Another 2020 Mandate Request for Opinions

A

Alex Morris

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
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8
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Eunice, La
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Display name:
Froggy
My first post on POA. Finally decided to sign up. I'll apologize in advance if I'm beating a dead horse here but I'm looking for some info and ultimately opinions of other plane owners. I've recently purchased a C172M and am a student pilot. I have a (working) KT-76 transponder and am trying to decide what I'll do for the 2020 Mode-S mandate. My first thoughts were to keep my old KT76 and get a UAvionics SkyBeacon guide-light ADS-B out device but then I came across a possible slide-in replacement such as the KT-74. This would be a bit more expensive but it SEEMS like it would be better. That's where I'm curious. I do not have any WAAS-capable stuff and don't have any immediate plans to get that so ADS-B In right now isn't going to be an option. My first question, is what would I have to gain by actually exchanging my transponder with an ADS-B out capable one? Also, is the replacement "slide in" in the sense that it's a somewhat quick install process? Anyway, any info is helpful. Thanks in advance.
 
Nothing is going to solve your problems except for money. Do you have any desire to upgrade this plane to a WAAS GPS soon? What is your honest budget t get this done? Also remember, you dont NEED ADSB per se. You'll just have to avoid airspace is all. It's not too hard to do unless you are based in some sort of major metro area.
 
I'd say if I can get the transponder and have it installed for $3000-$4000 I'd be happy. I do not have any intentions of upgraded to a WAAS GPS. Will WAAS be required in order to use the KT74 (and ultimately ADSB)?
The avionics in my airplane is pretty elementary. My two radios are TKM MX300s which I'm happy with. I do not have an audio panel at all and therefore no real intercom. My ultimate goal would be (all at one time for efficiency and cost) would be to have an audio panel installed with a 4-place intercom, likewise get ADSB compliant with new transponder possibly. From what I'm told, while doing all of this, it's preferred to replace the coax cables on the radios and transponder. While having it in the avi shop and were a new weight/balance would be necessary, I'd have the inop DME and ADF removed. I figure all of that would be around $10k with equipment and labor. Am I in the neighborhood?
 
You will need a WAAS GPS source. This can be an panel installted GPS, or an internal GPS on the ADSB unit. So at a minimum you would need to install a WAAS antenna for the ADSB unit.
 
Sounds like the SkyBeacon will be my best bet. That's exactly what I needed to know.
 
I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the SkyBeacon. It is the cheapest way to compliance, but it is low power and that electronics is hanging on the wing in the weather. There was a time when I thought that was way to go for my Cessna, but now not so much. The SkyBeacon keeps you using your old transponder which keeps you twisting dials and hoping the old transponder doesn’t lay down on you. It has no quality path to IN as do other choices, should you change your mind later on.

I went all in on the Mooney because it has a 430W and takes advantage of the IN with a 345. For my Cessna, where I have no panel navigator, the Appareo ESG made much more sense. It is a modern full power transponder that uses your encoding altimeter or blind encoder. You can add, either now or later, a Stratus for $600 that gives you all IN features with a wireless connection to your Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, or whatever EFB you choose. The ESG comes with the WAAS antenna included. It can be had for under $3,000 with about a $1,000 installation cost. This gives you quality, out of the weather, panel mounted equipment and better future options.

If I were going to keep the original transponder and wanted to go low buck, the Garmin GDL installed would cost a little more than the SkyBeacon, but be out of the weather, higher power, and lend itself to easily going to a more modern 327 transponder which can be had for a reasonable price later on.

My $0.02,

BTW, welcome to POA!
 
I didn’t see your location? Another idea is to do nothing, depending on where you are based & fly?

A lot of shops are booked 5 months ahead now, found that out when I got serious a month ago. I called a few.

My panel is similar to yours, dated, no WAAS source, like my radios. I also didn’t want to look for $25k in my wallet at this time. I ended up committing to the Stratus ESG 3i, witch will go in at my June annual. My older transponder works, but I don’t have long term faith in it.

Being a student pilot I’d go lower cost, if I did anything. Another point, some type of cockpit weather is an almost essential safety component, especially on longer flights.
 
Yes, sourdough is right. Take a few minutes and post your general location in your profile. It will frequently people when responding to your questions and comments. Again, welcome.
 
Thanks for all the info. Regarding the SkyBeacon, your reasons to (re)consider it are some of what made me want to look at other options. I'm going to do a bit of research on the components you mentioned. I'm not looking to be as cheap as possible, but also not looking to spend an endless amount of money. Regarding avoiding airspace until I can figure out what I'll do for the Mandate won't be too big of a damper. I'm based out of a small airport outside controlled airspace.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the SkyBeacon. It is the cheapest way to compliance, but it is low power and that electronics is hanging on the wing in the weather. There was a time when I thought that was way to go for my Cessna, but now not so much. The SkyBeacon keeps you using your old transponder which keeps you twisting dials and hoping the old transponder doesn’t lay down on you. It has no quality path to IN as do other choices, should you change your mind later on.

I went all in on the Mooney because it has a 430W and takes advantage of the IN with a 345. For my Cessna, where I have no panel navigator, the Appareo ESG made much more sense. It is a modern full power transponder that uses your encoding altimeter or blind encoder. You can add, either now or later, a Stratus for $600 that gives you all IN features with a wireless connection to your Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, or whatever EFB you choose. The ESG comes with the WAAS antenna included. It can be had for under $3,000 with about a $1,000 installation cost. This gives you quality, out of the weather, panel mounted equipment and better future options.

If I were going to keep the original transponder and wanted to go low buck, the Garmin GDL installed would cost a little more than the SkyBeacon, but be out of the weather, higher power, and lend itself to easily going to a more modern 327 transponder which can be had for a reasonable price later on.

My $0.02,

BTW, welcome to POA!
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I've taken a moment to look at the GDL 82.. I'd agree this would be the best "low buck" solution and the price is very comparable to the SkyBeacon. I also looked at the Appareo ESG. If I understand this correctly, this transponder does it all? ADS-B out with all included WAAS antennas, etc so that if I went with it (the $3k to buy and $1k or so to install) I'd be compliant with new panel-mounted xponder and later (should I decide) can get a stratus to do ADS-B in?

Thanks again.
 
Alex Morris said:
I've taken a moment to look at the GDL 82.. I'd agree this would be the best "low buck" solution and the price is very comparable to the SkyBeacon. I also looked at the Appareo ESG. If I understand this correctly, this transponder does it all? ADS-B out with all included WAAS antennas, etc so that if I went with it (the $3k to buy and $1k or so to install) I'd be compliant with new panel-mounted xponder and later (should I decide) can get a stratus to do ADS-B in?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

That is correct, the Appareo ESG has it’s own WAAS source. With it you can still get by with older panel, no GPS.
 
Alex Morris said:
I've taken a moment to look at the GDL 82.. I'd agree this would be the best "low buck" solution and the price is very comparable to the SkyBeacon. I also looked at the Appareo ESG. If I understand this correctly, this transponder does it all? ADS-B out with all included WAAS antennas, etc so that if I went with it (the $3k to buy and $1k or so to install) I'd be compliant with new panel-mounted xponder and later (should I decide) can get a stratus to do ADS-B in?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Yes, the ESG with the Stratus will give you IN, but only on your Foreflight, Garmin Pilot or whatever EFB you prefer. If the time comes when you d3cide to add a panel GPS like a 430/530 or 650/750, it will not communicate to them. If you were planning that far ahead, you should go to a 345, but that is twice the money and who knows what might come along between now and then. For those of us with a plane with no plans for a panel GPS, I think the ESG kit is really tough to beat.

BTW, the ESG is available with an AHRS box that is mounted that gives attitude, heading on the indicator that is part of Foreflight Synthetic Vision. The ESG and mounted Stratus added to it, goes with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot like peas with carrots.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Yes, the ESG with the Stratus will give you IN, but only on your Foreflight, Garmin Pilot or whatever EFB you prefer. If the time comes when you d3cide to add a panel GPS like a 430/530 or 650/750, it will not communicate to them. If you were planning that far ahead, you should go to a 345, but that is twice the money and who knows what might come along between now and then. For those of us with a plane with no plans for a panel GPS, I think the ESG kit is really tough to beat.

BTW, the ESG is available with an AHRS box that is mounted that gives attitude, heading on the indicator that is part of Foreflight Synthetic Vision. The ESG and mounted Stratus added to it, goes with Foreflight or Garmin Pilot like peas with carrots.
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If you're looking at a Stratus ESG, it's worth looking at the comparable (and comparably priced) Garmin GTX 335 as well.
 
As I understand it, the 335 does not provide IN. The ESG provides IN for an EFB and also AHRS information. That makes the 335 vs ESG an apples and oranges comparison. If the 335 does indeed provide IN then I stand corrected and it is a completely different ballgame.
 
The ESGi provides power and antenna connections to the Stratus 3, which looks just like a 2/2s but has a USB-C connector for power and data. This allows you to hide the Stratus IN device under the panel / out of sight. I believe this can be added later but wiring can be done during the transponder installation. It consists of a third antenna connector in the tray and around 6 wires to a DB-9. Half the cost of the ESG installation is for the GPS antenna (assuming ESG) and running new RG-400 to the antennas.
 
You will need a WAAS source to be ADS-B compliant, which can be a a GPS navigator or a receiver bundled with the ADS-B unit.

The sky beacon is the least expensive option, but requires a separate working transponder from which it reads squawk and alt data. It has it's own WAAS source. It is UAT out and has no in capability. The GDL route is similar as these units also read your transponder and add the necessary ADS-B info to it. A full mode S solution will give you a standalone transponder with 1090ES out plus FIS-B and TIS-B in as well as both direct UAT and 1090 traffic. Most units will communicate with your EFB and/or GPS navigator with some exceptions. This solution will cost $4000-$7000 depending on your desired capabilities. Appareo, Garmin, and Lynx all make nice units.

ADS-B will be required wherever you need mode C now. In the NE, that's a lot of places one might fly to or through. Having IN capability is great for visualizing traffic and for weather updates including in flight display of WX radar data. How much this is all worth to you depends on how you fly. But inflight WX is non negotiable for me these days. It's a game changer for long XC. It's nice to get WX from one panel unit instead of a tangle of portable wires.
 
MBDiagMan said:
As I understand it, the 335 does not provide IN. The ESG provides IN for an EFB and also AHRS information. That makes the 335 vs ESG an apples and oranges comparison. If the 335 does indeed provide IN then I stand corrected and it is a completely different ballgame.
Click to expand...

The ESG only provides for In via a separate Stratus device - a portable - Which you can do with a 335 if you want to as well.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The ESG only provides for In via a separate Stratus device - a portable - Which you can do with a 335 if you want to as well.
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Not exactly correct. The ESG kit comes with the xponder, WAAS antenna and AHRS sensor. There is a particular Stratus version, not a portable, that is mounted behind the transponder giving IN for an EFB. Thanks for confirming that the 335 has no out. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same permanently mounted Stratus is mounted behind the ESG could be mounted behind a 335. Sorry to split hairs.

So.... it sounds as if the ESG and the 335 are very much in the same catagory. The Stratus is less expensive, but comparable. That said, I might have ended up with a 335 in the 140, but a friend was upgrading his J and had to go to a 345 to feed the 650 he put in, and offered me a killer deal on the whole set up. It was the price range I had hoped would come along so I could justify ADS-B for my 140.

BTW, my Mooney has a 345 and 430W.
 
If you are not in a rush don't forget the Tailbeacon which is also by Uavionix which is supposed to be out later this month ( or next). Since you have a 172 I suspect that will be the easiest installation for OUT. In look at stratux stratus .. add IPAD ( mini Version 4s are going to be cheap, look at Apple Referb)
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for confirming that the 335 has no out.
Click to expand...

Other way around - The 335 has no In. Out is the part that's mandated. ;)

So.... it sounds as if the ESG and the 335 are very much in the same catagory. The Stratus is less expensive, but comparable.
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Used to be less expensive - Mainly because Garmin was charging extra for the internal GPS. They have since cut their prices so that the 335 (with GPS) and ESG (also with GPS) are the same price.

patrick wentworth said:
In look at stratux stratus .. add IPAD ( mini Version 4s are going to be cheap, look at Apple Referb)
Click to expand...

Too late - Apple Refurb already ran out of Mini 4s. They still have some Mini 2s, but those are so old I would only take one if it was free.

Refurb is a great way to buy Apple gear, though. Give it a few months and they should start having Mini 5s in the refurb store as the first batch of DOAs and returns gets repaired and refurbished.
 
Senior moment on my part. I meant 335 does not have IN.

When you say Garmin charging extra for GPS, what do you mean? I thought all xponders use GPS.

Thanks for the dialogue. I am enjoying learning as much as I can about ADS-B.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Senior moment on my part. I meant 335 does not have IN.

When you say Garmin charging extra for GPS, what do you mean? I thought all xponders use GPS.
Click to expand...

Both the 335 and the 345 are available with and without an internal WAAS GPS. In fact, the Stratus is too, that's the difference between the ES and the ESG.

If you already have a WAAS GPS in your panel, you can use that as a position source for your ADS-B transponder. The ESG, and the Garmins with the built-in GPS, allow you to comply with the ADS-B mandate without the expensive addition of a panel-moount GPS navigator retrofit.

Originally, the ESG (with GPS) and the 335 (without GPS) were the same price ($2995), giving Appareo a price advantage for those who needed GPS (Garmin was charging an extra $800 for the GPS version). Now, Garmin has reduced the prices on the 335 so that you can get the version with its own GPS for $2995, the same price as the ESG.

Of course, my airplane partner and I said "Well, if we put in a GTN 750, we'll *save* $800 on the GTX 345!" :rofl:

Thanks for the dialogue. I am enjoying learning as much as I can about ADS-B.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup:
 
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