Why the deal fell apart. . . .

Why would you buy a Mooney ? Don't you already have a Comanche ?
 
The Comanche is a wannabe Mooney anyway, so it is a natural progression.
 
Everskyward said:
Not sure about the other stuff, but "outside Chicago" does not necessarily mean Illinois, since Wisconsin is not that far away...
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I would agree on that point, but there are enough red flags in this that the OP has every right in this case to tell the ‘seller’to F off.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My guess is he decided he didn't want to sell the plane to you.
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Certainly possible, but this after the initial hassle the guy was giving him makes me suspect the owner didn't really want to sell the airplane in the first place.

You gotta give the OP credit. We all piled on him in the first thread about the $150 Uber and he actually ate his serving of humble pie and went back to try and salvage the deal.

There are plenty of good airplanes out there to spend money on.
 
Weird deal from the sounds of it. Of course we only have one side of the story. Not sure I'd feel the need to make a @denverpilot type post rationalizing my decision. Kudos to the seller for making a lawyer doubt themselves enough to rant on the interwebz. (snark, snark)
 
Ravioli said:
If it is in Racine or someplace right over the southern border I'd advertise as Chicago area since people don't know the towns. If it is in Wausau that's a material difference.
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^ This. People in Kenosha, WI commute to jobs in Chicago. One of my daughter's roommates says she's from Charlotte, and that she lives in SC. Huh? Look at a map, you can be in SC and in the burbs of Charlotte.

Doesn't mean the deal was good, but sometimes it's easier telling someone that far away a name they recognize.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
Fearless Tower said:
Certainly possible, but this after the initial hassle the guy was giving him makes me suspect the owner didn't really want to sell the airplane in the first place.

You gotta give the OP credit. We all piled on him in the first thread about the $150 Uber and he actually ate his serving of humble pie and went back to try and salvage the deal.

There are plenty of good airplanes out there to spend money on.
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You may be correct. And to be clear, I'm not saying the seller was in the right - if he'd acted that way to me, I would've walked, too.

Two sides to every story. As they say there's his side, her side, and the truth.
 
bradg33 said:
As a less-experienced litigator, I think you did the right thing. As anyone who has done any commercial litigation knows, there's usually a reason when someone doesn't want to reduce their agreements to writing or doesn't want to answer questions about what they're selling. Sure, sometimes they're just grumpy or busy, but many times it's because something isn't being disclosed.
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As a non-litigator I'm leery of contracts from lawyers. Write a contract with another non-lawyer for a car sale? Sure, I've done that a few times. No qualms.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
comanchepilot said:
We're planing on moving to Prescott in a couple years - we're gonna need a turbo to make the trips a little safer.
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And here I thought that Prescott was my own little secret! Seems Embry Riddle doesn't have too many issues despite the elevation, but having a bit more power never hurts.

Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t know your friends friendy friend, I will tell you that the biggest screw job I’ve ever had involved a “friend” with no written agreement. It was a handshake deal with a guy I thought I could trust. Iwas wrong. It really hurt to be wrong... and not have a written agreement.
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Agreed. Had a similar handshake agreement on a business dealing and despite meetings, emails, meeting minutes... only to end up with a business contract that was not counter signed and a royally jacked-up situation that continues be a thorn in my side. Terms need to be written and met clearly, the deal needs to be clean... otherwise just walk away.
 
weilke said:
Why would you buy a Mooney ? Don't you already have a Comanche ?
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I'd rather spend $85k and have 10 years to a motor - and then sell mine for $85k, than put $35k into a motor . . . nothing wrong with my airplane.

I know I'm a pain in the rear on deals - because I can see the pitfalls and try to work them out ahead of time - so the sellers of every airplane, house and car I've bought go - gee, that was easy. Because it can be- use your brain before hand. I positively HATE scrambling around at the last minute because you KNOW what is going to be needed. I also like to tell people what to expect, but that sounds like overanalyzing - "I'll plan on arriving this day, I'll verify the airplane is as stated, then in the am [a Monday] I'll confirm the release of your money - and you can then tell whomever you have the keys to, to release them to me." This way everyone knows whats expected. Otherwise, the seller wanders off that day to go play golf and can't be reached and everyone is ****ing away daylight . . . I've had it happen on non-aviation deals. I don't have 36 hours to waste while a seller gets around to releasing me my property. Its not like he's willing to come up from Florida to give me the keys and pick up a check. That would have worked too.

I'll tell you all again - the airplane is presently at an airport without rail, bus or scheduled air service. You can also not drop off a rental car from H/A/B/N/Alamo within 30 miles. Enterprise has a location 20 miles away. Its not in Racine, Kenosha or Milwaukee. Not even Waukesha. I asked it be delivered to Waukesha because I can drop a car off at that airport. I adapted!

Oh well - just venting my frustration I guess.

I'm not sure I'd do a handshake deal with someone I don't know in 2017 for anything more substantial than a cheap used car. But a cheap used car can even need a $1000 transmission or a $1600 motor. But at least you're right there - looking the guy in the eye.
 
comanchepilot said:
I'll tell you all again - the airplane is presently at an airport without rail, bus or scheduled air service.
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Leave California much? That is a pretty funny statement when you are looking for an airplane. Very very few airports (and almost none of them in the midwest) have rail, bus, or scheduled air service.

I've been involved in lots of aircraft purchases in the midwest. They've all involved friends (usually of the buyer) that help with the transportation issues. That's just how life works around here...
 
jesse said:
Leave California much? That is a pretty funny statement when you are looking for an airplane. Very very few airports (and almost none of them in the midwest) have rail, bus, or scheduled air service.

I've been involved in lots of aircraft purchases in the midwest. They've all involved friends (usually of the buyer) that help with the transportation issues. That's just how life works around here...
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and the seller had no friends, no relatives, no offer to move the airplane 20 miles, much less help me get anywhere. I understand that.

Yes - I have flown in the midwest. I understand its my responsibility to get the airplane.

But when your ad says the airplane is outside Chicago under the Class B- and you make the deal based on the airplane being outside Chicago - and its in rural Wisconsin - and its where is as is - it tends to throw a monkey wrench into things.

I prob could have gotten there - in fact - I was willing to pay to get the airplane someplace else. And if it were April through October - its would not have mattered much if I got stuck for weather somewhere for a day or two - but its not. It's December. Its why the Seller is in Florida. I don't necessarily want to stay in Bob's Rooming House either. And my friends are not flying me to Wisconsin from California either.
 
Rural Wisconsin is just outside Chicago. The Chicago class b is about 5 miles from the state line.

Anyhow...deal is over...time to find another.
 
The simple answer is you're not the bad guy.

http://m.allamericanaircraft.com/

This is one of the larger Mooney brokers. I believe there's a MSC on the field. A number of folks on Mooneyspace.com have spoken highly of them. Might be a better option for a sight unseen deal.

comanchepilot said:
Ok - so I agree to pay someone to ferry the airplane.

I agreed to pay for 100% of the escrow.

The deal fell apart when I asked who owned the airplane, and who was signing the sales contract and how to prove the current annual is being paid for by the Seller.

Here are the facts:

Airplane advertised as having 12/1 annual. [obviously it cannot yet]

Airplane advertised as being outside Chicago.

Airplane advertised as being owned by Seller.

Spoke with the mechanic and we discussed the squawks and proposed repairs and issues around any deferred maintenance - first call showed there wasn't any.

True state of facts:

Airplane is in southern Wisconsin - seller told me the sale is where it is. He's in Florida and not interested in moving the airplane.

Annual is not yet completed - nor paid for. [I assumed it wasn't signed off yet]

Seller has given a bill of sale to a broker - and now wants the broker to complete the transaction and will not be the seller any longer. Nor will he sign an agreement making the representations he made in the ad to sell the airplane.

Seller has removed certain items from the aircraft rather than repair them. [Mooney gear mods] Without disclosing it to me - I found out after a second call to the mechanic.

What I was willing to do and what I asked:

Pay the broker to fly the airplane back to 'civilization.' And pay to have it stored.

I asked the Seller and broker to sign the sales agreement - apparently they have some kind of deal on proceeds - but the broker presently has a bill of sale. I understand straw man deals like this -I've done M&A. But someone needs to make the representations they originally agreed to make - and actually made.

I asked for Escrow - so I have a title search and proper filing of the Bills of Sale. And verification they are properly completed.

I asked for a paid receipt from the annual to be deposited into Escrow. How else do I know the bill has been paid? Alternatively, I asked the bill for the annual be paid from escrow.

I asked about the removed parts - and why the repair is being deferred - I know - but I want to hear the explanation from the Seller as to why he didn't tell me about this after listing these parts as installed on the aircraft.

What happened:

Seller said I was being unreasonable - too many questions. Never answered who was the seller, who would sign the agreement. He just wanted to hand out a bill of sale and be done with it - not what we discussed last week.

So - deal is done. On to another airplane.

What I told him was:
I need to protect MY interest in this transaction. I'm happy to send a mechanic out and we can bicker over the what needs to be fixed or not - but I"m satisfied with the aircraft condition from 2000 miles away. However, I need to make sure I get what you are advertising. If you think all these other buyers will miraculously appear and not do a prepurchase inspection - fine. Go ahead. Walk away from me.

Maybe after 35 years of litigating - I don't trust anybody. You're representing a current annual - is it paid for? No its not.

Thus I risk a lien on the aircraft if you don't pay the bill. Hence the paid receipt.

If I buy the airplane from [the broker], you're legally not the seller - your warranties and representations are legally worthless because [the broker] could be responsible.

Are the AD's all properly complied with? I don't know - your mechanic is on the hook until the next annual. In the agreement.

I don't play games - either way. I want an enforceable agreement with the person selling the airplane. Not some broker I don't know that you selected and owe money to.

You owned a business for decades and I'm sure you made sure when you did a deal you get the deal you did.

Your ad states the aircraft is in Illinois. It's not.

Your ad states the aircraft has a 12/1/18 annual - its does not yet.

Your ad states you own the aircraft. You apparently do not.

So - you want to blame me for this - fine. Blame me. I"m the bad guy.





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jkaduk said:
Yea, why not a Bonanza?
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50000 more reasons.

I have a good 2 ax AP, a 530w, a 330ES, fuel flow, storm scope, HSI, engine monitor - a known airframe and motor -

have looked to see what a Bonanza like that costs? Esp if I want to upgrade to a Turbo?

I'm slowing convincing myself to just spend the money to do my motor and prop . . . too bad I can't find the turbo parts to just turbo my airplane. It's all the same TC. . . I could do it just for parts.
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm slowing convincing myself to just spend the money to do my motor and prop . . .
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IMHO that would be my choice. I really like Comanches compared to Bo's (Expensive) and Mooneys (Relatively small). Ever consider a Bellanca Super Viking or a Commander 114?
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm slowing convincing myself to just spend the money to do my motor and prop . . . too bad I can't find the turbo parts to just turbo my airplane. It's all the same TC. . . I could do it just for parts.
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I had recalled there was a RayJay STC or the like out there that applied to the Comanche. But this was a long time ago, as I was also considering it for my Aztec.

Comanches are great birds.
 
comanchepilot said:
I'm slowing convincing myself to just spend the money to do my motor and prop . . . too bad I can't find the turbo parts to just turbo my airplane. It's all the same TC. . . I could do it just for parts.
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About two years ago I hooked someone up with the turbo bits from a TC that went off the end of a runway with 6 adults on board.... I want to say he settled on 12k just for the parts.
 
@Mtns2Skies

owned a Turbo Viking - my runway excursion is the one that generated the 50 hour nose gear AD. [broken steering knuckle from stress - inspections now required] Wife would not get into one again - plus- they're really inefficient - like using a Tesla drive train for a huge SUV / pick up. 300hp and I only saw 170kts above 17000' -

Commanders would work - i was trying to get a decent airplane for almost no extra money as in a trade - I have a $40k bill coming in a couple of years and don't need range, speed and payload any longer - I could lose a little payload and be ok with it- and TC114's are 20 or so AMU's more - spend that and the extra 20AMU for my known airplane starts to make a ton of sense.

As I said my avionics package is perfect for today - its hard to reproduce. . . . and I'm NOT spending money on avionics!

@weilke - yeah - its only a turbocharger, a housing for the compression of the intake stream, a wastegate and a cable - and few tubes. Amazing its that expensive - and its only normalized! That's the best kind of turbocharging if you ask me.
 
Sounds to me like you ought to just keep what you have. You certainly don’t need a turbo to fly out of Prescott. It would be nice, sure, but necessary by any means.
 
Well, there's always a 400...
 
Everskyward said:
Not sure about the other stuff, but "outside Chicago" does not necessarily mean Illinois, since Wisconsin is not that far away...
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Technically, "outside Chicago" could be anywhere in the world. :eek:
 
I didn't think you were off base on the ride part in the other thread...and I certainly don't think you are off base now.

Deals that are hard to get in are usually hard to get out of...
 
No offense to Joe, but I’d probably walk from this buyer if I was the seller. The guy is a thousand miles away and hired a broker to make it a turn-key transaction. Now he’s reeling a lawyer (I’m sure if the seller didn’t figure it out Joe mentioned it along the way) on the line who’s asking lots of questions. The broker is probably telling him the buyer is unreasonable since it sounds like Joe is trying to go around him and straight to the seller. Either way, it sounds really complicated from an outsider, and whether he’s hiding stuff or not it’s probabl in both parties’ best interests to part ways.
 
Brad Z said:
No offense to Joe, but I’d probably walk from this buyer if I was the seller. The guy is a thousand miles away and hired a broker to make it a turn-key transaction. Now he’s reeling a lawyer (I’m sure if the seller didn’t figure it out Joe mentioned it along the way) on the line who’s asking lots of questions. The broker is probably telling him the buyer is unreasonable since it sounds like Joe is trying to go around him and straight to the seller. Either way, it sounds really complicated from an outsider, and whether he’s hiding stuff or not it’s probabl in both parties’ best interests to part ways.
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If I were the buyer, I don't think I would necessarily have a problem with the seller getting a broker involved, but if the original terms of the deal were not being honored, or if a clear unencumbered title was not assured, I would have a BIG problem with that.
 
Once upon a time....when I moved into the house, I rented the condo (3 blocks away). After a couple years in the condo, the 3rd renter (1st was wonderful but the 2nd kid meant getting a house, the 2nd got evicted), called and wanted to buy the condo, how much would it cost. I offered the 2 years of rent as the down payment (no additional cash), call your lawyer and set up the sale. She did, I ran the contract past my lawyer, everyone was happy. There are very good reasons to use lawyers and contracts - a quality lawyer (which we each had) means the contract is fair to both parties.
 
@Brad Z - actually Brad - the proposed deal was exactly the opposite of your assumption . . .

The seller had the airplane listed in multiple locations. The seller is the registered owner according to the FAA database. The seller, in the middle of our discussions, told me that he was giving the airplane to a 'broker' who has no website, no business license I can find and runs his business off an AOL email address. I was going to now buy the airplane from this third party. Who of course, had no interest in anything other than submitting a bill of sale.

He was trying to avoid liability for any of his representations - my contract is fairly simple and can be used for any transaction. It says you own the asset, the representations you made are true, the annual inspection has been paid for, and the AD's have been complied with. Thats all it says - except for the usual boilerplate you get in a contract to buy a refrigerator.

Don't know what the third party told him - and really don't care at this point.
 
I’m not a lawyer but the seller / broker was misstating facts related to the aircraft and wouldn’t stand behind the original deal. I would have walked away.

If they aren’t being 100% upfront on things you know about you have to wonder what else they aren’t being upfront about. Something I perceive as dishonesty is always a deal killer for me.

Congratulations on the purchase of the other plane.
Gary
 
So, the following is not intended to be personal just my honest evaluation/opinions and a little devil's advocate thrown in after having read through this.

I kinda thought the whole airplane location and getting to it part was a pretty minor deal. Airplanes move from place to place as needed. Also, having lived in WI I know that people heading to FL for the winter is a very common thing so that didn't raise a red flag. Given that he has another airplane it makes sense, as does the broker. He probably asked a friend to broker it for him since he couldn't be there- my plane was actually sold this way and it wasn't an issue. I'd have simply found a way to get there if I really wanted the airplane. Also as someone who has never lived in/near a major metro area I would consider any town big enough to have an airport to be civilization and might take some offense to someone suggesting otherwise.

The annual thing is the first red flag for me but simply not putting down any money or signing anything before it was completed and paid for would solve that to my satisfaction. It is a little fishy that he'd listed it as done when it hand't been done yet- were I selling it I'd have listed it as "annual due dec, will be completed before sale" or something along those lines.

Removing stuff from the plane is definitely fishy. It that equipment was already listed as broken/defective then ok but why even list it if you were removing it? If it was listed as something that it had and not broken and he removed it rather than repair... that's an instant walk away for me. I don't blame you one bit if that was the case.

Now, all that said... putting myself in the seller's shoes...
If a litigious type kept pushing me on a ton of details and asking for all sorts of written statements beyond a simple as-is sales contract I'd be uncomfortable even if I was being completely honest about everything. I would worry that on the way home or a few hours after purchase something major I didn't know about would fail and that you'd blame me and expect me to pay for it, possibly filing a lawsuit. Ligit or not, simply being sued and having to defend yourself is very worrying to most people.

IMO, and how I handle transactions on anything used, it's the buyer's responsibility to verify anything they want to know about the item. For an aircraft this means a visual inspection by me or someone I know well, an inspection of the logbooks, some basic research(title search, damage history, etc), a pre-buy inspection by a trusted party, and a test flight by me or someone I know. As a seller I expect the buyer to look everything over carefully and make their offer with the understanding that a private party sale is always as-is. As a seller I can't take responsibility for any problems I may not know about that might come up later, as a buyer I can't assume the seller is going to stand by the used item once it's sold.

It shouldn't take pages of paper to understand that. I know this may not be a litigator's way of looking at things and I understand why but IMO if I can't trust a person's word and handshake why would I trust some piece of paper? If I don't think I have enough verification to trust the handshake then why would I do business with the person at all?

Also, most importantly, it's my money and I don't have to buy anything with it if I'm not happy with the conditions. You weren't happy, you didn't buy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Other people's opinions are only valuable as far whether or not you can reasonably expect to get things the way you want in the future.
 
The original complaint of transportation to an airport was petty weak. But as more of the story came out, the deal going south made a little more sense. That seems to be the gist of it.
 
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