3 Way Switch Problem

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kyleb

Final Approach
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I'm yanking out a ceiling fan in our kitchen to replace with can lights. The ceiling fan is on a 3 way circuit (two switches), which has worked properly for 15 years.

Anyway, after pulling down the fan I found that regardless of the position of the two wall switches, there is always a hot wire in the junction box that served the ceiling fan.

Does this <probably> tell me that whoever wired the thing goofed up and is switching the neutral side of the circuit, rather than the hot side?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
As I understand the question, you can have a hot wire at the fan junction box if that is where the electricity originated from. The electricity doesn’t have to originate at a switch.

If course, I am probably not explaining it properly./
Click to expand...

You may be describing it absolutely correctly. But here's what I'm thinking:

I only have 3 wires going into the junction box at the fan. The ground, neutral, and hot wire. The hot wire is always hot, regardless of the position of the two wall mounted switches. My expectation (possibly wrong) is the only way that would have switched the fan for the last 15 years would have been if the three way switches were switching the neutral, rather than the hot side.

To me, it is spooky having an always hot wire in a junction box where I assumed a switch setting would de-power the junction box.
 
kyleb said:
You may be describing it absolutely correctly. But here's what I'm thinking:

I only have 3 wires going into the junction box at the fan. The ground, neutral, and hot wire. The hot wire is always hot, regardless of the position of the two wall mounted switches. My expectation (possibly wrong) is the only way that would have switched the fan for the last 15 years would have been if the three way switches were switching the neutral, rather than the hot side.

To me, it is spooky having an always hot wire in a junction box where I assumed a switch setting would de-power the junction box.
Click to expand...
I think you might be right. If power was coming in through the ceiling box you'd probably see more than just the 3 wires.
 
kyleb said:
To me, it is spooky having an always hot wire in a junction box where I assumed a switch setting would de-power the junction box.
Click to expand...
Rule 1: Electricity is always trying to kill you, doubly so if someone else did the wiring.

Yes it is likely that the neutral is switched. It's time to turn off the breaker and open the switch boxes and see what the hell is going on.

And I highly recommend (if you're not using it already) a non-contact voltage sensor to make sure the boxes are dead before poking around in case some other circuit routes through them.
 
Look at the second diagram in the link I attached. I think that is probably what you have.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Look at the second diagram in the link I attached. I think that is probably what you have.
Click to expand...

I think I have the third diagram "figure B", as it were. But with the positive and neutral reversed.

And, yes, I do use a non-contact circuit tester. Cheap insurance.
 
kyleb said:
I'm yanking out a ceiling fan in our kitchen to replace with can lights. The ceiling fan is on a 3 way circuit (two switches), which has worked properly for 15 years.

Anyway, after pulling down the fan I found that regardless of the position of the two wall switches, there is always a hot wire in the junction box that served the ceiling fan.

Does this <probably> tell me that whoever wired the thing goofed up and is switching the neutral side of the circuit, rather than the hot side?
Click to expand...

That's what it sounds like to me.

Rich
 
The wiring you describe sounds correct. The wire you found hot is likely the traveler. Normally, if wired by a professional, it should be red. Neutral directly to the load. Hot to the black terminal of the first switch. Hot out to the load from the black terminal of the second switch. Traveler between the switches. Always turn off the power, and check it with your meter, (before you start work), Jr. Sparky.
 
kyleb said:
snip

To me, it is spooky having an always hot wire in a junction box where I assumed a switch setting would de-power the junction box.
Click to expand...

Assuming can get you zapped. I did a kitchen undercab lighting project a few years ago. I ran a wire up the wall to power the lights. I turned off the breakers, then was working in a box with a plug and I got zapped. My wife started laughing when I went in and got zapped again. There was more than one breaker to the wall plugs, I assumed there was only one. I'm usually more careful than that and check the wire with a meter, I got lazy that day.
 
Art Rose said:
The wiring you describe sounds correct. The wire you found hot is the traveler.
Click to expand...

The travelers go between switches, not out to the fixture, as I understand it. This one seems to have the neutral, not the hot, wired through the switches and an always hot at the fixture.

It can work that way, but that isn’t the safest way to do it or the standard way.
 
PaulS said:
Assuming can get you zapped. I did a kitchen undercab lighting project a few years ago. I ran a wire up the wall to power the lights. I turned off the breakers, then was working in a box with a plug and I got zapped. My wife started laughing when I went in and got zapped again. There was more than one breaker to the wall plugs, I assumed there was only one. I'm usually more careful than that and check the wire with a meter, I got lazy that day.
Click to expand...
That's a common arrangement for kitchens. There are breakaway tabs on the receptacles so that the upper and lower sockets can be run to separate breakers. That way you aren't forever popping breakers when you plug the toaster and kettle into the same receptacle.

serveimage
 
kyleb said:
The travelers go between switches, not out to the fixture, as I understand it. This one seems to have the neutral, not the hot, wired through the switches and an always hot at the fixture.

It can work that way, but that isn’t the safest way to do it or the standard way.
Click to expand...


You are correct, it will work with the neutral broken by the switches, but it's proof that some dipwad did the original wiring job. It can be dangerous wired that way, (as you found out), and it violates code. Makes you wonder what else is screwed up. Don't know how well I'd sleep at night.
 
kyleb said:
I'm yanking out a ceiling fan in our kitchen to replace with can lights. The ceiling fan is on a 3 way circuit (two switches), which has worked properly for 15 years.

Anyway, after pulling down the fan I found that regardless of the position of the two wall switches, there is always a hot wire in the junction box that served the ceiling fan.

Does this <probably> tell me that whoever wired the thing goofed up and is switching the neutral side of the circuit, rather than the hot side?
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with that. It’s wired ‘switch beyond appliance.’ The circuit has to get fed with juice from somewhere to work. If it was wired ‘appliance beyond switch’ there wouldn’t always be a hot wire in the fan box, but there would always be a hot wire in one of the switch boxes regardless of switch setting. It’s the wire that feeds the circuit it’s juice.
 
kyleb said:
The travelers go between switches, not out to the fixture, as I understand it. This one seems to have the neutral, not the hot, wired through the switches and an always hot at the fixture.

It can work that way, but that isn’t the safest way to do it or the standard way.
Click to expand...

It’s a standard way when using Romex. If it’s done with conduit you can pick your colors and run them through the conduit. Romex comes in black and white or red, black and white. When making the white wire hot in a switch leg, it’s marked. Usually by putting a piece of black tape on it. That meets code.
 
My house was built by a very good builder who then lived in it for a while before he sold it to a complete a**hat. The a**hat and his wife had it for 20 years until we bought it from them. Anytime I open up anything electrical I can instantly tell if its original or if the a**hat had his hands on it. There's a pole building that was put up a few years before we bought the place and the a**hat did most of the wiring.

He worked for the state road dept and wanted to build the pole barn for as close to $0 as he could so he stole all the electrical supplies from work and from dumpster diving. There's lots of scraps of 12/2 UF (underground) wire but in many places, the scraps weren't long enough so he'd just wire nut a few of them together to get the length he needed. Did he put those wire nut connections inside a box like you're supposed to? Oh no, boxes cost like $0.59. Can't afford that, just leave them hanging out in the breeze to collect dust. I'm currently removing and replacing everything from the circuit breakers on.
 
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