When is any ol' FAA represtentative...

EdFred

EdFred

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...the Administrator?

The 250kts below 10,000 got me wondering. There is a crap ton of references in part 61 and part 91 that refer to "the Administrator" and with a lot of those the supposition is that it's not actually Dan Elwell.

In Part 61 there are all sorts of references to Administrator (94 of them)
61.1
"...a person authorized by the Administrator..." Well, that check ride I took wasn't with the Administrator it was by a DPE, who doesn't even work for the FAA.

61.3
"...in the persons physical possession...identification that the Administrator finds acceptable."

Well, if' I"m ramp checked the guy from the FSDO isn't going to call up OKC and get verification that whatever for of ID I've got works. He's got discretion to say that works or doesn't work for ID.

61.13
"...application on a form...acceptable to the Administrator."

If my chicken scratch is really bad, the DPE can say, this isn't acceptable, he doesn't have to get a rejection from OKC.
SODA rides: "Administrator determines...." again it isn't Dan Elwell that's determining it personally. That is delegated.

61.17
"...the Administrator finds qualified..."
All of these are delegated representation of the Administrator. And the list goes on, and that's just in part 61.

What makes these difference from "...unless Authorized by the Administrator..." in that a DPE or someone from the FSDO is "the Administrator" and someone in ATC is not?
 
As an examiner, I have a written authorization from he FAA to give the check rides that I do. Not signed directly by the Adminstrator, but the process for approval is also directed by official documentation.

Using the “Administrator” terminology eliminates the confusion that could be associated with “acceptable to the DPE” or “acceptable to the inspector”.

An inspector doesn’t have a lot of discretion in choosing the ID that’s acceptable...he’s got documentation that allows a fairly limited group of documents that are “acceptable to the Administrator”.

It’s all about the paper trail that goes back to “the Administrator”.

Edit...oh, and when I say “paper trail”, it isn’t all paper, and it doesn’t actually make a continuous trail to the Administrator’s office. ;)
 
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EdFred said:
...the Administrator?

The 250kts below 10,000 got me wondering. There is a crap ton of references in part 61 and part 91 that refer to "the Administrator" and with a lot of those the supposition is that it's not actually Dan Elwell.

In Part 61 there are all sorts of references to Administrator (94 of them)
61.1
"...a person authorized by the Administrator..." Well, that check ride I took wasn't with the Administrator it was by a DPE, who doesn't even work for the FAA.

61.3
"...in the persons physical possession...identification that the Administrator finds acceptable."

Well, if' I"m ramp checked the guy from the FSDO isn't going to call up OKC and get verification that whatever for of ID I've got works. He's got discretion to say that works or doesn't work for ID.

61.13
"...application on a form...acceptable to the Administrator."

If my chicken scratch is really bad, the DPE can say, this isn't acceptable, he doesn't have to get a rejection from OKC.
SODA rides: "Administrator determines...." again it isn't Dan Elwell that's determining it personally. That is delegated.

61.17
"...the Administrator finds qualified..."
All of these are delegated representation of the Administrator. And the list goes on, and that's just in part 61.

What makes these difference from "...unless Authorized by the Administrator..." in that a DPE or someone from the FSDO is "the Administrator" and someone in ATC is not?
Click to expand...

The FAA ASI has an order by the Administrator called the 8900.1. That is his order to carry out work on behalf of the Administrator. There are additional orders as well in which the ASI can use.

So when you see "Administrator" this means his designee as well.
 
49 U.S.C. § 44702 empowers the FAA Administrator to delegate to private individuals the the examination, testing, and inspection necessary to issue a certificate under "this chapter."

Those certificates are:

airman certificates,
design organization certificates,
type certificates,
production certificates,
airworthiness certificates,
air carrier operating certificates,
airport operating certificates,
air agency certificates,
and air navigation facility certificates
​

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44702

See also, 14 CFR 183.23 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/183.23

For delegation to DPEs, they sign on that they agree to follow Order 8900.2B, or they will have their delegation of authority rescinded.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Order_8900.2B.pdf
 
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I ain't no highfalutin government lawyer or anything but....

Code of Federal Regulations said:
§1.1 General definitions.
As used in Subchapters A through K of this chapter, unless the context requires otherwise:

Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
Click to expand...
 
Delegated authority. And it's pretty common in our system of government.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, strictly when reading 14CFR, how do we know when he has and when he has not delegated his authority?
Click to expand...

A designee has documentation he has been delegated authority. An ASI has credentials.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I ain't no highfalutin government lawyer or anything but...
Click to expand...

As an aside, do you know where that term originated. If not, yawannaknow?

When early Americans travelled by steamboat the well-to-do sat on the top deck when the weather was nice. That's where all the best services were doled out. Said passengers were referred to as highfalutin due to the ornate and fluted smoke stacks on the boats.
E420AFD9-9EDB-4F3C-8C8E-BA49A2D21C49.jpeg
 
Can the FAA delegate to a CFI or DPE the power to conduct a SODA test if no ASI is available? If so 49 U.S.C. § 44702 should cover it, but it is not expressed but maybe implied.
 
Blackstar9 said:
If so 49 U.S.C. § 44702 should cover it...,
Click to expand...
FYI: in my experience, you're one level too high with a USC reference. It would need to be covered in Part 67, or other similar guidance like an Order, Notice, Handbook, LOI, etc., which define how the law (USC) is enforced.
 
EdFred said:
...the Administrator?

The 250kts below 10,000 got me wondering. There is a crap ton of references in part 61 and part 91 that refer to "the Administrator" and with a lot of those the supposition is that it's not actually Dan Elwell.

In Part 61 there are all sorts of references to Administrator (94 of them)
61.1
"...a person authorized by the Administrator..." Well, that check ride I took wasn't with the Administrator it was by a DPE, who doesn't even work for the FAA.

61.3
"...in the persons physical possession...identification that the Administrator finds acceptable."

Well, if' I"m ramp checked the guy from the FSDO isn't going to call up OKC and get verification that whatever for of ID I've got works. He's got discretion to say that works or doesn't work for ID.

61.13
"...application on a form...acceptable to the Administrator."

If my chicken scratch is really bad, the DPE can say, this isn't acceptable, he doesn't have to get a rejection from OKC.
SODA rides: "Administrator determines...." again it isn't Dan Elwell that's determining it personally. That is delegated.

61.17
"...the Administrator finds qualified..."
All of these are delegated representation of the Administrator. And the list goes on, and that's just in part 61.

What makes these difference from "...unless Authorized by the Administrator..." in that a DPE or someone from the FSDO is "the Administrator" and someone in ATC is not?
Click to expand...


The administrator?

wizard-of-oz.gif
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: in my experience, you're one level too high with a USC reference. It would need to be covered in Part 67, or other similar guidance like an Order, Notice, Handbook, LOI, etc., which define how the law (USC) is enforced.
Click to expand...


Unless specifically authorized by the managing FAA office, a designee must not accept an application for an airman certificate or rating from an applicant requiring a special medical flight test. Such applicants should be referred to an FAA office. 8900.2

So maybe they can be appointed to do the test.
Also, the 8900,1
“Special medical flight tests” may or may not involve a flight. These tests may lead to the issuance of Medical Certificates under § 67.401 and are frequently required for applicants who do not meet certain medical standards. Only an aviation safety inspector (ASI) may conduct the associated flight test; however, an ASI or aviation safety technician (AST) may conduct certain tests described in this section not involving a flight. While personnel at a responsible Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) may, add, remove, or leave unchanged specific operating limitations on pilot certificates based upon the results of a special medical flight test, only medical personnel may make changes to an applicant’s Medical Certificate. A special medical flight test may only occur after FAA medical personnel issue a letter of authorization (LOA) for the test.

I find it interesting that the flight test does not actually have to be a flight
 
The administrator determines the rules, process, and procedures to be used by his delegates. The drone that looks at your Id on the ramp knows it’s acceptable to the administrator because he has guidance from the administrator to tell him what is acceptable and what is not.

is this really that hard?
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, strictly when reading 14CFR, how do we know when he has and when he has not delegated his authority?
Click to expand...

from 14 CFR, you don’t. You have to know all the FAA orders and changes, keep up with other FAA publications, and religiously read the federal register. Then if you have a question something that isn’t readily available to you, file a FOIA request or potentially visit the FAA office in DC and talk to someone face to face. I recommend an appointment. The FAA website can be extremely valuable in figuring out the structure the Administrator has put in place to execute the things Congress has directed him to do.

or if someone shows you a badge, you could note and cooperate with them. Much less of a hassle.
 
FAR 1.1 Definitions

Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.
 
Blackstar9 said:
Only an aviation safety inspector (ASI) may conduct the associated flight test; however, an ASI or aviation safety technician (AST)....
Click to expand...
I believe you answered your own question with your quote of 8900.1.
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. Which ones are missing? The Administrator is limited by law to certain areas it can delegate its authority (examination, testing, and certificate issuing). The complete delegate listing to include sub-sets of the list above can be found here (Vol1, Sect. 2, para. 4):
http://rgl.faa.gov/regulatory_and_g...60045398d/$FILE/8000.95_CHG5_Incorporated.pdf
Click to expand...

How many people do you believe were delegated by the FAA for original 837Max certification and the subsequent investigation?
 
Clip4 said:
How many people do you believe were delegated by the FAA for original 837Max certification and the subsequent investigation?
Click to expand...
Don't quite follow your question. Besides, the FAA can't delegate investigations as only they or the NTSB can do that function.

However, the actual number of individual designees is determined by FAA need and can be anywhere from 1 to a 100 or more. But their delegated function can only fall under the list attached above. You stated the feds could delegate outside that function list. So my question was which functions were not listed.

The FAA delegation/designee process is highly regulated with strict guidelines and the law/regulations require the FAA to show/document a need for the use private representatives. Having spent time in the NEB pool waiting on a DAR-T "need" it's not like applying for and getting an IA.
 
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