Roy Halladay's Icon A5 down off of Tampa Coast

Bill Jennings said:
My take is although these features do increase safety, I also think they give pilots a false sense of security and maybe they try things they otherwise wouldn't try.
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That's a popular school of thought and one I'm on the fence about. But I also think someone with that mentality will probably do something reckless sooner or later either way.
 
SkyDog58 said:
That's a popular school of thought and one I'm on the fence about. But I also think someone with that mentality will probably do something reckless sooner or later either way.
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In this case I think it's true, look at Icon's marketing points, copied directly from their web site:

  • Peace of Mind at 1,000 Feet
  • Angle of Attack Gauge (AoA)
    Small gauge. Big difference. This single gauge tells you everything you need to know. Any speed. Any load. Any maneuver.

  • Spin-Resistant Airframe (SRA)
    Always under control. After thousands of hours of testing and development, the A5 is the world’s first spin-resistant Light Sport Aircraft
  • Complete Aircraft Parachute (CAP)
    Safe and Sound. CAP technology has more than 300 documented lives saved, some at altitudes as low as a few hundred feet. So if you encounter the unexpected, we’ve got you covered. Literally.
 
Bill Jennings said:
My take is although these features do increase safety, I also think they give pilots a false sense of security and maybe they try things they otherwise wouldn't try.
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Can't allow falseness in the cockpit. Safe pilots always have to know what they really have in both equipment and skill and how to effectively use both.
 
TRocket said:
That was my exact thought, everyone managed to get their phones out though. Seems to me like now days whenever there is some sort of disaster, a lot of people are more concerned with recording it on their phone than trying to help.
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There are jumps in continuity indicating that it's been edited. Also some of the bystanders mention seeing the pillot "over there". My guess is TMZ edited out Roy's body anytime it appeared on camera.
 
Bill Jennings said:
In this case I think it's true, look at Icon's marketing points, copied directly from their web site:

  • Peace of Mind at 1,000 Feet
  • Angle of Attack Gauge (AoA)
    Small gauge. Big difference. This single gauge tells you everything you need to know. Any speed. Any load. Any maneuver.

  • Spin-Resistant Airframe (SRA)
    Always under control. After thousands of hours of testing and development, the A5 is the world’s first spin-resistant Light Sport Aircraft
  • Complete Aircraft Parachute (CAP)
    Safe and Sound. CAP technology has more than 300 documented lives saved, some at altitudes as low as a few hundred feet. So if you encounter the unexpected, we’ve got you covered. Literally.
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So, if you exceed the critical AOA even with an AOA gauge and the plane stalls, it will resist spinning but if it does spin, you have the chute. Cool!!! Yank and bank time!!!!

:D
 
Does that AOA have audio alerts?
My pet peeve is AOA without audio are nearly useless and just toys.
 
SkyDog58 said:
So, if you exceed the critical AOA even with an AOA gauge and the plane stalls, it will resist spinning but if it does spin, you have the chute. Cool!!! Yank and bank time!!!!

:D
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It's not necessarily THAT one yanks and banks but HOW and WHERE one yanks and banks that affects safe outcomes.
 
This is the problem with the marketing of the aircraft. Former fighter pilots teaching newbies to yank and bank at low altitudes. So much added risk with this type of flying. You can bet more accidents to come.

 
wayne said:
Absolutely. The conditions mean a lot. Flying low over a lake with some wind to help see your height above the surface on a bright clear day is complete different from hazy and no wind with a glass like surface on the water...
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I can say that when I got my seaplane rating there wasn’t that much about the flying aspect, it was mostly about nautical rules, some “sailing” and taxiing techniques but by and far mostly about glassy water operations. Both the instructor and the examiner wanted to be sure we understood what that was all about.
 
Bill Jennings said:
...Peace of Mind at 1,000 Feet
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If all their demo flying was at 1000 ft, accidents like this would be much less likely. There's no way that low time pilots should be doing these things. This culture will probably kill this company, and its a damn shame. I brought a friend to OSH this year who is thinking about getting into GA, and this was his favorite airplane at the show.

I also dont buy the idea that a spin resistant airplane makes less safe pilots. This is a damn fine sport airplane, with a really reckless brochure.


(10:00 or so)
 
Damn. Just damn...

Video, witnesses indicate Halladay showboated prior to fatal crash going from 100 feet above to about five feet.

One witness told TMZ Sports that Halladay was “dramatically increasing and decreasing in elevation.”
“He was flying like that all week. Aggressively,” another witness said. Halladay’s flying pattern was apparently so unusual that some pulled out their phones to take video of it.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb...-fatal-crash/ar-BBEJOia?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
 
Half Fast said:
You have to take the whole picture in, though, including their marketing.

Icon is like a handgun manufacturer that produces a well-designed, well-made handgun with modern safety features, then sells it with advertising that touts the thrill of playing Russian roulette.
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Yeah I agree. I would say that is a pretty good analogy.
 
FlyingElvii said:
One witness told TMZ Sports that Halladay was “dramatically increasing and decreasing in elevation.”
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I watched the video and didn't see anything particularly damning. If he returned to the opposite heading with a small offset, it would be a fairly routine cropdusting turn. Of course, it's a fact that he's dead, but it's not necessarily related to the type of maneuver he was performing on the video.

I would be doing exactly the same thing. It's one thing to go low when straight and level, but it's another thing to make a turn. You want to a greater margin in case you become uncoordinated and/or do not pull back enough (both of which cause a sink). You also want a greater margin in case you become slow. Finally, in most airplanes you have some kinetic energy that you can use to zoom a little bit. It slows you down and allows a smaller turn radius.

What I would probably not be doing is maneuvering with the onlookers being outside of the turn. If anything goes wrong and I have go wings level quickly, I'm going to continue to the outside of the intended turn and perhaps even land into them, which is going to be a major hit against my liability insurance! That is a minor point, however.
 
zaitcev said:
... it would be a fairly routine cropdusting turn...
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Ok, but cropdusting is a profession, and populated mostly by high time and very competent folks. This thing is being sold to newly minted sport pilots.
 
More now-deleted marketing references to exhilaration, apex powersports, and jet skis from the company website, saved in google's cache. Their bolding, not mine.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tion_April_2010.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

…the A5 was designed to compete in the world of powersports,
the apex product in the realm of ATVs, motorcycles, watercraft,
snowmobiles, and the like.

"Kirk explained that ICON’s goal was to
create a product that delivered the pure joy
and exhilaration of flying, an experience
that had been lost as airplanes became utili-
tarian tools. So rather than compete with
other aircraft, the A5 was designed to com-
pete in the world of powersports, to be the
apex product in the realm of ATVs, motor-
cycles, watercraft, snowmobiles, and the
like. Utility be damned.
As Steen Strand, the company’s co-
founder and chief operating officer puts it,
“No one goes to buy a jet ski and says, ‘I
want to buy a jet ski, and I need it to get
over to there.’ They get a jet ski because
they want to have fun.”"
 
dans2992 said:
It always amazes me when GA “startups” find someone to invest/fund their venture.

How many have been successful? How many have failed? How can investors find those odds to be in their favor?
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Very similar to motorcycles. I've seen any number of really cool looking new bikes over the years but the companies were new and just didn't have the cash to make it through early life failures and slow sales. Enter BRP and Polaris and we have some really interesting 3 wheelers that the companies can afford to lose money on for a few years until sales take off.
 
I dunno... did anyone train on flying in ground effect with the warning horn clicking on/off to perfect cross wind landings?

What's the difference between ground effect and water effect?

@James331 will speak on this I'm sure.

The pilot got in over his head. (accidental pun) Marketing didn't cause it, any more than marketing the top speed and 0-60 time on a Corvette causes accidents.
 
N659HB said:
Based on the videos there was no glassy water conditions present.
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Doesn't matter. Diving down towards water, even with waves/ripples present, is still difficult to judge altitude. Water is just like the desert. Even with a RADALT, I've almost plowed in and so have many of my friends. Crop dusting is no comparison.
 
Velocity173 said:
Doesn't matter. Diving down towards water, even with waves/ripples present, is still difficult to judge altitude. Water is just like the desert. Even with a RADALT, I've almost plowed in and so have many of my friends. Crop dusting is no comparison.
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Just ruling out some of the speculation. I have no experience with seaplanes, and so no dog in this fight, but low-altitude maneuvering is dangerous whether above water or terra firma, IMHO.
 
Velocity173 said:
This is the problem with the marketing of the aircraft. Former fighter pilots teaching newbies to yank and bank at low altitudes. So much added risk with this type of flying. You can bet more accidents to come.

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If this video is indicative of what they are doing during their factory training I think they may have some problems in civil court.
 
Ravioli said:
I dunno... did anyone train on flying in ground effect with the warning horn clicking on/off to perfect cross wind landings?

What's the difference between ground effect and water effect?

@James331 will speak on this I'm sure.

The pilot got in over his head. (accidental pun) Marketing didn't cause it, any more than marketing the top speed and 0-60 time on a Corvette causes accidents.
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Yes and no. Marketing definitely influences behavior however I do agree that the final responsibility for behavior rests on the individual.
 
Nobody is saying that the responsibility is anywhere but the pilot. The consequences however, will probably fall on the company, and not without reason.
 
Ravioli said:
I dunno... did anyone train on flying in ground effect with the warning horn clicking on/off to perfect cross wind landings?

What's the difference between ground effect and water effect?

@James331 will speak on this I'm sure.

The pilot got in over his head. (accidental pun) Marketing didn't cause it, any more than marketing the top speed and 0-60 time on a Corvette causes accidents.
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Usually much easier to drown in water effect. Aerodynamically speaking, ground effect is more complex.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Usually much easier to drown in water effect. Aerodynamically speaking, ground effect is more complex.
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Please to explain, being a CFII and all... the differences between ground effect and water surface effect.

Your post could be interpreted to mean that there is more/less ground effect on land then then a fluid surface, but you stated in a very off hand manner.
 
So, would it be more likely that he drowned or that he died on impact? I hope the latter? Watching that video (although may have been edited) was frustrating. Not one person jumped in to see if he could be saved....
 
Sparky99 said:
Not one person jumped in to see if he could be saved....
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Who would hold the phone?

But you're right. All they did was sit around and curse. The best audio was the jag that told the other non-helpful boater to "take er easy"

Hello?
 
Imagine a steep turn with very little margin for loss of altitude, add a split second of inattention or a blip of turbulence, dip a wing into water, it's over. Imagine trying that on the salt flats with your ASEL...no difference.
 
Sparky99 said:
So, would it be more likely that he drowned or that he died on impact? I hope the latter? Watching that video (although may have been edited) was frustrating. Not one person jumped in to see if he could be saved....
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Too busy doing video for twitter
 
Ravioli said:
Please to explain, being a CFII and all... the differences between ground effect and water surface effect.

Your post could be interpreted to mean that there is more/less ground effect on land then then a fluid surface, but you stated in a very off hand manner.
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Well, by its nature, water is usually pretty darn flat without the close proximity of ditches, hills, undulations, and obstructions that cause changes in air currents and lift while near the ground, in the vicinity of a runway, on a breezy day...
 
Velocity173 said:
This is the problem with the marketing of the aircraft. Former fighter pilots teaching newbies to yank and bank at low altitudes. So much added risk with this type of flying. You can bet more accidents to come.

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Flying as this video shows has zero appeal to me, just looks stupid, I must be getting old.
 
I saw the video taken from the boat. They roll up on a crashed airplane, and not one of them jumped in to look for survivors. Too busy with the phones.

The A5 is hard to stall or spin and from the video it's impossible to tell what happened.
 
JonH said:
I saw the video taken from the boat. They roll up on a crashed airplane, and not one of them jumped in to look for survivors. Too busy with the phones.

The A5 is hard to stall or spin...
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But it’s not hard to unitentionally induce a handfull of sink when performing agressive maneuvers in close vicinity to 0’ AGL.
 
JonH said:
I saw the video taken from the boat. They roll up on a crashed airplane, and not one of them jumped in to look for survivors. Too busy with the phones.
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I see San Diego as your location so maybe you've done this: have you ever deliberately gone overboard from a boat into the open ocean? Assuming a non-dive, non-swimming deck boat here.

I've done MOB drills on offshore vessels. It's way too easy to get someone hurt on recovery or flat out lose someone in open water. If you've got a tender or a RIB it's a little different story. Recovery and boarding still suck.

Anyway I find it hard to fault someone for not jumping out of a boat.
 
Anyway I find it hard to fault someone for not jumping out of a boat.
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I know, I would be scared as h*ll to jump in. Just hard to watch the spectating and hear the “bro” talk while they troll around the wreckage. Not even any conversation about if someone should?! I hope it happened & was edited out.
 
Velocity173 said:
This is the problem with the marketing of the aircraft. Former fighter pilots teaching newbies to yank and bank at low altitudes. So much added risk with this type of flying. You can bet more accidents to come.

Click to expand...

Wow. That made me nervous. "stay low"....really? If they continue down this road I agree more accidents coming
 
Velocity173 said:
This is the problem with the marketing of the aircraft. Former fighter pilots teaching newbies to yank and bank at low altitudes. So much added risk with this type of flying. You can bet more accidents to come.

Click to expand...

What in the proverbial frack

Marketing a demo flight like that, I'm a pretty laid back guy who likes low level stuff, but with how they are pitching this, ESPECIALLY with their demographic, I really don't have words after that.

I just hope a cool airframe doesn't suffer for HORRIFIC business and marketing failures, this would be a AWSOME acquisition for Cirrus and everything they have leaned over the years, similar construction too.

But as much as a fan of GA as I am, Icon as a company needs to die, just hope someone can salvage the airframes and deposits.
 
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