I just found out today that a friend I fly with (Southwest Pilot) has PTSD (diagnosed by the VA) and claims 80% DV. He told me that he keeps both his doctors separate and the AME doesn't have a clue about his PTSD and if they did his Class 1 medical would go away. This concerns me greatly as I wouldn't want to fly on a commercial airliner knowing one of the guys up front has such a diagnosis (yes, even if it were one of my family). What are my options to report this? Should I call Southwest, FAA or someone else?
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- Thread starter Pete Hope
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FlySince9
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Most likely you’ve got nothing to worry about with him up front since he probably lied to get the rating. He wouldn’t necessarily lose his class I with a PTSD diagnosis either. He just doesn’t want to jump through the hoops to get an SI for it.
http://www.burnpit.us/2014/08/fraudulent-ptsd-claims-clogging-system-stealing-those-who-need-help
http://www.burnpit.us/2014/08/fraudulent-ptsd-claims-clogging-system-stealing-those-who-need-help
Have you physically seen his VA packet that awards a rating for PTSD as well as his award letter and his most recent MedExpress application to confirm whatever you believe? If not, butt out.
Since PTSD doesn’t have an 80% disability rating by itself, he’s got at least one other disability rating in play, and perhaps many more since the rating scale for PTSD starts at 0%. By the way, the VA rates conditions and gives them a name, they don’t diagnose a condition in a disability claim.
And VA math to get to 80% isn’t additive or cumulative, VA math is it’s own special kind of special, so I’d recommend you put aside any preconceived notions, speculation, stereotypes, fears, or discriminatory thoughts and ask yourself what business this is of yours.
I'm sure the FAA have their own process for this. Let them decide. GermanWings relatives also might disagree with you too.
Brad Z
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The FAA has a hotline to report safety related issues.
It's worth mentioning that the FAA has gone after pilots who didn't disclose medical conditions that they were receiving VA disability status for.
It's worth mentioning that the FAA has gone after pilots who didn't disclose medical conditions that they were receiving VA disability status for.
The FAA does; its called MedExpress and recurring Class 1 medical visits with an AME.
Since the FAA gave Andreas Lubitz his medical after he lied on his MedExpress application about depression, your faith is misplaced.
Ravioli
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You sound like a great friend. <- sarcasm
How do you fly with him? Are you also a SW pilot? If so, you should know exactly how to make a report. If you're a GA pilot you probably still know how to make the report.
How about this... don't call anyone or post on the internet about it.
Wonder if he co-owns an aircraft with the SWA pilot?
bbchien
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FAA hotline. That is dangerous.
Sinistar
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The AME's and FAA guys on here pretty need to tell you to take some next required step, tell someone, etc.
But you've only posted twice and it sounds a lot like another "nark on a buddy" post we had lately.
I think this thread is bogus.
If you were truly that worried you would have called someone official long ago.
So either you're jealous of your buddy or tooling the inmates here.
Either way, you've got your answers and your next step does not involve a forum.
But you've only posted twice and it sounds a lot like another "nark on a buddy" post we had lately.
I think this thread is bogus.
If you were truly that worried you would have called someone official long ago.
So either you're jealous of your buddy or tooling the inmates here.
Either way, you've got your answers and your next step does not involve a forum.
Sinistar
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Dr. Chien, I think this guy is messing with us...the story just doesn't seem right.
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If he's not just messing with us, he has his answers. If he is messing with us, any further arguing is feeding a troll.
SkyDog58
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For Pete’s sake, I Hope so.
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Why would you think he’s messing with us? Almost all the guys I retired with are receiving VA disability. Based on my discussions with them, none of them claim it on medexpress.
Sinistar
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First things first, if I am wrong I will be the first to apologize. Not sure how that could be proven to me but I will.
From your comment you mentioned a high rate of retiring pilots have VA disability - I can see that. Heck, I was in the Navy and I swear my hearing has never been the same. Perhaps I could receive some disability for hearing loss and one bad cut I took on the head. I would then have to report those disabilities and perhaps it would have prevented or limited my aviation medical.
But @Pete Hope indicated it was PTSD related. So I am not sure how many retiring pilots have VA disabilities for PTSD. I think that, along with being a new poster and not being entirely clear of the flying relationship with the other pilot gives this thread a feeling of jealousy, revenge, spite, etc.
I know this will sound selfish, but in this particular case I hope I am right. That the pilot isn't really having any of the indicated issues, etc.
If I am wrong that means someone with a decent aviation career is about to hit a big wall, not fly for a while and have to work through a lot of stuff in the system.
You know if the OP's story started like this:
"Hi everyone, I am a pilot and my friend is a pilot. I'm bummed that I might need to report my friend. He currently has a 80% VA disability, the majority being for PTSD. The fact he doesn't report it on his medicals bothers me. But what actually worries me is that I am seeing issues [at home|at work|etc] and I am now quite concerned about his safety and those that fly with him. We work for a major airlines but I will not disclose that. So this is larger than just 2 pilots in GA aircraft. What would you guys do? Not sure if I should talk to him first, let the company know first or go right to the FAA..."
...then it would have sounded more genuine and actually concerned vs the tattling vibe.
Depending on intepretation, 18.X or 18.Y in MedExpress/8500-8 requires disclosure.
Application Process for Medical Certification
Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History
x. Other illness, disability, or surgery
Applicant History - Item 18. Medical HistoryThe applicant should describe the nature of these illnesses in the EXPLANATIONS box. If additional records, tests, or specialty reports are necessary in order to make a certification decision, the applicant should so be advised. If the applicant does not wish to provide the information requested by the Examiner, the Examiner should defer issuance.
If the applicant wishes to have the FAA review the application and decide what ancillary documentation is needed, the Examiner should defer issuance of the medical certificate and forward the completed FAA Form 8500-8 to the AMCD. If the Examiner proceeds to obtain documentation, but all data will not be received with the 2 weeks, FAA Form 8500-8 should be transmitted immediately to the AMCD with a note that additional documents will be forwarded later under separate cover.
If the applicant wishes to have the FAA review the application and decide what ancillary documentation is needed, the Examiner should defer issuance of the medical certificate and forward the completed FAA Form 8500-8 to the AMCD. If the Examiner proceeds to obtain documentation, but all data will not be received with the 2 weeks, FAA Form 8500-8 should be transmitted immediately to the AMCD with a note that additional documents will be forwarded later under separate cover.
y. Medical Disability Benefits
The applicant must report any disability benefits received, regardless of source or amount. If the applicant checks yes on this item, the FAA may verify with other Federal Agencies (ie. Social Security Administration, Veteran's Affairs) whether the applicant is receiving a disability benefit that may present a conflict in issuing an FAA medical certificate. The Examiner must document the specifics and nature of the disability in findings in Item 60.
Application Review - Item 60. Comments on History and Findings
Comments on all positive history or medical examination findings must be reported by Item Number. Item 60 provides the Examiner an opportunity to report observations and/or findings that are not asked for on the application form. Concern about the applicant's behavior, abnormal situations arising during the examination, unusual findings, unreported history, and other information thought germane to aviation safety should be reported in Item 60. The Examiner should record name, dosage, frequency, and purpose for all currently used medications.
If possible, all ancillary reports such as consultations, ECGs, X-ray release forms, and hospital or other treatment records should be attached. If the delay for those items would exceed 14 days, the Examiner should forward all available data to the AMCD, with a note specifying what additional information is being prepared for submission at a later date.
If there are no significant medical history items or abnormal physical findings, the Examiner should indicate this by checking the appropriate block.
If possible, all ancillary reports such as consultations, ECGs, X-ray release forms, and hospital or other treatment records should be attached. If the delay for those items would exceed 14 days, the Examiner should forward all available data to the AMCD, with a note specifying what additional information is being prepared for submission at a later date.
If there are no significant medical history items or abnormal physical findings, the Examiner should indicate this by checking the appropriate block.
Sinistar
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@Pete Hope - in fairness to you, after your call to the FAA can you share with us how the FAA responded during the call? I definitely would not want you to give any real names or aviation company names...rather, what is involved in that type of call? What type of information did they ask? Will they ever contact you again? Is your call anonymous or did you have to provide your name and Pilot License #, etc, etc?
I guess maybe we'd all learn something as I am thinking the majority (like 99.9%) have never had to call the FAA hotline, especially for something like this.
And if I am wrong regarding your concerns and friend then I would like to offer my apologies right up front.
I guess maybe we'd all learn something as I am thinking the majority (like 99.9%) have never had to call the FAA hotline, especially for something like this.
And if I am wrong regarding your concerns and friend then I would like to offer my apologies right up front.
I'm sorry you feel like my post is bogus. I didn't feel the need to explain my own personal situation but for the record, I will. I'm a GA pilot and my relationship with this guy is meeting him at the local airpark. After seeing the guys DV plates and flying with him once I started to build a friendship with him. Overtime I discovered more. When speaking with the guy I noticed that he has what seems to be some type of neurological issue going on - he often has extended blinking and twitching can be seen throughout his whole body. After him telling me he had PTSD I decided I wouldn't fly with him again. He is a nice guy but I started to ask myself 'is it right that he is flying airlines with 200 lives in his hands?' Especially in light of him telling me that he chooses his AME carefully and makes sure that he never discusses his 'other issues' with the AME.
Sure, I know many of you see me as a 'nark' but equally, if I'm wrong then the FAA won't stop him flying.
Sinistar
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I stand absolutely corrected. I am sorry for my casting doubt and anything I said negative regarding you or your posts. I hope you will forgive me.
It sounds like you definitely did the right thing. Lets hope decent AME's get involved and his career does not have to end if he is still safe enough to fly.
It also make you wonder, every day he flies for work there is a co-pilot along with him. Could be a new one almost every trip. Makes you wonder why actual flying professionals haven't said something sooner. In the Navy (and I suppose all forces that handle nukes) this would be like a PRP situation. Lots of peer pressure to not report but the consequences, wow you just have to say something and expect the relationship to go south.
Yes, I will write back and tell of my experience with the reporting process. I hope I get the choice to keep it confidential. I've noticed that the FAA is shutdown right now but they are still taking reports. I therefore presume it will be a while before I hear anything, if I hear anything at all.
Thank you for being open enough to apologize. Consider it forgiven. I appreciate you saying that.
I know it may cause him a little heart burn but if the FAA deem him fit to fly after then who am I to question it? I think they need to know the whole story. One of my biggest concerns is that I see jail time could be a result. I don't won't that for this guy though.
I don’t think you’re a nark. I think you have at best hearsay information combined with some firsthand experience that is unverified except through assumptions you’ve made. I think you feel you have a duty to report. Fine; just realize the nature of the accusations your making against someone that you may not know as well as you think you do.
ETA: the worst case scenario is your buddy defrauded the government in his PTSD claim and falsified a federal document; if convicted, either or both can land him to a federal prison.
My largest issue is instead of addressing your concerns directly with the person in question, you’d rather report to the FAA and view that as a noble deed.
Your buddy could also be a liar. He might have a 50% disability rating, which is enough to get DV plates in Texas. It could also be the DV plates are registered under a spouses name and he’s just driving a car that’s legally authorized to bear DV plates.
We recently had someone on this board who was reported to the FAA simply for making a sarcastic comment on Facebook. While Bryan ended up with as good an outcome as possible, in reality he now has a permanent record with the FAA that questions his decision making.
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I am genuinely interested; how would you address this directly with the guy without putting his back up? Assuming he shouldn't be flying, do you think he is ready to hang up his wings after a conversation with me?
I won’t make the assumption he shouldn’t be flying, but here goes:
Hey Gary, I’ve noticed some potentially neurological issues and I’m concerned about your overall health. You’ve mentioned your VA disability before, which makes me feel you may not be at your best when flying.
And, coupled with the fact you told me you do not disclose your disabilities to the FAA like you’re required to, I’m really concerned, to the point of reporting these issues to the FAA.
I’d be glad to walk with you through this process, but if you’re not willing to put your health first, I will call the FAA right now.
And then do so.
Ravioli
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@Pete Hope - You can't un-ring a bell.
Scenario 1 - You speak to him about your concerns. He says, "mind your own bee's wax." Friend lost.
Scenario 2 - You report. You see him after and he says, "someone reported me the FAA." Do you tell him it was you? Do you conceal that from him? Friend probably lost.
Scenario 3 - The report is deemed to be unwarranted. Does he file the FOIA request to learn more? Do they tell him before you do? Friend lost.
Scenario 4 - They actually do yank his medical and throw the book at him. Again, do you tell him it was you? Friend better not be packin' a gat.
It's a serious thing you're considering doing. No good deed goes unpunished.
Scenario 1 - You speak to him about your concerns. He says, "mind your own bee's wax." Friend lost.
Scenario 2 - You report. You see him after and he says, "someone reported me the FAA." Do you tell him it was you? Do you conceal that from him? Friend probably lost.
Scenario 3 - The report is deemed to be unwarranted. Does he file the FOIA request to learn more? Do they tell him before you do? Friend lost.
Scenario 4 - They actually do yank his medical and throw the book at him. Again, do you tell him it was you? Friend better not be packin' a gat.
It's a serious thing you're considering doing. No good deed goes unpunished.
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Yeah it’s definitely reportable. Just like the 4 who got indicted in Cali earlier last year, they probably thought the FAA isn’t looking into this stuff. I think the word is getting out though and there are guys either scrambling to get the VA diagnosis removed, or they’re trying to get an SI for it so they no longer have to mark “no” on box 18.
The VA system is a joke though. 60% disability and a tax free $1,200 a month check for a bunch of little BS that is impossible to connect with service. The WWII guys have got to be rolling in their graves. It’s no wonder that some say by 2040, personnel costs will be the biggest DoD budget item. Then the whole PTSD thing. Yep, like my grandfather, plenty have seen horrific things and truly have issues coping. The problem with the system though is money doesn’t take away the pain. Just provide free psychological counseling (they do) and medication. When you’re paying out $3,000 a tax free a month for an illness, unfortunately that entices malingering. Like this former Marine who should’ve known better.
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/louisville/press-releases/2010/lo021910.htm
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Sinistar
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There is only like one possible outcome that limits potential damage all around with a (*)
1.) You tell him your concerns and what you think you need to do (ie report him).
2.) He decides to quite flying commercial aviation
3.) He decides to sell his GA aircraft (if its not Light Sport)
4.) He never goes in for another medical, so he ends on a valid 1st, 2nd or 3rd class.
5.) He gets a Light Sport aircraft and ideally just flys by himself
6* He never crashses and kills anyone on the ground or riding with him
...everyone is kinda happy, he doesn't get any Federal fines or jail time, etc.
...odds of him being open to that are probably like -42%. But the irony is if he isn't open to that type of scenario, he may never legally fly again between all the medical stuff required and the lying on MedExpress.
1.) You tell him your concerns and what you think you need to do (ie report him).
2.) He decides to quite flying commercial aviation
3.) He decides to sell his GA aircraft (if its not Light Sport)
4.) He never goes in for another medical, so he ends on a valid 1st, 2nd or 3rd class.
5.) He gets a Light Sport aircraft and ideally just flys by himself
6* He never crashses and kills anyone on the ground or riding with him
...everyone is kinda happy, he doesn't get any Federal fines or jail time, etc.
...odds of him being open to that are probably like -42%. But the irony is if he isn't open to that type of scenario, he may never legally fly again between all the medical stuff required and the lying on MedExpress.
I agree with your sentiments; there is no honor among those malingering or defrauding the government.
And for those proven to have a disability rating and failing to report it in MedExpress, throw the book at them.
We’re not talking some dude off the street; most, if not all these cases involve college educated people well aware of what the right thing to do is, who were expected at one point to be the epitome of integrity who then throw it in the toilet for, at most, $36,000/year tax free and then to knowingly falsify a federal document afterwards.
As a retired officer, those dudes embarrass me and are an embarrassment to the military.
bnt83
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Healthy servicemen getting disability benefits while patients who need real care take a number.
Force them to pay back the benefits then give them a choice, 2000 hours of community service at a VA hospital or 14 months prison
Force them to pay back the benefits then give them a choice, 2000 hours of community service at a VA hospital or 14 months prison
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Curiosity is killing the cat.
Brad Z
Final Approach
So any feedback on the reporting process? Is the other pilot still flying?