One big class action lawsuit coming up:

Unfortunately, I "get" there are times and places to either not be or (if it comes with the job) be packing. To suggest this is normal, well, I hope it isn't normal. If it is, then I need to know what to buy my 80 year old mom.
I bought my 75 yr. old Mom a Sig239 in 9mm. I initially bought her a little Ruger .380 pocket rocket but it was just way too snappy for her. Heck, it was even too snappy for me, so I dumped it and got her the 9mm. She's not a 24/7 carrier like I am, but she does carry concealed on certain occasions. As for me, I've been carrying concealed 24/7 for at least 20 years or more, and it has become as normal as grabbing my keys, cell phone, or even my swiss army knife before I head out the door. It's just another tool you hope you never have to use. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Gotta love all the so-called "experts" trying to establish a motive for this shooting. It's so obvious any first year psych student should be able to figure it out. The shooter by all standards was very successful in life except for one thing. He needed to one-up his father. The second I heard that his father was once on the FBI's 10 most wanted list, I instantly knew his motive. He wanted (if he'd have carried out his plan and gotten away) to be the FBI's number #1 most wanted man in America. :yesnod:

And when he saw he couldn't get away, he became the ultimate failure.
After that, the choice was easy.
 
As Colonel Potter from the series MASH would say, "Horse Hockey". The likelihood of a cop being near your home when you have an emergency is wishful thinking. You are your own first line of defense until they arrive. If you have to load your gun you are not prepared to defend yourself and your family. An unloaded gun is useless. Stop fooling yourself. If you are concerned about your children getting hurt from you need to educate them. My dad bought me a .22 rifle when I was about twelve and taught me to accept the responsibility of gun ownership.

If I call 911 I have multiple branches of emergency services on my property in under 60 seconds. If you knew where I lived you’d understand why.

But shall we talk about the fact that I said I agree with the choice, I respect the choice, and I would make that same choice under other circumstances, but because I choose not to do it right NOW - I’m the bad guy here?
 
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But shall we talk about the fact that I said I agree with the choice, I respect the choice, and I would make that same choice under other circumstances, but because I choose not to do it right NOW - I’m the bad guy here?
No you're not the bad guy here. You're just a little misguided and misinformed on the gun culture. No biggie... that's why you educate yourself on those matters. One of my most favorite liberals is Anthony Bourdain. I watch his shows religiously just because I think all the s**t he does is awesome. One of his best shows was when he was in New Mexico and hanging out with a bunch of gunnies shooting and BBQ'ing. I could tell by the big ass grin on his face after he shot an AR15 and several other guns during the day, that his stance on guns was forever changed. Same goes for some of my liberal neighbors. I took them out to the range and out shooting sporting clays, and they had the time of lives. Now they're gun owners. :thumbsup:
 
No real need to talk about it.
Even if you are anti gun, there's nothing wrong with that, except to someone who is pro gun....and vice versa.
It's your business and you have a right to your opinion and beliefs as much as anyone.
well, at least that's my opinion and belief.
(and as long as you agree we'll be just fine) :cornut:
 
Gotta love all the so-called "experts" trying to establish a motive for this shooting. It's so obvious any first year psych student should be able to figure it out. The shooter by all standards was very successful in life except for one thing. He needed to one-up his father. The second I heard that his father was once on the FBI's 10 most wanted list, I instantly knew his motive. He wanted (if he'd have carried out his plan and gotten away) to be the FBI's number #1 most wanted man in America. :yesnod:

For ten seconds as he watched the SWAT team come down the hall on his cameras before he offed himself? I’m not buying it. If he was that sort of narcissist he’d be in custody or shot by the cops.

I never got this one. Don't get me wrong, I have guns if needed. But having one loaded an at the ready- well, not for everyone. Most victims know the person. But to imply everyone must be armed and ready? Well, I hope that is not the society we are trying to create.

Not really relevant what we “create”. Cops are great for filling out the paperwork and asking you what the suspect looked like after you’ve been attacked, if you survived it. Even in the most “civilized” societies.

And as many have pointed out, not everyone has the luxury of 60 second away cops. Best case for me is half an hour. If it bothers someone that I’m answering the door armed during the day, and probably not answering but leveling a firearm at whoever’s outside through the door or drywall or whatever at night... that’s their problem. There’s 850’ of gravel driveway you probably shouldn’t have come down in the first place unless you have a REALLY good reason to be here.

I think I’ve shared the story of the idiot FedEx driver who not only came down that driveway (fine), but opened a pasture gate (not fine), climbed a flight of stairs to a second story deck (way not fine), opened the house door at the top of the deck (incredibly dangerous and dumb out here) and walked into my living room without saying a word (nearly suicidal out here, with people’s dogs and arms), and came face to face with me who had moved to cut him off from his path toward the other room where my wife hadn’t noticed him even drive up... he was literally a draw stroke away from staring at a pistol at point blank range.

I told him to back out of my door slowly to the deck and tell me what he wanted and that he should not have come inside. He set a box down literally on my living room floor and backed out. I smiled and asked him (with my hand still on the butt of my pistol in a pocket) if he needed a signature and then explained that walking in open doors in the Country was probably a really bad idea. The lightbulb came on for him. Hopefully a learning experience.

Whether he knew I was armed or not, I don’t know and don’t care. But yeah... I was. And a revolver can be fired from a pocket... an advantage it has over a self-loader.

(We always called “semi-autos” self-loaders back in the day. It seems that’s a purposeful change to get self-loaders associated with “evil” automatics... semi-auto is accurate, but I never really liked that term. It’s just a gun that will load a new round from a magazine when fired. Nothing particularly special about it. Oh, and if you can’t “bump fire” with nothing but a shoulder and a finger, you haven’t shot anything much. I could unload a pistol or a rifle about as fast as it would fire, and “somewhat” accurately. Silly “bump fire” device, not required. Can teach someone else how to do it in about three minutes as long as we have a REALLY tall backstop for their inevitable mistake of letting the muzzle keep rising with recoil.)
 
@brian] has a good point. Ford pickups and pressure cookers have a legitimate use/purpose. Bump stocks, not so much. Even the NRA is on board with outlawing them. Regardless of the accuracy issue, it did enable this psycho to shoot more bullets randomly into the crowd. He killed close to 60 people and injured close to 500. Those numbers are staggering. Things that are designed to do massive damage should be outlawed. Such is the case with bombs, hand grenades, and other such implements of destruction. Outlawing bump stocks is certainly in line with these other restrictions.
They have a use -- letting people with the desire to send a lot of lead downrange the ability to do so quickly. It does not make the firearm an automatic by law, it just enables a shooter to actuate the trigger on a semiautomatic faster. That doesn't mean it was "designed to do massive damage."

They're silly and nothing but a toy, but to say they don't have a use is a bit dishonest. They don't have a use for most people, but they do for some.
 
Texting and driving will kill more people this year than all the bump stocks and pressure cooker bombs combined.
Handguns in general will kill more people than bumpstocks or pressure cooker bombs.
One is illegal, the other is not.
Doesn't seem to matter. Still gonna happen.
 
Texting and driving will kill more people this year than all the bump stocks and pressure cooker bombs combined.
Handguns in general will kill more people than bumpstocks or pressure cooker bombs.
One is illegal, the other is not.
Doesn't seem to matter. Still gonna happen.

Politicians can’t make any hay and tell lies nobody will call them on, with those other things.

Jerry Miculek has a nice video showing real world fire speeds by himself (a world record speed holder, not too many humans can shoot as fast as he can, and he does it for a living) vs some previous politician BS statements back in 2015 or 2016. Same old statements being trotted back out this time.

I’m not even going to link it. The clueless believers of a certain political cult, won’t watch it anyway. They never do. They couldn’t fire the silly thing without a bump stock, half as fast as Jerry does without a bump stock. But they’re “experts” on speed shooting now, of course.
 
bump stocks...meh...im fine ether way on legality.

But I do wish these whack jobs that want to basically kill themselves and take a bunch of people with them would start using something other than guns and 'assault rifles'. Just go rent a damn box truck, throw a couple pallets of cement bags in the back and start driving thru crowds or something. then we can all scream to outlaw trucks and cement bags.

Or you could stand in a crowd in Puerto Rico and lob cans of chicken at people.
 
Radar detectors were built with pretty much one intent and one intent only. To help circumvent restrictions of speed on public highways.

Not quite.

A radar detector allows one to drive at typical speeds on public highways with a somewhat reduced likelihood of receiving a citation; not so useful as once they were, as laser speed measurement has become more common.

Interestingly, when speed limits are set to appropriate speeds, rather than the artificially-low speeds promoted by misguided control freaks, speeding s not much of a problem... but it also is less of a revenue source.

I haven't used my radar detector in a couple of years. Credit Beechcraft for that.
 
For ten seconds as he watched the SWAT team come down the hall on his cameras before he offed himself? I’m not buying it. If he was that sort of narcissist he’d be in custody or shot by the cops.



Not really relevant what we “create”. Cops are great for filling out the paperwork and asking you what the suspect looked like after you’ve been attacked, if you survived it. Even in the most “civilized” societies.

And as many have pointed out, not everyone has the luxury of 60 second away cops. Best case for me is half an hour. If it bothers someone that I’m answering the door armed during the day, and probably not answering but leveling a firearm at whoever’s outside through the door or drywall or whatever at night... that’s their problem. There’s 850’ of gravel driveway you probably shouldn’t have come down in the first place unless you have a REALLY good reason to be here.

I think I’ve shared the story of the idiot FedEx driver who not only came down that driveway (fine), but opened a pasture gate (not fine), climbed a flight of stairs to a second story deck (way not fine), opened the house door at the top of the deck (incredibly dangerous and dumb out here) and walked into my living room without saying a word (nearly suicidal out here, with people’s dogs and arms), and came face to face with me who had moved to cut him off from his path toward the other room where my wife hadn’t noticed him even drive up... he was literally a draw stroke away from staring at a pistol at point blank range.

I told him to back out of my door slowly to the deck and tell me what he wanted and that he should not have come inside. He set a box down literally on my living room floor and backed out. I smiled and asked him (with my hand still on the butt of my pistol in a pocket) if he needed a signature and then explained that walking in open doors in the Country was probably a really bad idea. The lightbulb came on for him. Hopefully a learning experience.

Whether he knew I was armed or not, I don’t know and don’t care. But yeah... I was. And a revolver can be fired from a pocket... an advantage it has over a self-loader.

(We always called “semi-autos” self-loaders back in the day. It seems that’s a purposeful change to get self-loaders associated with “evil” automatics... semi-auto is accurate, but I never really liked that term. It’s just a gun that will load a new round from a magazine when fired. Nothing particularly special about it. Oh, and if you can’t “bump fire” with nothing but a shoulder and a finger, you haven’t shot anything much. I could unload a pistol or a rifle about as fast as it would fire, and “somewhat” accurately. Silly “bump fire” device, not required. Can teach someone else how to do it in about three minutes as long as we have a REALLY tall backstop for their inevitable mistake of letting the muzzle keep rising with recoil.)


Well, you nearly described my property. Similar scenario- with guns available- my wife's turbocharged two seater was stole from our detached garage while we slept. That will get your attention.

What I reject is the implication that everyone must have a gun or carry in today's society. If you like them- go for it. Either way- get a security system with video too. I'm my experience - it works a lot better than a gun. (Several long stories there.)

I'll leave out the thought process I went through on what it would take to secure the house as I would in the army- not possible as I can't get two claymore mines or the M60 (my favorite weapon of all time). But with an active death threat on my wife once- well, it won't take me long to ready the place next time.

What we gun owners need to figure out pronto is how to keep excitement about guns out of the hands of personalities like the young men my wife puts in jail. (Not to mention the bozo in Vega.) Several times a year she has a girlfriend/ wife / family member dead because the gun guy gets "wronged" and - well, happens more than you think.

I used to fear the mixture of poverty and guns. I grew up poor and lived in places near people that made you want to have a gun. Thought I was safe now that I'm hanging out with you rich guys. Well- I got my eye on you (wink wink).

Like most thing in aviation, having a gun is a choice and needing a gun is in my opinion harder to justify.

(Say- did I just get this thread closed?)
 
having a gun is a choice and needing a gun is in my opinion harder to justify.
I'm just curious what you mean by justify? What is your criteria for needing a firearm?
 
Sleeping one night, got woke up about 2am by the front door shutting.
I got up looked around, went outside... no evidence of anything. One of our older kids had been running in and out earlier. Figured they had make one last trip for whatever reason, as the door was unlocked. So I locked it and went back to bed.
The next morning we discovered that a purse was missing.
I immediately got online and checked, and sure enough, credit card charges in odd areas.
Cancelled them, called the police. They said the lady across the street reported the same thing.
After about six months of investigation, we found the guy by using a cell phone IMEI number. (which AT&T swore was impossible, I insisted and the detective backed me up and got the cellphone records) He was still using the cellphone he stole from the purse.
He had a criminal record a mile long. Came right into our house and walked right out. I guess the kids left the door unlocked.
I keep a loaded gun right next to the bed.

PS...
That scoundrel was from Texas!
James (forget the last name)
He was 31 years old at that time.

@James331 ??
nah... couldn't be....his location isn't in Texas.... he's behind you!
 
Looks like we won't agree on this one. Then again, I see this as a hack to get around a law and a poor one at that. Clever - it isn't. A ford pickup at least started as a useful product. I normally don't pick winers and losers, but at some point you gotta wonder "why"?

I agree it is a hack to get around a law and it does it well. A bump stock clearly does not violate the law.

As to why...I suspect the same reason certain gun ranges in NV do a good business with selling sessions to shoot full automatic weapons. People want to experience it. Some want to have another tool in their arsenal (lilterally) if we reach a time when laws aren't a primary concern anymore. That's not for me to judge, I will disagree with them at the same time I'll respect them.
 
I'm just curious what you mean by justify? What is your criteria for needing a firearm?

Getting down to single words- not sure I can do that. Maybe some rough examples:
- I've been the farmer in the field (ok, I just worked for the farmer). Excluding the rattle snakes, your a sitting duck
- reoccurring death threats- law enforcement/ officer of the court / etc.


Not sure about the "just the average joe sitting at home".

If you want one- go buy one. Inferring everyone must have one at the ready all the time- meh.
 
They have a use -- letting people with the desire to send a lot of lead downrange the ability to do so quickly. It does not make the firearm an automatic by law, it just enables a shooter to actuate the trigger on a semiautomatic faster. That doesn't mean it was "designed to do massive damage."

They're silly and nothing but a toy, but to say they don't have a use is a bit dishonest. They don't have a use for most people, but they do for some.

Talk about being dishonest. You take the cake. A silly toy. Really?? I can't think of ONE toy, silly or otherwise that I could use to wound 500 people and kill 58 others. Your either being dishonest, or you should reconsider your understanding of the word toy.

You say this "toy" was designed to send a lot of lead downrange quickly, but that it was not designed to do massive damage. What a load of BS. Why send a whole magazine of lead downrange as rapidly as possible if not to do damage? What, do people buy these idiot things to fire into the air, or into a pond? Do they load the gun with blanks? I think not. They are intended to tear things up.

There are only two reasons to buy one, one is to project a lot of destructive force onto harmless targets like TV sets, junk cars, jugs full of liquid, exploding targets, or any other random junk people can dream up, solely for the purpose of entertainment. The other reason is to shoot people as fast as you can solely for the purpose to incapacitate or kill those people. Either way, it is designed to aid you in doing massive damage.

The gun nut bravado in this thread is a little sickening in this thread in light of what has happened.
 
The gun nut bravado in this thread is a little sickening in this thread in light of what has happened.
There you go lump all 2A supporters in with a crazed mad man.

Thankfully we don't need to justify diddly. I don't care if anyone owns a gun or doesn't it is personal choice but don't tell me what I need or don't need. There are sheep and there are sheep dogs. I choose to be the sheep dog when it comes to my family. Call that bravado or whatever you want. I call it personal responsibility.
 
How about we just stop killing each other.

I'm pretty sure that was one of the first bans written into law by human kind. It hasn't worked too well for us, has it? The only way the human animal will cease to murder other human animals is if we evolve to become some other creature. That can only happen through genetic engineering, or mental reprograming, some sort of divine, or other worldly intervention, or maybe a few hundred thousand years more of natural selection. Since none of those things are likely in the near future, the only thing that seems slow us down from murder is just plain getting enough of it. Massive wars with lots of lives lost usually help.
 
The only way the human animal will cease to murder other human animals is if we evolve to become some other creature.
Wouldnt that be a benefit though? Isn't that how species improve?
 
Y'all don't actually think life is fair?

Or believe in the marketing that things like "saftey" "security" can be given to you if you trade your rights or dignity, do you?

Because of you do, maaaaan do I wish we met back in my salesman days, folks that weak minded paid for my flight training.



I will add that a number of years ago I had an attempted home invasion, a few guys tried to break in, after looking at the nice bull barell of my pistol they ran like little *******, I gave a description to police, they found them and they got... trespassing tickets.

Few days later I went to the cop shop to get the police report for my records, the guy sitting next to me had some people try something similar, but he was a weak defenseless type (not to be confused with a man), anyway he looked on as they stole a bunch of stuff from some exterior utility room or something and stuff from his yard, by the time the donut squad arrived they were gone, as was his stuff.

When things go down, YOU are your first and last line of defense, police don't actually stop crime 99% of the time, they just show up later and document it.
 
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Y'all don't actually think life is fair?

Or believe in the marketing that things like "saftey" "security" can be given to you if you trade your rights or dignity, do you?

Because of you do, maaaaan do I wish we met back in my salesman days, folks that weak minded paid for my flight training.

That's a good point. I saw a study a while back that focused on the personality types and some over characteristics that were indicators of voting preference. I won't say here but what you're saying reminded me of the findings. In short, some people want others to be responsible for their safety. They don't sense adequacy in that regard. Part of that is this desire for everyone to play fair and be nice, then we don't need to worry about security and safety.
 
I'm pretty sure that was one of the first bans written into law by human kind. It hasn't worked too well for us, has it? The only way the human animal will cease to murder other human animals is if we evolve to become some other creature. That can only happen through genetic engineering, or mental reprograming, some sort of divine, or other worldly intervention, or maybe a few hundred thousand years more of natural selection. Since none of those things are likely in the near future, the only thing that seems slow us down from murder is just plain getting enough of it. Massive wars with lots of lives lost usually help.

Brainwashing and Manchurian Candidate come to mind.
 
So these are just growing pains, and every species experiences it. In a way, what you are saying is that unfortunately for now, the only way to fix it is to let it keep happening. Unless it happens in a government sanctioned event like war.

We do live in peaceful times in the Western world, especially when we consider the carnage of last century. That has do do something psychologically to a population. If the element of survival is removed from what has historically been a apart of most previous generation's experience, then it seems there will some disruptions and anomalies.
 
Seems most of my gun totin', shoot'em all and let God sort'em out redneck type friends are against the bump stocks. Imagine that.

Just give whirled peas a chance....
 
Getting down to single words- not sure I can do that. Maybe some rough examples:
- I've been the farmer in the field (ok, I just worked for the farmer). Excluding the rattle snakes, your a sitting duck
- reoccurring death threats- law enforcement/ officer of the court / etc.


Not sure about the "just the average joe sitting at home".

If you want one- go buy one. Inferring everyone must have one at the ready all the time- meh.

Just the average joe sitting at home or going out to eat or whatever could at any time be a victim. The Luby's restaurant comes to mind.

I had a friend who was leaving a bar one night, he was attacked and dragged into a car by a couple of men he'd never met, driven out to the country and beaten severely and left for dead.

I had a coworker whose wife was kidnapped by a man and woman who took her to the ATM had her withdraw money, then they killed her and dumped her body off a bridge into a river. She was in her first trimester with their first child.

An elderly woman living alone near my mother's house had someone break in, killed her in her bed and stole stuff.

These things are rare but not that rare. But they're just average joe people. Any of them could have had a chance to not be a victim if they had had a gun at the ready.

No you don't need a gun.... not until the minute you do.
 
Guys, what purpose does banning bump stocks serve when some psycho who wants to shoot a crowd can make one with a board and a piece of pvc?


Not to mention, you can learn to bump fire an unaltered rifle in about 10 minutes anyway, no special stock required.

The proposed ban is just more ineffective security theatre.
 
Guys, what purpose does banning bump stocks serve when some psycho who wants to shoot a crowd can make one with a board and a piece of pvc?


Not to mention, you can learn to bump fire an unaltered rifle in about 10 minutes anyway, no special stock required.

The proposed ban is just more ineffective security theatre.

Incrementalism, they ban this then they say well you can do it with your finger we can't ban fingers so we need to ban...blah blah blah.
 
Just the average joe sitting at home or going out to eat or whatever could at any time be a victim. The Luby's restaurant comes to mind.

I had a friend who was leaving a bar one night, he was attacked and dragged into a car by a couple of men he'd never met, driven out to the country and beaten severely and left for dead.

I had a coworker whose wife was kidnapped by a man and woman who took her to the ATM had her withdraw money, then they killed her and dumped her body off a bridge into a river. She was in her first trimester with their first child.

An elderly woman living alone near my mother's house had someone break in, killed her in her bed and stole stuff.

These things are rare but not that rare. But they're just average joe people. Any of them could have had a chance to not be a victim if they had had a gun at the ready.

No you don't need a gun.... not until the minute you do.
And having a gun handy changes these stories?

There is a school of thought that having a gun provides you attacker with one.
 
Incrementalism, they ban this then they say well you can do it with your finger we can't ban fingers so we need to ban...blah blah blah.
I agree that incrementalism is part of the plan, but incrementalism isn't the strategy itself to limit firearms. Incrementalism is being used as the method by which we are conditioned into believing that firearms are dangerous, unnecessary, de-stabilizing, etc. The goal is to change our attitudes towards firearms, and they do that one small step at a time. On that front, I would say the ant-gunners are making good progress.
 
Could replace "firearm" with "bible" and have an equally worthless question.
I don't really understand your point here. Are you saying we don't need either? Or, that it is worthless discuss our need for either?
 
I agree that incrementalism is part of the plan, but incrementalism isn't the strategy itself to limit firearms. Incrementalism is being used as the method by which we are conditioned into believing that firearms are dangerous, unnecessary, de-stabilizing, etc. The goal is to change our attitudes towards firearms, and they do that one small step at a time. On that front, I would say the ant-gunners are making good progress.
And my left leaning family says that the current attack on reproductive rights is a plot to get women to be more submissive (or something like that).

Ever feel like a pawn ??
 
The goal is to change our attitudes towards firearms, and they do that one small step at a time. On that front, I would say the ant-gunners are making good progress.
Not in my neck of the woods they are! I invite (as do many of my friends) every anti-gunner I meet to either come to the range, or out in the desert with me for a day of shooting and blowing s**t up. The smiles on their faces are priceless! Most often they end up asking me what type of gun they should purchase for home defense, and what training classes they should take to become proficient. I'm getting pretty damn good at converting people. :cool:
 
And my left leaning family says that the current attack on reproductive rights is a plot to get women to be more submissive (or something like that).

Ever feel like a pawn ??
Yes, increasingly so. But that isn't necessarily the case.

A well informed citizenry is the best defense against tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
815751

An informed citizenry is at the heart of a dynamic democracy.

Thomas Jefferson



Also, you might want to inform your family that men lost that battle 50 years ago. The enemy has been thoroughly defeated in the West. Mitch Mconnell isn't a threat. But they may want to rethink their attitudes towards immigration though, if they're really concerned about patriarchy.
 
Not in my neck of the woods they are! I invite (as do many of my friends) every anti-gunner I meet to either come to the range, or out in the desert with me for a day of shooting and blowing s**t up. The smiles on their faces are priceless! Most often they end up asking me what type of gun they should purchase for home defense, and what training classes they should take to become proficient. I'm getting pretty damn good at converting people. :cool:
Good on you! The only ones I encounter are on the interwebs, and I haven't had much luck. None that would be admitted to at least.:eek:
 
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