Another gps question

Archimago

Archimago

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Archimago
I know that an iPad connected to a waas gps transponder is not a substitute for a legal waas gps for ifr procedures but.... can the iPad shoot gps approaches as practice under vfr during vfr conditions with a safety pilot. If so, can someone point me to source for this?
Thanks!
 
Before giving you an answer what type of approaches would you be doing and How do you plan to get the proper approach waypoints loaded in the flight plan.
 
Archimago said:
I know that an iPad connected to a waas gps transponder is not a substitute for a legal waas gps for ifr procedures but.... can the iPad shoot gps approaches as practice under vfr during vfr conditions with a safety pilot. If so, can someone point me to source for this?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Define “shoot approach.” Do you mean get a clearance or approval from ATC? Or just get out the chart and ‘follow’ it. I’d guess that if you got a clearance for the approach, a case could be made there is something illegal about it.
 
The rules tell you what you can’t do.
 
Would one of your goals be to have it count towards currency??
 
There is no source for which IFR operations can be conducted in VMC without appropriate equipment. What you do in VMC under VFR with regard to approaches is up to you. Just don’t ask for or accept an IFR or approach clearance when doing it.

It also doesn’t officially count for anything.
 
Of course you can. The iPad is probably more accurate than my ancient panel mount IFR GPS, but not quite as legal. But anything goes in VMC. Might as well practice how you'll wind up doing it in the real.
 
Does your app have a CDI/VDI? Without those, I'm not sure what you'd gain by shooting an iPad approach.
 
Interesting question. Does the transponder provide the IPad with WAAS accurate GPS altitude as well as course? And, if you've got the premium ForeFlight version that gives you synthetic vision, is that also WAAS accurate? (Confirming that no, I'm not going to out and fly IFR with an I Pad. Just wondering how accurate it would be? Better or as good as the the instruments in the panel?)-
 
MauleSkinner said:
It also doesn’t officially count for anything.
Click to expand...
Eh? He said with a safety pilot, so I assume he's under the hood. It counts as instrument time for sure as well as your holds and intercepts if you do them. I'm not even sure why they wouldn't count for the approaches.
 
flyingron said:
Eh? He said with a safety pilot, so I assume he's under the hood. It counts as instrument time for sure as well as your holds and intercepts if you do them. I'm not even sure why they wouldn't count for the approaches.
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I've heard this one both ways. The "no" is that counting an approach requires the equipment the approach requires. The yes is why wouldn't practicing for an emergency count?
 
flyingron said:
Eh? He said with a safety pilot, so I assume he's under the hood. It counts as instrument time for sure as well as your holds and intercepts if you do them. I'm not even sure why they wouldn't count for the approaches.
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Limiting the discussion to the OP’s question about approaches, I would say he didn’t fly an instrument approach because barring other guidance, there aren’t approaches in the database of the iPad GPS, and the equipment used not only isn’t legal for IFR use but there’s no way to certify it.

To me it’s like building an NDB approach using the local commercial radio station, doing six of those, and calling yourself current.
 
There are approaches in foreflight. Not sure why flying the purple line in FF is any worse off than flying it on a GNS430. Yeah, you can't do that legal IFR.
 
Yeah, there are lots of approaches in Foreflight, and it'll even tell you which one is better for the prevailing winds (assuming you have a Stratus or equivalent). the magenta line is about a mile wide, same as the CDI for your IFR GPS. Where it gets dicey is when you get close. Your IFR GPS will increase its sensitivity to I believe 300 feet on either side of the CDI. The iThingie won't. So you can be on the magenta line and still be a half mile off.
 
As was noted above the only difference is the CDI scaling, which if you use ForeFlight is fixed at enroute scaling (1 dot = 1nm) which is pretty coarse but should be still very usable and valuable for training purposes on an LNAV approach. You won't be able to get a feel for tracking an LPV or LP approach and I would definitely not use it for that as it may instill some false confidence. Even a non-WAAS gps drops to about 500 ft per dot at the FAF, so be aware of the scaling difference. If you're one bar width off in ForeFlight that can matter.

AIM 1-1-18 has info on the scaling differences, which have some nuances and are different for non-WAAS and WAAS GPSs. The most sensitive a WAAS GPS gets is 350ft to each side of centerline is full deflection near the runway.
 
Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. The reason I was asking is because I am in a pending sale for an ifr certified aircraft which does not have gps. (so Vors, GS, DME). I am planning on doing my IFR training and so was curious whether I could use the Stratus ESGi with my ipad to practice GPS approaches under VFR conditions with a safety pilot... i.e . not actual IMC. My thoughts being that although I couldn't use the approaches on any practical test or for currency, I would at least have an understanding of how they work and eventually down the road I could add a GPS unit (at great expense of course). I believe there are GPS approaches that are not LPV but I could be wrong.
 
Archimago said:
Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies. The reason I was asking is because I am in a pending sale for an ifr certified aircraft which does not have gps. (so Vors, GS, DME). I am planning on doing my IFR training and so was curious whether I could use the Stratus ESGi with my ipad to practice GPS approaches under VFR conditions with a safety pilot... i.e . not actual IMC. My thoughts being that although I couldn't use the approaches on any practical test or for currency, I would at least have an understanding of how they work and eventually down the road I could add a GPS unit (at great expense of course). I believe there are GPS approaches that are not LPV but I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
I would suggest waiting until you have an IFR certified GPS before learning them. If you can fly a VOR, localizer, and ILS, you can fly GPS approaches. Most of the differences are things that you’re not going to learn using an unapproved gps.

I’m sure there will be a little bit of discussion during the oral, even without a GPS in the airplane, but again, the knowledge isn’t what you’d gain practicing with an unapproved unit.
 
There is zero to be gained attempting to fly a GPS approach off a IPad. It has no training value. You need to learn and understand how to set up both the approaches, holding and missed approaches in certified equipment. You need to understand how the equipment interfaces and sequences waypoints and provides glide path info.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I would suggest waiting until you have an IFR certified GPS before learning them. If you can fly a VOR, localizer, and ILS, you can fly GPS approaches. Most of the differences are things that you’re not going to learn using an unapproved gps.

I’m sure there will be a little bit of discussion during the oral, even without a GPS in the airplane, but again, the knowledge isn’t what you’d gain practicing with an unapproved unit.
Click to expand...
That’s pretty crystal clear, much appreciated.
 
Jeff767 said:
There is zero to be gained attempting to fly a GPS approach off a IPad. It has no training value. You need to learn and understand how to set up both the approaches, holding and missed approaches in certified equipment. You need to understand how the equipment interfaces and sequences waypoints and provides glide path info.
Click to expand...
Thank you.
 
Flying the VOR and ILS approaches are harder IMO. So doing your training in a IFR plane with only these options will make you better flying the approaches. The gps approaches are only really about the buttonology
And understanding the limitations of what is published on the approach.
Our club plane is IFR cert with waas 430. Went up yesterday for a post annual shakedown with a safety pilot and purposely shot the localizer approach just to do something different. Kept me a bit busier and on my toes
 
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