250 Knots IAS below 10,000 feet - is it adhered to?

Paul Schulten said:
Ok, good for you! There is nothing inherently “safe” about 250/10, it’s just an arbitrary speed for ATC. Throw in winds, TAS, variations in Aircraft, it’s quite a capricious thing, just like Mach number. My dad has some great stories of flying the DC-9 for Delta years ago before the 250/10 limit, they would do 320 or so down low tower to tower in South Georgia. Thank goodness he lived through it! Remember about 25 years ago when HOuston did a test and waived the limit? Was that Unsafe? I fly 250 below 10 too, nothing magical about it, but it is fun to joke about a silly government rule! Wow.
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https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/why-is-there-a-250-knot-speed-limit/

They (and others) seem to think it has something to do with mitigating midairs. Probably not as valid today with all the radar coverage but it’s still in place nonetheless. I’ve also read about reducing birdstrike damage but haven’t seen any real data on that.

At any rate, ATC has nothing to do with it. 250 kts or 450 kts, they don’t care.
 
Paul Schulten said:
There is nothing inherently “safe” about 250/10, it’s just an arbitrary speed for ATC.
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As the previous post says, it is about safety. If it were for ATC then ATC would be authorized to approve deviations from it. They are not.

The 250/10,000 rule compliments the VFR cloud clearance requirements from 14 CFR 91.155. Below 10,000' the VFR weather minimum and cloud clearance requirements are less restrictive. At 10,000' and above the visibility and cloud clearance requirements increase for VFR aircraft. This is because, at and above 10,000', aircraft will be going faster so pilots need more time (distance) to see and avoid.
 
And transponders are required above 10,000 feet.
 
EvilEagle said:
When they do that arrival into DFW or wherever for the first time they are behind. We don't have GPS in the jet so when you guys give us "proceed direct FUTBOL" that doesn't do jack squat for us. The flight lead is now breaking out a 6' long map in a 4' wide cockpit while clearing for traffic, monitoring his wingmen and navigating while trying to get a call in on the UHF radio without being able to tell where the dead time on freq is. Once he finds the point on the map (we just got EFB's so that's a HUGE help) he'll have to get the lat/long then punch that into the jet's INS then steer to it before having guidance to proceed direct.
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One thing that has always bothered me a bit is that when I put in my flight plan, and file with a TACAN/Mode C only equipment code, I still get slammed with GPS fixes. We got RNAV capability and can now file /W a few years ago, which has greatly eased IFR operations, but why bother with an equipment suffix if I'm going to be bounced around to GPS waypoints anyway...
 
RhinoDrvr said:
One thing that has always bothered me a bit is that when I put in my flight plan, and file with a TACAN/Mode C only equipment code, I still get slammed with GPS fixes. We got RNAV capability and can now file /W a few years ago, which has greatly eased IFR operations, but why bother with an equipment suffix if I'm going to be bounced around to GPS waypoints anyway...
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Same problem with GA we’ve been dealing with for years. All of us have gotten direct some GPS fix when we’ve filed /U. Unless they’re also a pilot, a lot of the controllers don’t understand the the navigation capabilities of the aircraft they’re working.
 
Velocity173 said:
Same problem with GA we’ve been dealing with for years. All of us have gotten direct some GPS fix when we’ve filed /U. Unless they’re also a pilot, a lot of the controllers don’t understand the the navigation capabilities of the aircraft they’re working.
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Yep! I was going to Nellis (Las Vegas) one day in an F-15. I stopped for fuel in Colorado Springs, filed a flight plan and hopped in the jet. I called clearance "Jazz 1, you are cleared to Nellis, new route blah blah blah..." I tell them standby then look it up and it's all VOR to VOR. We don't have a VOR and can't accept a clearance to one. I relate that to them and they say standby then "ok, cleared to Nellis via blah blah blah" - "Clearance, those are all VORs also, I can't accept those either".

After a few mins they say (in an exasperated tone) "Well, what clearance CAN you accept Jazz?" I say, well I can accept "Cleared as filed". Ok, Jazz 1 you are cleared as filed.

This experience is one of the many reasons I don't feel the least bit bad when I file an 800-mile flight plan as departure direct destination. IME, they don't even bother looking at the route you filed or why you might have filed it.
 
EvilEagle said:
Yep! I was going to Nellis (Las Vegas) one day in an F-15. I stopped for fuel in Colorado Springs, filed a flight plan and hopped in the jet. I called clearance "Jazz 1, you are cleared to Nellis, new route blah blah blah..." I tell them standby then look it up and it's all VOR to VOR. We don't have a VOR and can't accept a clearance to one. I relate that to them and they say standby then "ok, cleared to Nellis via blah blah blah" - "Clearance, those are all VORs also, I can't accept those either".

After a few mins they say (in an exasperated tone) "Well, what clearance CAN you accept Jazz?" I say, well I can accept "Cleared as filed". Ok, Jazz 1 you are cleared as filed.

This experience is one of the many reasons I don't feel the least bit bad when I file an 800-mile flight plan as departure direct destination. IME, they don't even bother looking at the route you filed or why you might have filed it.
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“Jazz.” I like that. Goes with the whole (JZ) New Orleans vibe.

Still no VOR? You Guys TACAN / INS then?
 
EvilEagle said:
Yep! I was going to Nellis (Las Vegas) one day in an F-15. I stopped for fuel in Colorado Springs, filed a flight plan and hopped in the jet. I called clearance "Jazz 1, you are cleared to Nellis, new route blah blah blah..." I tell them standby then look it up and it's all VOR to VOR. We don't have a VOR and can't accept a clearance to one. I relate that to them and they say standby then "ok, cleared to Nellis via blah blah blah" - "Clearance, those are all VORs also, I can't accept those either".

After a few mins they say (in an exasperated tone) "Well, what clearance CAN you accept Jazz?" I say, well I can accept "Cleared as filed". Ok, Jazz 1 you are cleared as filed.

This experience is one of the many reasons I don't feel the least bit bad when I file an 800-mile flight plan as departure direct destination. IME, they don't even bother looking at the route you filed or why you might have filed it.
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I’m surprised they didn’t just read you the lat/longs of the VORs.
 
Velocity173 said:
“Jazz.” I like that. Goes with the whole (JZ) New Orleans vibe.

Still no VOR? You Guys TACAN / INS then?
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Yep, TACAN/INS only - which is a /I on the form - "enroute nav capable" but that doesn't mean we can go to GPS fixes (or VORs)

Kritchlow said:
I’m surprised they didn’t just read you the lat/longs of the VORs.
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I've only had one controller (that I can recall) in 18+ years of flying this jet that read me lat/longs -even when I asked. Dunno why other than just a lot of radio time to read them.
 
EvilEagle said:
Yep! I was going to Nellis (Las Vegas) one day in an F-15. I stopped for fuel in Colorado Springs, filed a flight plan and hopped in the jet. I called clearance "Jazz 1, you are cleared to Nellis, new route blah blah blah..." I tell them standby then look it up and it's all VOR to VOR. We don't have a VOR and can't accept a clearance to one. I relate that to them and they say standby then "ok, cleared to Nellis via blah blah blah" - "Clearance, those are all VORs also, I can't accept those either".

After a few mins they say (in an exasperated tone) "Well, what clearance CAN you accept Jazz?" I say, well I can accept "Cleared as filed". Ok, Jazz 1 you are cleared as filed.

This experience is one of the many reasons I don't feel the least bit bad when I file an 800-mile flight plan as departure direct destination. IME, they don't even bother looking at the route you filed or why you might have filed it.
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I talked to a couple guys who showed up at an air show in a T-38 and I asked them what it's like to fly. After telling me what avionics they don't have, their conclusion was "If you can say 'unable,' you can fly this jet."
 
iamtheari said:
I talked to a couple guys who showed up at an air show in a T-38 and I asked them what it's like to fly. After telling me what avionics they don't have, their conclusion was "If you can say 'unable,' you can fly this jet."
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That's a good one - the T-38C though you are out of luck now. That thing has everything - there are a few A models still floating around but they are getting less and less by the day.
 
The funny thing is that as I progressed through training to my fleet aircraft, each one got less and less sophisticated from a navigation perspective.

T-6B - Full glass cockpit, EICAS, FMS, RNAV, ILS, VOR/DME

T-45C - TACAN, ILS

F/A-18 - TACAN only (RNAV now...still no ILS)
 
Don’t need no stinkin’ ILS / GPS. Final controllers got mouths to feed!

#RFClivesmatter, #saynotoJPALS
 
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