[Video] Cessna Crash on HWY 69 near Tyler, TX

denverpilot said:
Doesn't matter. Without airspeed they had NO options. You MUST put the nose down even if you're going to hit the top of the trees on the right in the video, to have the energy to make the right turn. There's literally no other way that has a better outcome.

This is an example of energy and speed management. How you got there is immaterial. If you find yourself low and slow you have to push.

That has to be an immediate and instinctive reaction ingrained completely in your brain at low altitude with a loss of thrust. There's no excess horsepower anymore to go up. The only way to maintain control is to go down.

I'd bet dollars to donuts the stall horn is blaring before they arrive in the camera frame.
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Right, I just initially was thinking he was gliding down from a power loss. Now, I'm wondering if they still had power and were just over loaded or maybe had partial power for some reason. In the climb attitude he wouldn't have that nice view of the runway that the dash-cam had. But yea, I agree with you, no matter how you got there, the only option is push.
 
exncsurfer said:
Right, I just initially was thinking he was gliding down from a power loss. Now, I'm wondering if they still had power and were just over loaded or maybe had partial power for some reason. In the climb attitude he wouldn't have that nice view of the runway that the dash-cam had. But yea, I agree with you, no matter how you got there, the only option is push.
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Yeah. What are the numbers W/B numbers on a 1965 C150 with full tanks and 2 average dudes?
 
denverpilot said:
Doesn't matter. Without airspeed they had NO options. You MUST put the nose down even if you're going to hit the top of the trees on the right in the video, to have the energy to make the right turn. There's literally no other way that has a better outcome.

This is an example of energy and speed management. How you got there is immaterial. If you find yourself low and slow you have to push.

That has to be an immediate and instinctive reaction ingrained completely in your brain at low altitude with a loss of thrust. There's no excess horsepower anymore to go up. The only way to maintain control is to go down.

I'd bet dollars to donuts the stall horn is blaring before they arrive in the camera frame.
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Agreed.

But I would add that getting and staying wings level is equally important relative to survival. Wings level, minimum speed is very survivable, even into trees. As soon as dip a wing you introduce the strong possibility of rotation into the ground, nose first.

Lose power down low, concentrate on not stalling and landing/crashing wings level straight ahead. The more energy or height you have the more time you have to think and adjust. But you don't want to contact ANYTHING wing low.


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jbDC9 said:
I don't mean to nitpick at you specifically, but, could we (the royal we, man) stop saying this every time a crash occurs? It appears that pretty much every other day there are posts about crashes or incidents, and invariably someone says "it's been a bad week for GA". But really, that's not the case; what's happening is the 24 hours news cycle and, well, the internet. I'd say that there's no such thing as a "rough couple weeks for GA", it's just that every accident or incident is posted on the news or online across the country, and in many cases accompanied by video. What's the saying, "if it bleeds, it leads"?

If you really want to see a "rough week for GA", go to the NTSB page and look through the accident database; there are accident reports and synopsis starting in January, 1962. Pick a week, any week, from the '60s through the mid-'90s. You might be amazed at the sheer number of accidents that occurred weekly back then.
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Understood...although it's pretty alarming if you go on Kathryn's report and see how many accidents occur daily.
 
In the finest POA tradition of knowing little but guessing a lot. Power on accelerated stall while turning to avoid tall trees. There was no attempt to turn for a landing on the highway.
 
Clark1961 said:
In the finest POA tradition of knowing little but guessing a lot. Power on accelerated stall while turning to avoid tall trees. There was no attempt to turn for a landing on the highway.
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:)

You definitely can't tell what they were trying to do, but the outcome is always the same in low and slow and not getting the nose down, that's for sure.

If they had power and were just struggling the rotation started to the left because...

"If you don't put in more right rudder I'm going to rip the left rudder pedal out and beat you with it!"

;)
 
denverpilot said:
:)

You definitely can't tell what they were trying to do, but the outcome is always the same in low and slow and not getting the nose down, that's for sure.

If they had power and were just struggling the rotation started to the left because...

"If you don't put in more right rudder I'm going to rip the left rudder pedal out and beat you with it!"

;)
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A right turn and left rotation sure don't work for a 150...but that's what it did. Maybe it was an ill advised slip to the right. Slipping on departure leads to departure?
 
Clark1961 said:
A right turn and left rotation sure don't work for a 150...but that's what it did. Maybe it was an ill advised slip to the right. Slipping on departure leads to departure?
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Nah, it looks to me like they're adding right aileron (increasing left wing angle of attack) and it breaks. Whether it was to try to reach the road or just to try to keep wings level, is impossible to tell, but that technique is how we'd "speed up" the unholy slow spin entry in a 172... and the 150/152 will spin way "better" than the Skychicken.

As soon as a 172 starts to drop the nose, racking in right aileron for a left spin helps it get going like instantly. I don't think we ever had to try that hard in the 150, but if you did, it'd go instantly if you were slow enough. The up aileron on the outside had little effect on it, but the down aileron deepened the stall out at the wingtip to get the rotation started. Lever arm and all that.

They're just hanging there nose-high and then the left wing breaks. Sure looks like pro-spin aileron input to me.

Both the 150/152 and 172 much prefer spinning to the left than right, for all the usual "more right rudder!" reasons. Getting a 172 to go right is an exercise in patience and usually a climbing left turn to help it get started along with more left aileron once it starts to break.

The old "now that you've done a few, let's see what happens when you DON'T keep the ailerons neutral and try to stop the start of rotation with aileron... there's the break, try to stop it with aileron... whooops!.. wheeee!..."!

Fun. But only fun at a safe altitude. No bueno done down low.
 
denverpilot said:
Nah, it looks to me like they're adding right aileron (increasing left wing angle of attack) and it breaks. Whether it was to try to reach the road or just to try to keep wings level, is impossible to tell, but that technique is how we'd "speed up" the unholy slow spin entry in a 172... and the 150/152 will spin way "better" than the Skychicken.

As soon as a 172 starts to drop the nose, racking in right aileron for a left spin helps it get going like instantly. I don't think we ever had to try that hard in the 150, but if you did, it'd go instantly if you were slow enough. The up aileron on the outside had little effect on it, but the down aileron deepened the stall out at the wingtip to get the rotation started. Lever arm and all that.

They're just hanging there nose-high and then the left wing breaks. Sure looks like pro-spin aileron input to me.

Both the 150/152 and 172 much prefer spinning to the left than right, for all the usual "more right rudder!" reasons. Getting a 172 to go right is an exercise in patience and usually a climbing left turn to help it get started along with more left aileron once it starts to break.

The old "now that you've done a few, let's see what happens when you DON'T keep the ailerons neutral and try to stop the start of rotation with aileron... there's the break, try to stop it with aileron... whooops!.. wheeee!..."!

Fun. But only fun at a safe altitude. No bueno done down low.
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Yabut there is so much rudder available that the spin is readily avoidable if anyone is paying just a little 'tention.
 
Clark1961 said:
In the finest POA tradition of knowing little but guessing a lot. Power on accelerated stall while turning to avoid tall trees. There was no attempt to turn for a landing on the highway.
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That's my guess as well. I don't see a point where power is lost. Instead, I see a slow climb and a stall as he approaches the trees.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yabut there is so much rudder available that the spin is readily avoidable if anyone is paying just a little 'tention.
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True. Very true. But you gotta get your feet involved when slow.

This is why I like the "falling leaf" technique for getting feet conntected to brain, but there's some cross-over problems with it in that students think you can't get slow at full power. And it's kinda hard to demo a "climbing leaf".

I do remember my first instructor doing something similar though... we were purposefully spinning that day but he told me to TRY to hold it from spinning with rudder. Set up the full power climb and wait to get slower and slower and pulllllll while keeping the feet going at any bobble or gust to keep wings level. Eventually it still goes over but you hang there trying not to let it.

That's about as close as you can get, and since spinning things is so out of vogue these days... not too many have done it. :(
 
The other thing you get out of that "dance to not let it spin" game is that with the prop howling up front the rudder is a LOT more effective than when doing the "falling leaf".

It kinda locks into your brain cells that power and propwash make both the rudder and elevator more responsive.
 
August, Texas, afternoon, C150, dual. Can anyone find out what the temperature and relative humidity were and how much they weighed? I think this accident may have occurred before the plane departed.
 
luvflyin said:
August, Texas, afternoon, C150, dual. Can anyone find out what the temperature and relative humidity were and how much they weighed? I think this accident may have occurred before the plane departed.
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Aug 1, 2017. KTYR. Hi: 94 Dew Point: 67. ~3k density altitude in those conditions. Don't know anything about the pax.
 
luvflyin said:
August, Texas, afternoon, C150, dual. Can anyone find out what the temperature and relative humidity were and how much they weighed? I think this accident may have occurred before the plane departed.
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They were well out of ground effect, and the airplane was flying fine. Even if the climb rate wasn't what they wanted. They weren't going to hit the trees.

It may have looked like they were, to them, and someone may have instinctually pulled back more because the trees were closer than they'd ever seen them, but they weren't going to hit them.

There's also a definite right turn in that video. You can't tell if they were thinking about the road or just missing trees ahead, but that's not a gust. That's the start of a turn.

Of course we can't see anything past the edge of the road for tree height, but I doubt they're much higher beyond, if at all.

The desire to pull is overwhelming without practice NOT to.
 
glad to hear that one is ok and one might be ok.looking at that I did not expect anyone to live. hope they all get well
 
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