What to do?

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
24,257
Location
UQACY, WI
Display Name
Display name:
iMooniac
Pulled from another thread... I'd like to continue with this scenario:

flyingcheesehead said:
You're going on a cross country flight with some friends, loaded to gross with people and fuel. Conditions at IPT are 00000KT OVC006 and 1SM. You take off, and at 600 AGL/1100 MSL you enter the clag, just as you have an engine fail. You already noted, of course, that the takeoff mins and obstacle departure procedure state that you should climb via the ILS localizer front course or PIX NDB to 2500 feet and that you need to maintain a minimum climb gradient of 255'/nm to 1600 feet.

IIRC, the Seminole's Vyse is 88 knots. I don't have the charts handy for performance data at the moment, but you'd probably be lucky to get 100fpm out of the Seminole - Single-engine service ceiling is only 3800 feet, which means the best you could possibly do is 50fpm at 3800, so 100fpm shouldn't be too out of line. At 1.5nm/min, that means your climb gradient after the failure is 67'/nm. Assuming you got to 600' (AGL, 1100' MSL) in one mile with both engines, a fairly reasonable assumption, that puts you below the climb gradient after 2.83 nautical miles, at about 1250 MSL. So far, that's only a loss of the terrain separation required by TERPS, but there's rocks below causing that. The best you can do is to stay on the localizer at Vyse.

It won't be enough. By my calculations, the aircraft wreckage will be found at approximately 2200 MSL on the side of North Mountain.
Click to expand...

As an alternative, I had suggested this possibility:

flyingcheesehead said:
At that point, 1nm from the airport and 600 AGL there's a potentially better option - You're almost up to circling minimums, so you could make a left turn (note the "circling south of runway 9-27 NA" on the plate), probably a 210-degree teardrop, and then let down until you can see the field (hopefully).
Click to expand...

To which Ron responded:

Ron Levy said:
If I've already entered the clag when I lose one engine in a twin at 600 AGL, I am most unlikely to try a turnback unless I'm on fire. I will already have Vyse and a good bit more by that point, and even if I'm above the circling mins, I'm almost certainly well outside the protected zone for circling (see Figure 5-4-23 in AIM Section 5-4-20f) so I have no idea what altitude to which I can safely descend. Therefore, if the airplane is still flying and there's no reason to believe any more problems are imminent, I'll fly the SIAP.
Click to expand...

Using the assumptions in my original scenario, you lose the engine at 600 AGL, one mile from the airport as you enter the clouds (and there's also only one mile vis.)

If you're in the situation where you try to keep flying and potentially smack the side of the mountain... Well, what would you do? You can't climb enough to get back to a published portion of the approach as high as you should.

If you keep flying the ODP, you have two more miles to where you're below the required climb gradient.

If you turn around, right away, you're below circling minimums.

If you turn around at the point where you've climbed to circling minimums, you're outside the protected airspace for circling.

So, what do you do? (I know the right answer is "don't get into this situation in the first place" but that's too easy of an answer, and won't lead to much discussion. ;))

Here's the only approach to that airport: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0712/00457I27.PDF

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 9, 600-1 required or std.
with a min. climb of 255' per NM to 1600. (The other runways are all more restrictive.)

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 9, climb straight
ahead to 2500 via PIX NDB or IPT LOC Front Course
before proceeding on course.
 
Sounds like a crap-shoot to me. Go with whatever is your strongest skill. Either way, it's not a pretty picture. I guess we can wind back time and decide to stay on the ground until the clag is less formidable ?
 
Kent, I hav flown into IPT several times. Turning left will surely get you killed. There is a very big wall of rock the only option as I see it is to continue the climb albeit at a not many fpm and follow the Missed procedure. If you can't make it to 3700', You have a better chance of turning north rather than south to the right.
 
I have HARPED on departing undergross - in my Seneca II 200 undergross will result in being able to make 225 feet per nm.

This is the difference between a pilot and an airman. The airman makes alternate plans. A fully loaded Seminole is but a lead sled. When the situation is such that the bird cannot give you a useable SE option, you have chosen your end.

That is why, when I am at gross, I meet my guests at the adjacent 10,000 foot triple ILS airport. In this case it would be KAVP, Wilkes Barre, and 24 nm to Lake Henry VOR at 4000. That way I have the ability to close throttles and land, or to proceed to Lake Henry and return to the airport.

Kent, start studying for the ATP written exam. It'll change the way you plan. :)
 
You're most likely dead. There is no way you're going to be doing the math on this when it happens. If you thought about this in advance you might have a chance as you'll have a preprogrammed response. This is why it's critical to brief yourself on a departure failure before you take the runway. When the failure happens you will do your programmed reaction. I really wish that more instructors would enforce an emergency departure brief early in the training.

This is one of those superior judgment vs superior skill items. Best not to put yourself in this situation. I have made flights where an engine loss would result in my demise and I try to avoid it. When I lived in Minneapolis I calculated that an engine failure on departure at a certain airport would be fatal in a 172. I switched airports and drove 30 minutes every flight to avoid it. Way too much exposure to make it a habit. I was probably overly paranoid--but that's what judgment is all about.
 
Last edited:
First things first, clean the plane up and slam your head into the panel and say "stupid stupid stupid", ok you got that out of the way for being stupid enough to depart at gross into the clag in a Seminole. You're reasonably screwed so prayer is in order at this point as well as you let the plane stabilize into Vyse. Now the real question is "What is the plane doing?" am I climbing or sinking? I'm assuming I've taken off on 09. If I'm climbing, or at least holding my own, I'd do a smooth Williamson turn to the north and try to get back onto the ILS for 27. More than likely though, unless that Seminole is really well tweeked tuned and rigged, at gross right after takeoff on one, I'm losing ground, in that case I'd lower the nose and pull a tight keyhole turn ASAP (before I get to the tower by the river) to 270 stabilize back to Vyse hopefully finding the localizer before breaking out. If I was sinking hard at Vyse, I'd just put the nose down to break out and try to find a survivable place to go.
 
Henning said:
I'd do a smooth Williamson turn .
Click to expand...

I was under the impression this was a man overboard maneuver in a boat/ship/.Although I was in the Navy, I was aboard a Sub. If during surface steaming (Done only during departure or return to Port ) if someone went over board, the duty diver jumped in with him and they were to wait on the tug to pick them up. I have heard of it but have no clue as to how to do the maneuver. Could you explain how it is done both in an a/c and boat?
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
I was under the impression this was a man overboard maneuver in a boat/ship/.Although I was in the Navy, I was aboard a Sub. If during surface steaming (Done only during departure or return to Port ) if someone went over board, the duty diver jumped in with him and they were to wait on the tug to pick them up. I have heard of it but have no clue as to how to do the maneuver. Could you explain how it is done both in an a/c and boat?
Click to expand...

There isn't much to it. If you do it right you'll find it's a really good way to turn the airplane around. Take note of 180 degrees opposite your current heading. Now bank at a defined rate until you are 60 degrees or so off course. Now bank back at the same rate and roll level at the 180 degree opposite heading you took note of. You should now be going the opposite direction over the same ground track.

This method makes it easy to turn the plane around to intercept the localizer as you should roll out right on it. If you bank to one direction it will take * a lot * more work to intercept the localizer.
 
Last edited:
cherokeeflyboy said:
what is the defined rate of bank?
Click to expand...
Whatever you want. Just need to maintain the same thing throughout. Your roll rate when you make all the turns should be the same as well.

It's easy on a boat. I assume you'd just do full rudder.
 
AdamZ said:
Kent, I hav flown into IPT several times. Turning left will surely get you killed. There is a very big wall of rock the only option as I see it is to continue the climb albeit at a not many fpm and follow the Missed procedure. If you can't make it to 3700', You have a better chance of turning north rather than south to the right.
Click to expand...

Adam,

This is a takeoff scenario (from runway 9), not a miss. I'm under the impression, based on the plate, that a left turn (while flying east off runway 9, so a turn to the north) is OK, but a turn to the south will get ya killed. "Circling south of 9-27 NA."
 
bbchien said:
Kent, start studying for the ATP written exam. It'll change the way you plan. :)
Click to expand...

*I* wouldn't plan on doing things this way... It was just a semi-random scenario to show that twins aren't always invincible. :)

I did carefully plan out the performance last time I flew the Seneca. I was amazed that the plane, despite the 12,000+ hours on the airframe, still achieved book performance. Wow! :goofy:
 
Henning said:
First things first, clean the plane up and slam your head into the panel and say "stupid stupid stupid", ok you got that out of the way for being stupid enough to depart at gross into the clag in a Seminole.
Click to expand...

LOL... This reminds me of Ed Guthrie's post quite a while back about a gloomy scenario in which the final step was "Beat yourself unconscious with your 2-d flashlight." :rofl:
 
What would you do in a single-engine airplane if this happened? The only difference here is that the twin gives you a better chance because you still have some climb (or at least, a lesser sink) rate.
 
Ron Levy said:
What would you do in a single-engine airplane if this happened?
Click to expand...

Depends on the runway length, rate of climb, angle of climb, glide ratio, and wind direction. Most pilots haven't ran those numbers for each plane they fly and would probably crash.
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
I was under the impression this was a man overboard maneuver in a boat/ship/.Although I was in the Navy, I was aboard a Sub. If during surface steaming (Done only during departure or return to Port ) if someone went over board, the duty diver jumped in with him and they were to wait on the tug to pick them up. I have heard of it but have no clue as to how to do the maneuver. Could you explain how it is done both in an a/c and boat?
Click to expand...

Constant rate 60* turn one direction reverse the helm to the same rate the other direction until you are 180* from your origional course. This should have you heading back the other direction on your previous track line. In a boat, you use helm full over, in a plane OEI I'd probably select 1/2 standard rate.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Adam,

This is a takeoff scenario (from runway 9), not a miss. I'm under the impression, based on the plate, that a left turn (while flying east off runway 9, so a turn to the north) is OK, but a turn to the south will get ya killed. "Circling south of 9-27 NA."
Click to expand...

Sorry Kent must have missed that. I have only ever departed 9 once at IPT usually its 27 that must have been stuck in my head. You are correct left turn off of 9 is north doh. Departing 9 and turning right to early will get you rocks in your face. If you get far enough out you can turn right but I wouldn't want to guess when. When flying into IPT I come in from the southeast and Twr always asks to report turning around the mountiain. Bruces answer is probably best if you can maintain and gain any alt. KAVP would be the place to go if turning would cause you to loose alt.

Just curious are you planning on visiting IPT after the FlyBQ this year:D?
 
Get the inevitable over with, spin it in. LOL

Why are you flying a Seminole to begin with? Ugh.
 
Do you know the terrain around the airport or not? In this case, home field advantage might help make the choice for you.

If you don't know the area, well, we'll read about you in "Aftermath" and say "WTF was he thinking??!!!!"
 
Henning said:
, in a plane OEI I'd probably select 1/2 standard rate.
Click to expand...

Why such a shallow turn? A 30 or even 45 degree bank would get you turned around with less altitude loss and keep you a lot closer to the protected airspace. Granted 45 degrees might be "interesting" with OEI, but 30-35 should be within the grasp of most competent ME pilots.
 
lancefisher said:
Why such a shallow turn? A 30 or even 45 degree bank would get you turned around with less altitude loss and keep you a lot closer to the protected airspace. Granted 45 degrees might be "interesting" with OEI, but 30-35 should be within the grasp of most competent ME pilots.
Click to expand...
Well, the Williamson turn was in the case of actually climbing, and the half std or possibly std rate may maintain a +ROC. If I was descending, I said I would have done a tight keyhole.
 
The key phrase, IMO, is
You already noted, of course, that the takeoff mins and obstacle departure procedure state that you should climb via the ILS localizer front course or PIX NDB to 2500 feet and that you need to maintain a minimum climb gradient of 255'/nm to 1600 feet.
Click to expand...
While the FAA clearly states that climb gradient requirements are "all engines", this is a go/no-go item for me.

My Dad likes to use the term "businessman's risk" when taking off when you can't make the climb gradient single-engine. You're throwing all your eggs into one basket, and betting your life that the engine won't quit. I'm not a businessman, I don't take businessman's risk. I'm a pilot (well, I guess I'd rather say "aviator" by Bruce's definition), and I have a plan for the engine failure.

If I can reduce the load to make the gradient single-engine, great. If not, can I come up with an alternate emergency plan? If so, great. If not, well, it's a no-go.

This alternate emergency plan, by the way, is a good thing even if you CAN make the climb gradient single-engine. Engine failures aren't the only emergency, you know.

Fly safe!

David
 
MauleSkinner said:
While the FAA clearly states that climb gradient requirements are "all engines", this is a go/no-go item for me.
Click to expand...
Does this mean you never fly single engine aircraft? Only multiengine aircraft whose OEI performance ensures all required climb gradients for the conditions (altitude, temp, load, etc)?
 
Well, Ron, in my case, if there will be a load/condition where I cannot survive on one, I need a bigger aircraft. Fortunately I'm a small guy.

That is why my mins at ASE are at 10,800....the MAP gradient on ONE.

Exception: 6Y9. But there I went in solo. Not taking my famiily in when they have no way to judge risks. They trust me with that; I regard that seriously.
 
bbchien said:
Exception: 6Y9. But there I went in solo. Not taking my famiily in when they have no way to judge risks. They trust me with that; I regard that seriously.
Click to expand...

That touches upon another "what to do" type question.

So Bruce, I meet you at 6Y9 and ask you for a ride out. Considering I know and can calculate the risks inside out, would you take me, and if so, what kind of disclaimer or information would you feel obligated to give me?

I.E. If you are willing to expose yourself to a greater risk than pax, is this on a sliding scale or banket policy. Anyone is of course welcome to answer.

BTW, Sorry about the hijack
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Does this mean you never fly single engine aircraft? Only multiengine aircraft whose OEI performance ensures all required climb gradients for the conditions (altitude, temp, load, etc)?
Click to expand...
I'm also curious about people's feeling about this. Even normal instrument departures without special gradients assume an ability to climb at 200'/nm which is a 3.3% gradient. You're obviously not going to do that if you lose your engine in a single. Even in a light twin climbing at 100 kts. you need 330 fpm, on one engine. I'm not sure how many light twins have that climb capability, especially at higher altitudes and temperatures.

I think it comes down to your own individual tolerance for risk and I think that varies widely depending on the person and the situation.
 
Henning, It's all situations.

My Sister is a PVT ASEL who hasn't flow in 26 years. My preflight brief would be quite simple: If we have an engine failure, we have a 15% chance of dying. Are Sterling and Katherine well provided for?

If it were Bob Hoover, I wouldn't say a word. I might even let him have the departure, after being briefed in type. That guy has discipline.

Nonpilot - there would have to be a GOOD REASON to take that person. I would not give it a blink departing from a 10,000 foot runway (Escanaba) in 800-3, however.
 
Ron Levy said:
Does this mean you never fly single engine aircraft? Only multiengine aircraft whose OEI performance ensures all required climb gradients for the conditions (altitude, temp, load, etc)?
Click to expand...
No...that means since I can't make the climb gradient with an engine inop, I have to come up with an alternate emergency plan to fly.

Fly safe!

David
 
AdamZ said:
Just curious are you planning on visiting IPT after the FlyBQ this year:D?
Click to expand...

No. If I did, Missa wouldn't have anything to complain about. :rofl:

EdFred said:
Get the inevitable over with, spin it in. LOL

Why are you flying a Seminole to begin with? Ugh.
Click to expand...

You'd have to ask Ted, I gave him the Seminole in this scenario. :rofl: That's why it's at IPT after all...
 
I've had a few days to think about this, and my answer is the same as if I had an engine failure shortly after takeoff in a seminole on a high hot day...

I'd pull both engines back (now I don't have to worry about asymmetric thrust and Vmc), and treat it like a failure in a single (set up for minimum sink or best glide), and concentrate on maintaining control of the airplane and coming back to earth with minimal energy. Once I was in VMC I MIGHT bring the good engine up slowly and try to manuever.

I've essentially decided that unless the airplane can climb at a "normal" rate with an engine failure at Vyse, I'm not gonna try to nurse a sick airplane in a flight mode that will require me to be worrying about Vmc and possibly losing control, especially in IMC where the workload is already high. I'll just treat it the same way I would in a single. Once I have altitude and terrain clearance, then I have a bunch of good options in the event of a failure.

Once I'm airborne, the airplane belongs to the insurance company. My priority is my ass (and those of my passengers). My review of accidents has convinced me that crashing with positive control of the airplane is more survivable than attempting to manuever at the edges of the envelope, particularly in a light twin with one engine out.
 
Last edited:
I would conduct the pre-dearture briefing. If a multi engine transition pilot doesn't do this consistently, he eventually wonders why I won't sign him off. And wonders and wonders....and I keep telling him and he wonders....

An amazing number of ME pilots don't do the pre-departure briefing. Make your decisions in ADVANCE (as much as you can), ON THE GROUND. You're more rational.
 
I ALWAYS conduct a pre-departure briefing, even if I'm by myself. It always covers what actions will be taken for abnormals during the takeoff roll, the initial climb, and the departure.

A multiengine airplane doesn't make the decision process easier, it makes it more complicated. Best to do the thinking on the ground. There's a reason the airlines have "standard" procedures - they've learned from everyone's mistakes, worked out courses of action in a nice warm room on the ground, practiced them in a nice safe simulator, and seen that it works out on the line.

This is a good topic - I'm gonna make it a safety briefing presentation in the spring.
 
bbchien said:
...he eventually wonders why I won't sign him off. And wonders and wonders....and I keep telling him and he wonders....
Click to expand...
Amazing how many pilots are like that :(

bbchien said:
An amazing number of ME pilots don't do the pre-departure briefing. Make your decisions in ADVANCE (as much as you can), ON THE GROUND. You're more rational.
Click to expand...
I second that...any decision that needs to be made below MSA should be made on the ground.

Fly safe!

David
 
<500' straight ahead. >500 feet, 180 back to the field. I am fairly confident this is doable in the Cherokee. However, I also have a preliminary sales agreement in my hand to get rid of it, and the next aircraft will take a few hours to figure out what it is and isn't capable of in that regards.
 
I'd use the terrain feature and moving map on the Garmin 496 to follow the valley defined by the west branch of the Susquehanna River, as I climb to the MEA or other safe altitude... I don't want to be found at 2200' on the side of that mountain.

Gotta love the new terrain feature on Google Maps! I can see why it says not to circle south...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...-76.92421&spn=0.063506,0.172005&t=p&z=13&om=1

And to reiterate what Jesse said, this is why a good IFR departure briefing INCLUDES looking at a VFR sectional to get an idea of the terrain, not just reading the ODP and looking at the MEAs... you gotta have a plan...
 
Last edited:
TangoWhiskey said:
I'd use the terrain feature and moving map on the Garmin 496 to follow the valley defined by the west branch of the Susquehanna River, as I climb to the MEA or other safe altitude...
Click to expand...

Man, that's almost cheating! ;)

We got the terrain upgrade on the old 430 for $600 a couple years ago, and then they included it with the 430W upgrade. Oh well... It's a good feature.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top