B-17 Down at Bradley Int'l Airport

They generally won't even bother to contact you and ask about it later unless you cause some trouble (like closing a single-runway airport) and it's a slow day. I doubt the FAA entered the pilots' decisionmaking at all, and if it did, that's bad.
That's not entirely true and some of us who have had recent emergencies would say the exact opposite. Based on my experience declaring an emergency, you can expect a call from the FSDO within a day or two inquiring about the nature of the emergency.

If you have nothing to hide, it's a non-event. They may have some follow up questions, but it isn't like anyone is looking to shut you down.

In my case (declared an emergency for rough running/loss of power in the T6) I was given priority and made an uneventful landing. The following Monday, the Atlanta FSDO called and wanted to know the details of the power loss to see if they needed to explore any 'emergency AD'. They seemed satisfied with the maintenance shop's explanation that it was a carburetor problem.
 
I don't believe there is any indication at this point that a failure to declare an emergency (if indeed there were such a failure) is any way contributed to the accident, is there?

No. If anything, it would be the failure to treat a "minor" problem as an emergency, which is pretty much the second-nature thing us pilots do. But, in many cases, we really don't know. Does the engine that doesn't run well with the electric fuel pump off have a failed mechanical pump, or does it have a breached fuel line that's pouring fuel onto a hot engine? You just don't know, but most of us would treat it as the former. I wish I could think of an easy solution to that.

The ONLY press conferences worth watching are the ones hosted by the on-scene NTSB lead investigator.

Meh... Just changes the script to "No flight plan was filed..."
 
That's not entirely true and some of us who have had recent emergencies would say the exact opposite. Based on my experience declaring an emergency, you can expect a call from the FSDO within a day or two inquiring about the nature of the emergency.

If you have nothing to hide, it's a non-event. They may have some follow up questions, but it isn't like anyone is looking to shut you down.

In my case (declared an emergency for rough running/loss of power in the T6) I was given priority and made an uneventful landing. The following Monday, the Atlanta FSDO called and wanted to know the details of the power loss to see if they needed to explore any 'emergency AD'. They seemed satisfied with the maintenance shop's explanation that it was a carburetor problem.

It certainly isn't every emergency, though, and they certainly aren't going to be shutting down the rest of your day of rides on the weekend like the previous poster suggested they were trying to avoid.
 
The ONLY press conferences worth watching are the ones hosted by the on-scene NTSB lead investigator.

Not even sure that’s needed, easier to read the report.

Press conferences are some weird leftover of the pre-internet days that used to be useful for reporters to ask questions, maybe. But I haven’t heard an intelligent question from a reporter at one in a long time, and even if they ask, the answer is prepared and doesn’t actually answer it.

We also have direct dissemination of other info like LiveATC recordings at many airports now, and this one is no exception. The recording sounds like the first responders were pretty well organized and moved out quickly. The Medevac helicopter was there in just a few minutes. My dispatcher ear could tell they weren’t super happy with what they were finding, but they had good radio discipline.

The internet has changed things for better or worse. But once the NTSB person is at a podium the report is on the website. We don’t have to wait to have it mailed to us to read it anymore, which was what one had to do when I started flying. Now it’s just click on a website...
 
That's not entirely true and some of us who have had recent emergencies would say the exact opposite. Based on my experience declaring an emergency, you can expect a call from the FSDO within a day or two inquiring about the nature of the emergency.

If you have nothing to hide, it's a non-event. They may have some follow up questions, but it isn't like anyone is looking to shut you down.

In my case (declared an emergency for rough running/loss of power in the T6) I was given priority and made an uneventful landing. The following Monday, the Atlanta FSDO called and wanted to know the details of the power loss to see if they needed to explore any 'emergency AD'. They seemed satisfied with the maintenance shop's explanation that it was a carburetor problem.

That’s exactly what happened with with my emergency (gear stuck). FSDO called the next day and just wanted info on what happened. He could’ve sharp shooted my decision making on continuing to my destination but he didn’t care. Helped that he was an AF HH-60 guy, so we talked shop for a bit.;)
 
I don't know why a fundraising flight would be inherently more risky than any other type of flight. Unless the suggestion is tat they should not be flying because of equipment, maintenance or crew issues.

I don’t believe they are when done professionally.

The sentence was a nod to the FAA’s concerns that fundraising flights aren’t always done to the supposedly higher air carrier/commercial standards, and their rumblings about it over the years when accidents happen.

Personally I think most of the restoration groups do a fine job mitigating risks that are inherent in flying old aircraft. But there are going to be risks, and they’re objectively higher than stacking passengers like cordwood in an Airbus or Boeing as self loading cargo.

In the long term we all know it’ll be truly decided by insurance companies and lawyers.
 
In the long term we all know it’ll be truly decided by insurance companies and lawyers.
This is the truth and is what has me concerned as a warbird operator. An incident like this could result in warbird ride programs being unable to afford or even obtain insurance.

If you want to ground flying warbirds, that’s how you do it.
 
This is the truth and is what has me concerned as a warbird operator. An incident like this could result in warbird ride programs being unable to afford or even obtain insurance.

If you want to ground flying warbirds, that’s how you do it.
It's honestly ridiculous that we have such draconian responses to aviation accidents.. they are high-profile and highly visible events which does not bode well for the industry as a whole.

Ultimately life has some inherent risks to it.. some activities more than others.
 
I’m both happy that a news reporter got quite a bit right, and concerned about the content on this one...

https://www.courant.com/breaking-ne...0191003-ldarjpewife6fj7hafiqz7zecy-story.html
Talking to some very knowledgeable B-17 guys, what those people are describing is blowing out the mags with compressed air. The magnetos on the B-17 are apparently very susceptible to moisture and occasionally need to be dried out before starting. That is probably what was going on.

The kind of thing that in itself is not a big deal, but could seem so to an inexperienced person like a passenger.

It might explain the comment on the ATC recording about wanting to return to ‘blow it out’. Could be they thought they were have a magneto problem and that’s why they requested to return.
 
Talking to some very knowledgeable B-17 guys, what those people are describing is blowing out the mags with compressed air. The magnetos on the B-17 are apparently very susceptible to moisture and occasionally need to be dried out before starting. That is probably what was going on.

The kind of thing that in itself is not a big deal, but could seem so to an inexperienced person like a passenger.

It might explain the comment on the ATC recording about wanting to return to ‘blow it out’. Could be they thought they were have a magneto problem and that’s why they requested to return.

Understood. I could tell it was something commonplace by the wording and behavior. I was more concerned about the bureaucracy language the reporter got out of the regulators... Safety society... also annoyed at the mention of the Age 65 rule which is touted as a safety measure indirectly in the article and it’s much more a labor battle than anything particularly about safety these days. Sigh.
 
Talking to some very knowledgeable B-17 guys, what those people are describing is blowing out the mags with compressed air. The magnetos on the B-17 are apparently very susceptible to moisture and occasionally need to be dried out before starting. That is probably what was going on.

The kind of thing that in itself is not a big deal, but could seem so to an inexperienced person like a passenger.

It might explain the comment on the ATC recording about wanting to return to ‘blow it out’. Could be they thought they were have a magneto problem and that’s why they requested to return.
Thanks for that explanation. I was wondering what he meant by the "blow it out" comment when I listened to the ATC tape. I assumed he was talking about clearing the rough running engine, but wasn't sure how.
 
It's honestly ridiculous that we have such draconian responses to aviation accidents.. they are high-profile and highly visible events which does not bode well for the industry as a whole. Ultimately life has some inherent risks to it.. some activities more than others.

2016 NTSB data shows an average of 102 people die per day in car accidents in the US. This far greater than aviation accidents of any type, and yet nobody gives a relative rip about car accidents.
 
2016 NTSB data shows an average of 102 people die per day in car accidents in the US. This far greater than aviation accidents of any type, and yet nobody gives a relative rip about car accidents.

Heath Ledger's Joker character in "The Dark Knight" actually summed this perfectly:

"You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!"

Something happens so frequently, such as car accidents, people pay no attention to it unless it affects them personally. Think of the current vaping death "epidemic". A couple of dozen people nationwide have died due to vaping. Thousands have died due to regular smoking. Which one is the media talking about?
 
Talking to some very knowledgeable B-17 guys, what those people are describing is blowing out the mags with compressed air. The magnetos on the B-17 are apparently very susceptible to moisture and occasionally need to be dried out before starting. That is probably what was going on.

The kind of thing that in itself is not a big deal, but could seem so to an inexperienced person like a passenger.

It might explain the comment on the ATC recording about wanting to return to ‘blow it out’. Could be they thought they were have a magneto problem and that’s why they requested to return.

And if this turns out to be the case, it's another example of why we as pilots should never accept flying an aircraft with issues such as magnetos very susceptible to moisture. Fix the problem.

I also watched a lady on tv this morning, who was watching the startup and whose husband died on the flight, she said she was worried about the flight before it left because they couldn't start 2 engines and had to "work" on the engines to get them going. She thought the flight would be cancelled, but they got them started and left.
 
No. If anything, it would be the failure to treat a "minor" problem as an emergency, which is pretty much the second-nature thing us pilots do. But, in many cases, we really don't know. Does the engine that doesn't run well with the electric fuel pump off have a failed mechanical pump, or does it have a breached fuel line that's pouring fuel onto a hot engine? You just don't know, but most of us would treat it as the former. I wish I could think of an easy solution to that.
If PoA is a barometer, many pilots don't know what an emergency is. Both scenarios you described are. "Engine running not quite" right is. "Something concerns me and I'd like to come back and land outside of sequence" is. Most pilots seem to think that it's only an emergency if you're in distress. Not so. If you're asking for help from ATC outside the normal course because of a safety concern, it's an emergency: "A condition of being concerned about
safety and of requiring timely but not immediate
assistance; a potential distress condition."
 
And if this turns out to be the case, it's another example of why we as pilots should never accept flying an aircraft with issues such as magnetos very susceptible to moisture. Fix the problem.
Sounds more like a design issue than a particular issue with that plane. Kinda hard to "Not accept flying an aircraft" if they're all that way.
 
Sounds more like a design issue than a particular issue with that plane. Kinda hard to "Not accept flying an aircraft" if they're all that way.

Hopefully if that was the issue then the NTSB will find a real expert to write about it. But in my many years of dealing with magnetos and breaker points moisture infiltrating is always a problem and I'm having a hard time believing that the design is bad. Even though the tech is old by our standards now, this technology had been around (mags and breaker points) for at least 30 years when this aircraft was built and they knew the importance of keeping the inside of mags dry.
 
If PoA is a barometer, many pilots don't know what an emergency is. Both scenarios you described are. "Engine running not quite" right is. "Something concerns me and I'd like to come back and land outside of sequence" is. Most pilots seem to think that it's only an emergency if you're in distress. Not so. If you're asking for help from ATC outside the normal course because of a safety concern, it's an emergency: "A condition of being concerned about
safety and of requiring timely but not immediate
assistance; a potential distress condition."

I keep hearing pilots concerned about dealing with the FAA after declaring, maybe with good reason, but I have made a conscious decision that I will never worry about that in an unusual situation. I also hear about pilots worrying about keeping ATC happy when dealing with them. My experience is some of these guys have bad days and it seeps through in their interactions. So I've resolved not to care if a controller is ****y, my job as a pilot is to get what I need within the rules, not impress a controller.
 
That's not entirely true and some of us who have had recent emergencies would say the exact opposite. Based on my experience declaring an emergency, you can expect a call from the FSDO within a day or two inquiring about the nature of the emergency.
Personally I was surprised when FSDO called me. It was winter and I aborted a takeoff because airspeed indicator was at zero during takeoff roll. The conversation was professional, I simply explained there was ice in the pitot tube that I could not see during preflight. Since then I have installed a heated pitot tube..:rolleyes:
 
And if this turns out to be the case, it's another example of why we as pilots should never accept flying an aircraft with issues such as magnetos very susceptible to moisture. Fix the problem.

I also watched a lady on tv this morning, who was watching the startup and whose husband died on the flight, she said she was worried about the flight before it left because they couldn't start 2 engines and had to "work" on the engines to get them going. She thought the flight would be cancelled, but they got them started and left.
Yeah, this lady would be really concerned about some of the hot-start engines out there. As far as I'm concerned, it could be non-issue stuff. There was one summer when a particular plane / engine combination with an IO-360 had crazy hot-start issues that sometimes took 15 minutes to get right. I finally figured out a perfect combination that seemed to work 95% of the time right away, but it took a while to figure out what that plane wanted. Never had any issues with that engine once we got it running.
 
2016 NTSB data shows an average of 102 people die per day in car accidents in the US. This far greater than aviation accidents of any type, and yet nobody gives a relative rip about car accidents.
This is always my "go to" as well.. but people are desensitized to the risks of driving. And unfortunately as a percentage, or "adjusted rate" I've read that GA flying is about as safe as riding on a motorcycle, if you look at miles traveled (it was either that or hours driven). The problem there is though that GA presents such a wide array of pilot types and activities that I believe that data like that is skewed against us..

Anyway, I will always feel more comfortable in the air, whether GA or commercial.
 
Yeah, this lady would be really concerned about some of the hot-start engines out there. As far as I'm concerned, it could be non-issue stuff. There was one summer when a particular plane / engine combination with an IO-360 had crazy hot-start issues that sometimes took 15 minutes to get right. I finally figured out a perfect combination that seemed to work 95% of the time right away, but it took a while to figure out what that plane wanted. Never had any issues with that engine once we got it running.

That's true, I was just reacting to the moisture in the mags deal. Too soon to know. The Cirrus engines can have bad hot start issues until you figure it out, then it's a nothing burger to get the going.
 
Anyway, I will always feel more comfortable in the air, whether GA or commercial.

Just curious, by why is this? Gut feeling? We know the statistics are stacked against us. Flying is simply risky. If you're 6 times or so safer than the average pilot, you might be approaching the safety level of driving. But in that case you're probably a safer driver too.
 
Just curious, by why is this? Gut feeling? We know the statistics are stacked against us. Flying is simply risky. If you're 6 times or so safer than the average pilot, you might be approaching the safety level of driving. But in that case you're probably a safer driver too.

A whole lot of traffic death are related to the actions of someone else and there are a whole lot of those to chose from, junkies, drunks, sleepy, distracted, careless/wreckless, lack of knowledge, illegals, then there are equipment failures, animals etc. A lot of airplane accident deaths are related to pilot's own skill and luck.

I almost never leave town in a car, no road rage, no junkies, drunks, sleepy, distracted, careless/wreckless, lack of knowledge, illegals, and I see way fewer animal threats. Flying is just better all around IMHO.
 
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The whole thing just sucks. 9-0-9 was at our field a few weeks ago. My kids and friends enjoyed watching the fleet leave and fly that week. Maintenance wise Those planes are better cared for then all the planes at my field.
Bad things can happen. Doesn’t have to be anyone’s fault.
 
Don't specifically remember with the B-17, but with the EAA Tri-Motor they go do a full run-up, no passengers on board, before they beginning flying activity for the day.
 
Just curious, by why is this? Gut feeling? We know the statistics are stacked against us. Flying is simply risky. If you're 6 times or so safer than the average pilot, you might be approaching the safety level of driving. But in that case you're probably a safer driver too.

I've asked myself the same thing.. here are my reasons:
-basic reasons:
*according to https://carsurance.net/blog/car-accident-statistics/ the greatest causes of car crashes are drunk driving, speed, distractions, and bad weather. Outside of weather these factors really don't play a part in aviation.. itemizing it:

--drunk driving: okay, I don't drink and fly (nor do I drink and drive).. however, if I'm driving home Friday night at 10 from a hot date (sober) there's a decent chance some idiot will be drunk leaving the bars in Pacific Beach, run a red, and T-Bone me. This simply will not happen flying.

--speed: outside of understanding your v speeds and all that jazz, AoA, etc., speeding is really not a dangerous thing in flying.. hitting a ramp at 65 mph vs 35 mph can send you into a ditch, and kill you. Shooting your coordinated turn at 160 knots base to final vs 120 knots won't kill you, but you'll likely have to go around since you've blown through final (most likely)

--distractions: outside of critical phases of flight aviation is much more forgiving for distractions. Sitting for 3 hrs on AP in cruise you are free to chat with your friend(s), take photos, look for a different XM station, grab an approach plate and review it, get lost in the AFD reading about the airport.. arguing with your friend which FBO to go to, etc. And in all this time you won't hit a pedestrian, tree, another car, etc. You can crank down a proper cheeseburge in the plane with both hands and it will have no effect on the safety of flight. Try that in a car!

--bad weather: this applies to us, but can be very easily mitigated by a *responsible* pilot checking their weather and knowing it is not beyond their (or their aircraft's) capabilities

Going deeper than that:
--everyone is going to think they're a "better than average" pilot. But out of 8/10 people I fly with I'm the more proficient pilot. I fly 120 hrs / yr and many of these flights are 300 nm legs or greater in various weather. There are 3 people I have flown with (out of probably 30) I consider my equivalent or superior pilots, two of them post here. I get good experience and take the time to stay current, preload frequencies, brief plates, geek out on the weather, pay attention to temp dew point spread, etc. Most people I fly with don't go into the OCD level of detail and analytics that I do when it comes to flying, I've even been (playfully) mocked for it

--I've been PPL since 17 (flying since 14) and driving since license at 16 (although my brother taught me how to drive stick on their Toyota Paseo when I was probably 12-14).. in that time, granted I've driven many more miles and hours, but I've been involved in one major accident.. 32 car pile up during a winter snow storm. There was literally nothing I could have done to avoid that crash other than take a different road or left at a different time. Had I been in a FIKI plane I could have avoided that accident altogether

Some other factors:
--the plane I fly has a parachute, FIKI, redundant electrical systems, redundant AHRS, turbo, O2. So long as I don't abuse these luxuries or get complacent (yes I switch the CDI to VOR and hand fly my approaches) these add a healthy safety margin for me that my car won't give me

**Yes, I 100% would rather fly to Mammoth from MYF than drive.. time and convenience aside I legitimately feel orders of magnitude safer at 16,000 feet in the safety of my solitude than cruising up Interstate 5 with a hundred distracted losers.
 
--drunk driving: okay, I don't drink and fly (nor do I drink and drive).. however, if I'm driving home Friday night at 10 from a hot date (sober) there's a decent chance some idiot will be drunk leaving the bars in Pacific Beach, run a red, and T-Bone me. This simply will not happen flying.

Don't forget that moron that does T-bone you won't have any lights on either... Then they'll run from the accident if able.


Diving sucks, pure and simple
 
Don't forget that moron that does T-bone you won't have any lights on either... Then they'll run from the accident if able.


Diving sucks, pure and simple
You see this more and more these days.. with the average car having auto lights and their dashboards always fully lit up many people don't notice when the headlight switch goes from Auto to manual.. they drive home at night with a fully lit dashboard (because every new car now wants to destroy your night vision and radiate you with always on LED brilliance) while their headlights are off. People are stupid. Yes. Driving is the pits.
 
...The problem there is though that GA presents such a wide array of pilot types and activities that I believe that data like that is skewed against us...
But motorcyclists fill a broad spectrum as well, from tee-totalling fully-leathered safety freaks, to those who go to the bar on two wheels, to those who believe that running from the cops and putting the video on YT is brillant.
 
Apparently Sen. Blumenthal asked the NTSB to investigate the rules that allow this sort of charity/fundraising operation....

Incoming!!!!
 
Apparently Sen. Blumenthal asked the NTSB to investigate the rules that allow this sort of charity/fundraising operation....

Incoming!!!!
Massachusetts loves banning things.
 
Apparently Sen. Blumenthal asked the NTSB to investigate the rules that allow this sort of charity/fundraising operation....

Incoming!!!!
On the bright side, Blumenthal is not exactly high on the credibility list.
 
Apparently Sen. Blumenthal asked the NTSB to investigate the rules that allow this sort of charity/fundraising operation....

Incoming!!!!

'Never let a crisis go to waste.'

He was taught well. But then, had this been a santas sleigh ride gone over a cliff, he would ask the DMV to outlaw Christmas.
 
This is always my "go to" as well.. but people are desensitized to the risks of driving. And unfortunately as a percentage, or "adjusted rate" I've read that GA flying is about as safe as riding on a motorcycle, if you look at miles traveled (it was either that or hours driven). The problem there is though that GA presents such a wide array of pilot types and activities that I believe that data like that is skewed against us..

Anyway, I will always feel more comfortable in the air, whether GA or commercial.

Your pretty much right on track with you numbers (hours driven vs flying). From the research I did a number of years ago. Over all a small GA airplane is about as safe as a motorcycle. But the motorcycle numbers are skewed a bit by drunk and speeding riders, just like the small airplane numbers a are skewed by intentional low flying (crop dusters and others) and flying in bad weather. Overall if you avoid intentionally flying below 1000 feet and avoid bad weather the GA Accident rates are about the same as automobiles (hour for hour).
I used to say that I thought the biggest difference between motorcycles and airplanes was that on a motorcycle most accidents are caused by someone else where most aircraft accidents are caused by the pilot. Then I started riding motorcycles a bit and watching motorcycle accidents like I watch airplane accidents and discovered that probably the majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by the rider.
My immediate family has been involved in 5 motorcycle accidents. 2 single vehicle (mc) accidents, 1 vehicle vs deer accident, and 2 motorcycle vs vehicles (both not the riders fault). So just my immediate family is at 60% for rider caused accidents. Reading local news reports of motorcycle accidents seems to produce a similar break down between single vehicle and multi vehical motorcycle accidents. I have pretty much stopped riding motorcycles, never had a motorcycle accident.
So far I have been flying Ga for 30 years and 6000 hours, so far have had only minor damages to aircraft and worst injury has been a set of Cessna Diamonds.:)

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I've had several emergencies over the years. With the exception of the last one that ended up with me in the middle of a field, the FAA hasn't ever inquired about anything. They mostly wanted to know my time frame for getting the plane out of the field it was in

It's likely different if you're a commercial operator.
 
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