 said:
If you want to get down fast you want to reduce bank angle and pitch for just shy of VNE, that’s what DZs have been doing for a living for a long while. You can get about a mile a minute.

With some of my old students we would do a descending spiral just before the threshold, I’d have them time it to flatten that last turn, roll out and touch down. Good times and good way to really have a feel for the plane.
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That's close to what we did, except I rolled out somewhere above 1000 feet and did a short base and final to landing. Very short final with a hard slip most of the way to the threshold. I held about 5 knots below Vne during the spiral, but slowed down after rolling out so I could put in flaps as I set up for the landing.
 
Half Fast said:
Where are you training from? I used First Landings in Apopka.
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I'm not training with a formal school/141. I joined a flying club in Valkaria and fly out of X59. The Club has a few CFIs and a DPE.

Half Fast said:
That's close to what we did, except I rolled out somewhere above 1000 feet and did a short base and final to landing. Very short final with a hard slip most of the way to the threshold. I held about 5 knots below Vne during the spiral, but slowed down after rolling out so I could put in flaps as I set up for the landing.
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Couple questions on this approach...

1) You were doing a steep spiral just below Vne. Or maybe you weren't performing a spiral (maneuver)? If it was a spiral, that seems to go against what I've learned as to not exceed Va for performing maneuvers. Above that there is a risk of structural design/integrity failure etc. Can you expand or maybe let me know what I'm missing?

2) I'm guessing in different planes, the following is different? You mentioned doing a slip and it read as if the slip was performed after flaps were extended. I'm training in a Piper PA28-180 and the manual states to NEVER do a forward slip with flaps extended. Is this specific to this plane or is this normally not a good idea due to added stress? It also states a forward slip should not be used to lose altitude because of poor planning (I know emergencies are different... unplanned).
 
D. Ellsworth said:
Couple questions on this approach...

1) You were doing a steep spiral just below Vne. Or maybe you weren't performing a spiral (maneuver)? If it was a spiral, that seems to go against what I've learned as to not exceed Va for performing maneuvers. Above that there is a risk of structural design/integrity failure etc. Can you expand or maybe let me know what I'm missing?

2) I'm guessing in different planes, the following is different? You mentioned doing a slip and it read as if the slip was performed after flaps were extended. I'm training in a Piper PA28-180 and the manual states to NEVER do a forward slip with flaps extended. Is this specific to this plane or is this normally not a good idea due to added stress? It also states a forward slip should not be used to lose altitude because of poor planning (I know emergencies are different... unplanned).
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1) You're not missing anything. At Va, the risk of structural failure is from a full scale deflection of a flight control or from turbulence. We were in smooth air, and at a bank of ~40 degrees we weren't near an excessive g load. Take a look at a flight envelope diagram and remember that load factor goes by (1/cosine). A 40 degree bank is only 1.3g.

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2) Yes, different airplane. I was in a Tecnam P92, and they can be slipped with full flaps. In some aircraft (apparently the PA28-180, for example), the extended flaps may disrupt air flow over the elevator when in a slip. As with most aeronautical topics, this has been extensively argued on PoA. For amusement and confusement, see https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/forward-slipping-with-flaps-down-low-wing.78856/ .

Regarding "It also states a forward slip should not be used to lose altitude because of poor planning," during a fire I consider using a slip to get down rapidly to be very good planning. It allowed me to fly a very short and quick final and get down fast.
 
Half Fast said:
1) You're not missing anything...

2) Yes, different airplane...

Regarding "It also states a forward slip should not be used to lose altitude because of poor planning," during a fire I consider using a slip to get down rapidly to be very good planning. It allowed me to fly a very short and quick final and get down fast.
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Thanks for the further information - good stuff. Much appreciated!
 
Half Fast said:
We were in smooth air, and at a bank of ~40 degrees we weren't near an excessive g load. Take a look at a flight envelope diagram and remember that load factor goes by (1/cosine). A 40 degree bank is only 1.3g.
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Bear in mind that chart reflects load factor in a level turn at those bank angles. In a descent, like we’re discussing here, the load factor would be much less for any given bank angle.

As an aside, it’s rare that I don’t slip at some point on final. Not because of poor planning, but because I like the extra options a slightly steeper approach allows.
 
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FastEddieB said:
In a descent, like we’re discussing here, the load factor would be much less for any given bank angle.
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I'm surprised you would say that. Isn't the load factor dependent on the bank angle in a stable descent?
 
dtuuri said:
I'm surprised you would say that. Isn't the load factor dependent on the bank angle in a stable descent?
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I don’t think so.

At 60° bank in a steep spiral, there’s no way 2 g’s is generated, for instance.

It’s the back pressure needed to maintain altitude that generates the g’s/load factor.
 
FastEddieB said:
At 60° bank in a steep spiral, there’s no way 2 g’s is generated, for instance.

It’s the back pressure needed to maintain altitude that generates the g’s/load factor.
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I use back pressure to curve my flight path. :)

MauleSkinner said:
I guess some pilots should have AOA indicators, others should have g meters, huh?
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:dunno: When I had g meters I must not have looked at them when I should have. When I had angle of attack meters, I did not look at them at all.

I'll defer to @AggieMike88 to explain who's right. As the OP, I think he ought to step up, since he's also working on his CFI and can use the practice.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
When I did flight training in 1992, my instructor required spins for him to sign you off for the checkride. Worse yet, I did the spin and got out of the spin, no problem, but he wanted me to come out of it headed toward the airport. The airport was chosen because it was really easy to see. Once I was in the spin, I just wanted out of it and didn’t care where the heck I was headed afterward. He said that wasn’t good enough so we climbed back up to altitude and did it again. I still got it out but came out in a random direction. As a result, he not only did not give me a spin endorsement, but would not sign me off for the checkride. In my logbook he entered as introduction to spins.
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My instructor also demanded (and still does) spins of primary students back then.

The spin-to-a-heading thing is actually easy but yours sounds like they didn’t teach you where to look with your eyeballs. Which made it a much more ridiculous experience than it needed to be. (Straight down is useless and you need a good landmark almost out near the horizon...)

He didn’t know how to teach it properly, is all that was. Definitely not very “hard core” when taught correctly.

When I went up in the Citabria a couple years ago, I found spins and spins to a heading to still be in the brain cells.

If you haven’t, it would be good to remove that awful memory by flying with someone who can properly teach it. Taught right, it’s not a frightening experience at all for most folks.

Part of that is showing that there’s no rush to get out of it with proper altitude. Let it wind up and show the instant ability to stop it in most aircraft we would normally be using to do it in.

“Okay want to stop this heading north, we know it’ll take about 90 degrees from when we input anti-spin controls to stop the rotation and unstall the wing and that big farm over there is East so when it’s at the top of the windscreen we do this... and now we are in a dive headed north...”

Of course that’s well after the basic entry and one turn exit demo.

People tend to be scared when they think things are uncontrollable. Spins in trainers and docile aerobatic aircraft are quite controllable. Just another aspect of three dimensional flying.

It’s a shame people think they’re “hard core” now.
 
denverpilot said:
(Straight down is useless and you need a good landmark almost out near the horizon...)
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Different strokes...

Teaching 3-turn spins in Citabrias in S FL, we did look straight down. We had lots of E/W and N/S roads and section lines NW of Miami. We’d start out on a cardinal heading, then enter the spin and count, “One half, one, one and a half, two, two and a half...” and just about then start recovery to end up back on our original heading after 3 turns.

I’ll stipulate it might not work as well without a road or roads for reference, but I’d think almost anywhere you can find a road to line up with for reference.
 
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