When can you afford an airplane?

Jumpmaster said:
I️ find reading these threads amusing and in reality an exercise in rationalization. In my view the bottom line is if you want a plane, buy it. Like owing an RV, a McMansion, a luxury car or boat, many strain mightily to justify the costs associated with each purchase creating straw man arguments knocking down each of them, one by one. Or in other words classic rationalization of making a “want”into a “need.”.
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Aviation is the only industry where I've seen people try to rationalize purchases and account for every dime they spent. I have yet to run into a boat owner or classic car restorer/hot rodder that ever really thinks about the cost. They just buy what they want. Ironically, many boat and car guys don't seem to be nearly as well off as the average airplane guy, yet they manage to figure out how to make their finances work.
 
shinysideup said:
I know this is kind of a loaded question that can be answered in a thousand different ways, but what rule of thumb would you go by for being able to afford sole ownership of say a light piston single?

When you can afford to buy outright?
When you can afford to overhaul without taking a loan?
When you can own the plane and keep the lights on most days of the week?
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The answer to all your questions is: when your wife says: "no, I don't want that old airplane with the fabric wings. I want that pretty new one with the emergency parachute!"
 
Here's my numbers for a M20J at 80k - some estimates in here, but I _think_ they're reasonable.

Finance 72k on a 15 year loan at 6% = $481.13/month
Insurance $267
Tie down $45/month (KHRJ, actual cost).

12 GPH * $3.99 = 47.88/hr for gas
$10 oil every 15 hours
$22/hour for an engine kitty
$15/hour for future maintenance kitty

Total is 1306-1391 per month or about 16k per year.

Note, you could lower this - bigger down payment, newer engine, newer airplane, etc. A 40k down payment and 0 time engine drops it to 1025/month or about 12k/year. That's about a 10 year payback on the down payment
 
shinysideup said:
I know this is kind of a loaded question that can be answered in a thousand different ways, but what rule of thumb would you go by for being able to afford sole ownership of say a light piston single?

When you can afford to buy outright?
When you can afford to overhaul without taking a loan?
When you can own the plane and keep the lights on most days of the week?
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When you can buy the airplane for X, and still be able to spend X/2 (hangar, insurance, maintenance, upgrades, fuel, etc) over the next three years... all in cash.
 
We can fly - tens of thousands of years gone by, millions of people, like us, gone to dust, and kings, emperors, and Da Vincis, too; what would they have thought affordable?

You can get a long-legged, high-speed, continent-crosser like a LongEZ, for less than the price of a SUV - or a low end Cessna, Piper, or Grumman trainer, priced cheaper than a compact car.

Or buy into a plastic partnership for some amount in between. If you fall anywhere within one or two standard deviations from the median American income, you can buy and fly something. . .
 
Sundancer said:
We can fly - tens of thousands of years gone by, millions of people, like us, gone to dust, and kings, emperors, and Da Vincis, too; what would they have thought affordable?

You can get a long-legged, high-speed, continent-crosser like a LongEZ, for less than the price of a SUV - or a low end Cessna, Piper, or Grumman trainer, priced cheaper than a compact car.

Or buy into a plastic partnership for some amount in between. If you fall anywhere within one or two standard deviations from the median American income, you can buy and fly something. . .
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This guy gets it.

I would happily own a $15k champ if that is all I could afford. Maybe it wouldn’t haul the whole family and maybe it wouldn’t be the fastest plane in the world, but it’d be mine, and I’d be flying. So many more people can afford to own than they realize, and if they’d rather not own than own something basic, so be it.
 
OK you asked for it. How do you upload an excel file to POA? If so, you can enter your own numbers, add/remove/change costs to suit yourself.
Attached pdf
 

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bflynn said:
Here's my numbers for a M20J at 80k - some estimates in here, but I _think_ they're reasonable.

Finance 72k on a 15 year loan at 6% = $481.13/month
Insurance $267
Tie down $45/month (KHRJ, actual cost).

12 GPH * $3.99 = 47.88/hr for gas
$10 oil every 15 hours
$22/hour for an engine kitty
$15/hour for future maintenance kitty

Total is 1306-1391 per month or about 16k per year.

Note, you could lower this - bigger down payment, newer engine, newer airplane, etc. A 40k down payment and 0 time engine drops it to 1025/month or about 12k/year. That's about a 10 year payback on the down payment
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Thanks you for posting this. I too found this very helpful.
 
Has to do with priorities and responsibilities.

Responsibilities are most important. If you have a family, or anyone who is depending on you, you should see to their needs first. If you do have a family and the wife and kids, Mother or Father or whoever you are responsible for are taken care of and you have additional and sufficient funds on hand, THEN the priorities come into the decision. You must prioritize what you want to do with the disposable income. If you have enough saved up to buy an airplane with enough remaining cash on hand for an emergency repair such as the event of the engine going belly up AND you have enough room in cash flow for the periodical expenses of hangar, fuel, insurance and so forth, THEN you are in a position to own an airplane.

When my kids were growing up, as bad as I wanted an airplane I was not in a position to buy one due to my responsibilities. Once they were out of college and once I was debt free, then I felt comfortable dipping into savings for such an endeavor.

IMHO if one has a family, they come first.
 
when your diet consists of Ramen noodles.....ice tea unsweetened....you drive a +12 year old car.....and you have a few bucks left over at the end of the month.....you should be good to go to own.
 
shinysideup said:
I was speaking more generally rather than in a (my) particular case, but for the sake of argument lets assume I'm considering a $80-100K airplane (M20J or similar). How much cash would you want to keep aside, and how much would you budget to operate it? I figured operating costs at around $20K/yr in my area (GTA) assuming 75 hours a year.
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We've owned the 201 for ten years now, and hangar, insurance, annual, and repairs has consistently run ~$12k/yr. This is before the prop turns, and does not include original purchase cost or loan payments. To that $12k, add your loan payments if you're not paying cash, and your gas/oil for flying. Fly 100hrs/yr @ 10gph? Add $5k for gas, add some oil, and a reasonable budget is $20k/yr ABOVE any acquisition cost.

That said, be prepared to possibly spend more the 1st year or two as you and your mechanic rectify issues the DPO may have deferred. Old wise pilots say to reserve 10% of the original purchase cost for fixes during these first two years. I hope this doesn't look to harsh. If you look at this and say, "Eh, we'll be ok," then go for it! If this gives you that pit in the stomach feeling, you're not ready for something like a 201. As others have said, I could be perfectly happy flying a 152 or Champ if that's all the budget would allow.
 
bflynn said:
Here's my numbers for a M20J at 80k - some estimates in here, but I _think_ they're reasonable.
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Thank you for sharing that, very helpful.

Sundancer said:
We can fly - tens of thousands of years gone by, millions of people, like us, gone to dust, and kings, emperors, and Da Vincis, too; what would they have thought affordable?
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That's a very good point, I suppose it's all a matter of perspective and how much you are willing to spend.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We've owned the 201 for ten years now, and hangar, insurance, annual, and repairs has consistently run ~$12k/yr. This is before the prop turns, and does not include original purchase cost or loan payments. To that $12k, add your loan payments if you're not paying cash, and your gas/oil for flying. Fly 100hrs/yr @ 10gph? Add $5k for gas, add some oil, and a reasonable budget is $20k/yr ABOVE any acquisition cost.
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That sounds in line with my estimates, thanks for sharing.
 
brian] said:
Might as well ask: What is the meaning of life....

Imagine yourself dead - did you do everything you imagined.
Imagine yourself old - do you have enough money to eat.
Land somewhere in-between...
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I am firmly in the camp that votes for the fast airplane and cat food combo; KD for a treat on Sundays.
 
I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Once I assiduously totally everything I'd spent on flying and aviation for the year. I was very careful to include everything, and checked my figures twice. I then firmly decided that I would never again undertake such an exercise.
 
Sundancer said:
We can fly - tens of thousands of years gone by, millions of people, like us, gone to dust, and kings, emperors, and Da Vincis, too; what would they have thought affordable?

You can get a long-legged, high-speed, continent-crosser like a LongEZ, for less than the price of a SUV - or a low end Cessna, Piper, or Grumman trainer, priced cheaper than a compact car.

Or buy into a plastic partnership for some amount in between. If you fall anywhere within one or two standard deviations from the median American income, you can buy and fly something. . .
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That was my benchmark when people used to tell me I was extravagant or "rich" after I bought my first airplane, a 1961 Cherokee 160. I paid less than the price of good used Toyota sedan for it. It was mechanically sound but had gawd awful paint and a ratty faded orange cloth interior, none of which I could afford to fix, but it was mine. And I flew it thousands of miles and hundreds of hours and never had to "book it" around other people's training schedule. I was so proud of that thing that I eventually installed a used KT76A transponder, a new King digital radio and a PS Engineering audio panel so I could listen to my Walkman through the headset (yes, that long ago :( ).
 
mondtster said:
Aviation is the only industry where I've seen people try to rationalize purchases and account for every dime they spent. I have yet to run into a boat owner or classic car restorer/hot rodder that ever really thinks about the cost. They just buy what they want. Ironically, many boat and car guys don't seem to be nearly as well off as the average airplane guy, yet they manage to figure out how to make their finances work.
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This is really true. I wonder why us pilots analyze every penny where other enthusiasts could care less. I hate looking at per hour costs to fly - it makes every hour a little less enjoyable. I couldn’t tell you what I spend, down to the penny and on an hourly basis, in any other aspect of my life, so why do I care so much what this minute of flight time ran?
 
skiermike said:
This is really true. I wonder why us pilots analyze every penny where other enthusiasts could care less. I hate looking at per hour costs to fly - it makes every hour a little less enjoyable. I couldn’t tell you what I spend, down to the penny and on an hourly basis, in any other aspect of my life, so why do I care so much what this minute of flight time ran?
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This pretty much sums up the internal struggle for me. Renting zaps the fun for me since i'm doing mental calculations of how much a given flight period will cost. Once I get over that obstacle, I will be making the plunge into ownership and just enjoy the ups and downs as best I can (like enthusiasts of virtually every other hobby/sport in the world).
 
JOhnH said:
Nah, none of those.
It's when your wife says you can.
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Bingo!

In my case, my wife even paid for the plane. She was let go from her job in late 2011 (just a few days before Christmas—her boss was a real jerk), but, because of her time in service, she was given a full year’s salary as severence. She had a job offer before New Years Day, so there was really just a slight blip in our income, and we had that pile of cash around... Hmmm, “Honey,” sez I, “you know that time we wanted to fly to Tahoe but couldn’t because someone else had the club’s 182 already reserved? If we had our own plane, that wouldn’t have been an issue. And since our boy plays hockey, we’re gonna have lots of trips to Phoenix, Southern California, and Vancouver coming up. Sure would be nice not to have to fight the airlines, right?” sez I.

After looking at some beautiful-but-with-problems Cessna 185s, we bought a beautiful, 1989 Bellanca Super Viking in May of 2012 with the majority of the payment coming from my wife’s severance pay. And, yes, we have taken it to Tahoe, Vancouver a couple of times, Phoenix several times, and numerous trips down South to the LA area. Beat the airliners door-to-door on many of those trips. No TSA, no baggage claim headaches, and no long bus rides to the rental car pickup; the FBOs usually bring the rental car to the plane.

And, when she wants to go to Monterey for the day, it’s a 20 minute flight versus an hour and a half slog through traffic. Taking her to Death Valley to see the super bloom is a 2 hour flight instead of an 8 to 9 hour road trip. I got a cool plane, and she gets a cool way to travel. Worth it.


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skiermike said:
This is really true. I wonder why us pilots analyze every penny where other enthusiasts could care less. I hate looking at per hour costs to fly - it makes every hour a little less enjoyable. I couldn’t tell you what I spend, down to the penny and on an hourly basis, in any other aspect of my life, so why do I care so much what this minute of flight time ran?
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Wow. I don't know a single airplane owner that actually looks at what it costs unless someone asks them - and even then I am not sure most of them could answer that question accurately. I keep a separate bank account that I run all my aviation expenses through, but rarely total it to find out what it is costing me. The last time I did that was after 39 months of ownership of the Aztec and in response to another PoAer's request for some actual twin operating cost data.
 
I finished my flight review last week and the instructor asked if I wanted a receipt. I said, "Yes. I keep the receipts but I never total them." He laughed. But it's true. I haven't ever.
 
Suze Orman would probably find 10 reasons why you can't afford one.
But if you want it badly enough and it doesn't adversely impact lives of your dependents - you can afford it.
 
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jimhorner said:
And since our boy plays hockey, we’re gonna have lots of trips to Phoenix, Southern California, and Vancouver coming up.
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Your boy must not be a goalie, because there's no way goalie gear fits in a Viking :)
 
shinysideup said:
I know this is kind of a loaded question that can be answered in a thousand different ways, but what rule of thumb would you go by for being able to afford sole ownership of say a light piston single?

When you can afford to buy outright?
When you can afford to overhaul without taking a loan?
When you can own the plane and keep the lights on most days of the week?
Click to expand...

When you have enough money that you can afford it without making sacrifices you can't afford to make :dunno:

Also depends on piston single

Big difference between a 7AC champ and a 185.

I'd say most folks who can afford to have a new snowmobile, ski boat, jet ski, ATV, could probably swing a 7AC or C120 or something.

You start talking SR22, 185, PA18, DHC2, you're talking a little diffrent ball of wax.
 
bradg33 said:
Your boy must not be a goalie, because there's no way goalie gear fits in a Viking :)
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That’s true! He’s a forward. The Viking has a ski tube extending back from the baggage compartment which is perfect for holding hockey sticks. A couple of small suitcases, a couple of backpacks, and a hockey bag _just_ fit into the baggage compartment. It takes some pushing and shoving to get it all in, however.

I miss those trips. When he first started playing, his out of the area games were primarily in LA, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and a couple of times in Vancouver, all reachable in the Viking. As he got better and older, most of his games started being back East (Boston, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, etc.), and flying ourselves just wasn’t practical. And, for his games in LA, the coach insisted that the team travel together by bus from the Bay Area. At least for those, my wife and I could still fly down to LA to watch him. Definitely would beat the team down there every time.

Now he’s doing a gap year playing Junior hockey in New England, and we don’t get to see him play at all except on the fairly poor streaming service. Not quite the same thing.

It sure was fun while it lasted.


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IMO

Life isn't worth living if you can't do the things you really want to do. Come up with a budget including costs of ownership, (Most people don't). Give up things if necessary, Cable sucks anyway..lol
 
olasek said:
Suze Orman would probably find 10 reasons why you can't afford one.
But if you want it badly enough and it doesn't adversely impact lives of your dependents - you can afford it.
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Suze Orman gives bad financial advice in my opinion. Not ALL debt is bad but can provide leverage for further investments only if you know what you are doing.
 
My small example. My PA-28 costs me about 20k to own an operate for around 125 hours/year. Note that this is higher than most, because my hangar is $550/month. And also because this plane is new to me (2 years) and I've been having expensive annuals due to some back maintenance that was neglected by previous owners.
 
George Mohr said:
My small example. My PA-28 costs me about 20k to own an operate for around 125 hours/year. Note that this is higher than most, because my hangar is $550/month. And also because this plane is new to me (2 years) and I've been having expensive annuals due to some back maintenance that was neglected by previous owners.
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My Mooney is about 17k, not including upgrades, 180-190 hours/year. My first year was expensive (old adage that you should have 10% or more in cash for 1st year maintenance was spot on), after that it stabilized.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Suze Orman gives bad financial advice in my opinion. Not ALL debt is bad but can provide leverage for further investments only if you know what you are doing.
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The people who watch her are the same people who would be broke a year after hitting the Powerball.
 
buy a plane.

buy 100LL.

fly

Don't add up $$
Repeat
 
FloridaPilot said:
?..Give up things if necessary, Cable sucks anyway..lol
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I don't own a television. Who needs "reality" TV when you own a plane. ;)
Doing the logs is a documentary special.
Sourcing airframe parts is like your own personal History Channel.
Taking it to the mechanic with a snag is playing Let's Make a Deal.
Upgrading anything, paint, interior, panel, is the aviation version of HGTV...without the capital gain potential.
And the monthly credit card bill for gas for the Aztec is a recurring nightmare horror movie. :eek:
 
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