And that redundancy is needed because mags are crappy ignition sources.
In-flight Emergencies/Close calls fairly routine?
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Well for efficiency and what not, yes. But none of these engines are designed for efficiency.
I have a mag on a snowblower that has been operating without maintenance since 1984. The snowblower quitting isn't nearly as hazardous to me as the airplane engine quitting.
Nope, they are weak sparks. The reason you have two is not that the mags themselves aren't particularly unreliable but the fact that they fail to be able to generate enough of a spark if the plug is fouled. When was the last time you had a fouled plug in a car? My electronic ignition burned through some really bad crap. Even my old Nissan that had a electronic spark generator and still had a distributor managed to keep the engine firing normally when the cap was pretty much blown to bits inside.
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
I have to disagree on this one. Neither statement is true.
The engine in my 1970s designed and built airplane is a 1930's air cooled tractor engine. On brand new model, it's also a 1930s engine with mechanical fuel injection.
All it has for redundancy over my lawn mower is a second spark plug in each cylinder hole and a second magneto.
It's a known quantity and fits the bill real well for what the airplane is designed to do, but redundancy? Nah. It doesn't have it. It's a piston single.
The usual path to engine redundancy is hanging a second one on it, one on each wing.That has performance issues and training requirements plus higher operating costs.
"Newer airplanes", with how the fleet is maintained and inspected is also nearly meaningless. Engine time outweighs airframe time. They are meant to be replaced. Even the cylinders unscrew and come off. For a reason. Same reason they did on the tractor in the 1930s.
All sorts of old engines that are nearly timed out on newer airframes, and also the opposite, old airframes with brand spanking new engines. Any busy flight school has to maintain them all the same way.
If you told me I could fly a 2016 that was flown until ten hours from TBO and then parked and sat until today in 2017, sitting in a coastal state outdoors, or mine with 1000 hours on the engine, flown regularly, always hangared, and in a dry state... and I had to go over inhospitable terrain... I'd be reaching for my keys for mine. Not even a moment of hesitation.
Well, to be fair... 1990 hours in a year, if you flew 4 hours per day, would mean it flew until like last week... so it'd likely be pretty happy barring any failures lol
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
We also don't run leaded fuel, which sure helps.
Ken Whitson
Pre-Flight
Ken Whitson
Pre-Flight
Every day, everything in life poses degrees of risk. I dare say that you will have more "close calls" in one month of driving than in a lifetime of flying. Which are we most likely to remember: 1) Sullenberger's event or 2) Flt 4380, which took off, flew 2500 miles, and landed with no issues whatsoever?
For myself, with approx. 1800 hours, I have had no engine failures and no in-flight equipment failures. I have had, at most, 3 three semi-situations. An unexpected ground fog layer at night, racing an airliner for landing priority, landing very hot and very long. All were successfully negotiated without much fanfare. The other side of the coin is that I have been privileged to observe a 360-degree rainbow, flying beside (& looking up to) 10-12,000 foot mountain peaks, seeing the Grand Canyon from a bird's eye view, experiencing simultaneous 2- and 3-plane landings on a single runway at Oshkosh, and much much more. So, if you do have the inclination to learn to fly, take the initiative and do it. Otherwise, you will be forever rue your decision to not do this because of your over-trepidation of all of the bad things that could possibly happen, thus foregoing the likelihood of a lot of good things happening.
For myself, with approx. 1800 hours, I have had no engine failures and no in-flight equipment failures. I have had, at most, 3 three semi-situations. An unexpected ground fog layer at night, racing an airliner for landing priority, landing very hot and very long. All were successfully negotiated without much fanfare. The other side of the coin is that I have been privileged to observe a 360-degree rainbow, flying beside (& looking up to) 10-12,000 foot mountain peaks, seeing the Grand Canyon from a bird's eye view, experiencing simultaneous 2- and 3-plane landings on a single runway at Oshkosh, and much much more. So, if you do have the inclination to learn to fly, take the initiative and do it. Otherwise, you will be forever rue your decision to not do this because of your over-trepidation of all of the bad things that could possibly happen, thus foregoing the likelihood of a lot of good things happening.
George Mohr
Line Up and Wait
250 hours TT here. I've had two anomalous events, the first was on my first solo in my airplane (booo!). Lost my audio panel, and had to land NORDO. No big deal. The second was a failed alternator at dusk close to home. Also a non-issue (except for my wallet lol!)
I practice engine outs regularly, and I have a glider rating which helps with the confidence level. The only thing that really scares me is in-flight fire, and that seems incredibly rare.
I practice engine outs regularly, and I have a glider rating which helps with the confidence level. The only thing that really scares me is in-flight fire, and that seems incredibly rare.
Thanks! I appreciate the pep talk- very good. Everybody has been great. I appreciate it.
denverpilot
Tied Down
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
6 months? She'll be fineCall it eight hours a day and it sat since then.
Just run her hard again and make her happy.
denverpilot
Tied Down
6 months? She'll be fine
Dat first flight though... and whatever interesting bits end up in the oil filter...
mkosmo
Pattern Altitude
See no evil!Dat first flight though... and whatever interesting bits end up in the oil filter...
James331
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Close calls, not common in my experience.
You're far more likely to kill yourself based on bad general decisions, the type of thinking that'll end up getting you killed in just about any activity
Being over weight is also the #1 killed in the US.
Etc.
That said, hate to break it to you, this is life and NO ONE makes it out alive, best we can do in our flash in the pan of existence is to try to truly exist and live life, even taking every precaution and never leaving home and having a team of doctors follow you around, we do not live nearly long enough to risk having a mediocre life.
As someone once said, get busy living or get busy dying.
You're far more likely to kill yourself based on bad general decisions, the type of thinking that'll end up getting you killed in just about any activity
Being over weight is also the #1 killed in the US.
Etc.
That said, hate to break it to you, this is life and NO ONE makes it out alive, best we can do in our flash in the pan of existence is to try to truly exist and live life, even taking every precaution and never leaving home and having a team of doctors follow you around, we do not live nearly long enough to risk having a mediocre life.
As someone once said, get busy living or get busy dying.
Thanks James- said another way, a friend of mine likes to point out- The mortality rate is 100%. No exceptions.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
No one is pep-talking you, for all I know you're fat little boy eating mayonnaise out of a jar in your Mom's basement. Folks are just telling it like it is.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Couple of alternators, one in Mexico. Flew home on a handheld. Mooney had manual gear and flaps so no issue there.
Ran myself out of gas once. Within gliding of home airport.
Ran myself out of gas once. Within gliding of home airport.
Hilarious. And lay off the weight comments- I'm WORKING ON IT.
danhagan
En-Route
Ron, your post is very similar to my experiences. Lost a friend with 20,000 hours to CFIT (VMC-IMC in a plane not equipped for it - pipeline). Lost another to a mis-fueling accident (Jet A instead of 100LL). Not a personal friend, but I had met him, died attempting a barrel roll after take off.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Good for you. More useful load so you can cary more avgas.
James331
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One thought, if you want the most cards stacked for you possible, by far the number one, get AWSOME training, it's all the CFI not the flight school.
Some of the safest pilots I've met/trained built their initial foundation in older tailwheels or gliders. Get your initial PPL in a glider, that would probably help make you about as "safe" as possible for a new pilot.
http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFlyMap.asp
Skip Miller
Final Approach
Were you east of JFK VFR along the beach? I lost XMIT comms there, too. Squawked 7600 and continued eastbound until I could get 2-way comms with NY Approach nearer Islip. Later I was told there is a dead spot in the area that causes frequent 7600s there. -Skip
George Mohr
Line Up and Wait
I'll +1 what James said about glider ratings. I really do believe it makes one a better pilot (but then again, any additional rating probably does as well). It's just that gliders really teach you to fly well on the slow edge of the envelope, and keep constantly thinking about the land-out variables. Two things that will come in handy on a forced landing.
Skip Miller
Final Approach
AKBill
En-Route
I have a little over 1000hrs and have had no major issues. Aborted 2 takeoffs over the years because the pito tune was frozen and I had no airspeed indication. Com failure, now I carry a handheld as a precaution. Transponder let all the smoke out secured electrical and flew home. Stuck in Mississippi for a week waiting for the weather to improve. An A&P during annual left a mag hold down bolt loose, had a large rpm drop on run up taxied back to parking to investigate.
BigBadLou
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Lou
Look at it mathematically from the financial perspective.
If engines failed as often as you hear, nobody would have the money or time to fly because each rebuild takes $40k and 6 months on average. Most pilots don't have that kind of money to throw out that often. (insurance companies do not cover engines)''
That said, it might be helpful to calm you down and reassure you that engines quit mostly due to fuel starvation, most commonly caused by the most unreliable part in all aviation history: the loose nut behind the yoke.
So if you have enough IQ, good self-discipline, will to live and of course that little bit of luck where your engine won't just seize mid-flight, you will fly a long time with us.
Does that make you feel better?
I guess I'm unlucky. I had the thing throw rods through the case even though I had plenty of precious fluids on board.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Ever
A pet peeve of mine is that glider pilots say the rating will make you a better pilot. So do the tail wheel pilots, as do IR pilots. I started to think about this and asked myself "what makes a pilot good?" To me, the best pilots either don't crash, or when they do no one dies.
Landing airplanes sans engine didn't really cut it, after all if you plan correctly and pay the least amount of attention to your engine you'll likely have one when you need it. Agreed if you always fly a glider, you'll do better when your airplane turns into one. But a well maintained airplane turning into a glider is still a relatively rare event.
I really don't see what learning to fly airplanes that were designed before any of my living relatives were born has to do with being a better pilot. That one escapes me.
The IR folks, on the other hand have a point. The most common cause of pilots cashing in their chips is bad weather. The IR teaches you how to deal with that. That said, IR pilots buy it inadvertently flying into VMC nearly as often as VFR pilots, so there is the knock on that.
At the end of my little diatribe I agree with the quoted poster, any decent training will make one a better pilot.
With any luck my little rant will pi$$ everyone off and start a big argument.
A pet peeve of mine is that glider pilots say the rating will make you a better pilot. So do the tail wheel pilots, as do IR pilots. I started to think about this and asked myself "what makes a pilot good?" To me, the best pilots either don't crash, or when they do no one dies.
Landing airplanes sans engine didn't really cut it, after all if you plan correctly and pay the least amount of attention to your engine you'll likely have one when you need it. Agreed if you always fly a glider, you'll do better when your airplane turns into one. But a well maintained airplane turning into a glider is still a relatively rare event.
I really don't see what learning to fly airplanes that were designed before any of my living relatives were born has to do with being a better pilot. That one escapes me.
The IR folks, on the other hand have a point. The most common cause of pilots cashing in their chips is bad weather. The IR teaches you how to deal with that. That said, IR pilots buy it inadvertently flying into VMC nearly as often as VFR pilots, so there is the knock on that.
At the end of my little diatribe I agree with the quoted poster, any decent training will make one a better pilot.
With any luck my little rant will pi$$ everyone off and start a big argument.
Clark1961
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Stay out of IMC, and avoid uncontrolled fields on good weather weekends. That will reduce your risk a ton.
For the GA fleet, there is almost no integration of systems - all the black boxes can fail, and the airplane will still fly fine. Flight controls are generally mechanical, so you aren't dependent on electrons or hydraulics to maintain control. In good weather, complete failure of the electrical system is annoying, vice critical.
For aircraft like a 172, you can survive an engine failure and forced landing in the length of an average suburban driveway.
But you can get killed flying GA. You have to work at it, in a 172, for instance, but it can be done. These are not particularly robust aircraft, and you can break one if you lose control, say, in the clouds. Or stall/spin turning final. Bad weather will kill you - and there isn't much system redundancy in GA, which matters in the clouds.
If you are heavily "risk adverse", flying should give you pause; I think of it as roughly equivalent to off-roading, when considering risk. You can mostly ignore what you hear in the general media - they sell beer and cars, via drama; facts don't enter into it. You can also ignore the "accident rates" you see in GA forums - no one knows the hours flown by the fleet, and many "incidents" aren't recorded; no one can give you a stat on engine failure rates, for instance. We know anecdotally they aren't common, but that's all.
For the GA fleet, there is almost no integration of systems - all the black boxes can fail, and the airplane will still fly fine. Flight controls are generally mechanical, so you aren't dependent on electrons or hydraulics to maintain control. In good weather, complete failure of the electrical system is annoying, vice critical.
For aircraft like a 172, you can survive an engine failure and forced landing in the length of an average suburban driveway.
But you can get killed flying GA. You have to work at it, in a 172, for instance, but it can be done. These are not particularly robust aircraft, and you can break one if you lose control, say, in the clouds. Or stall/spin turning final. Bad weather will kill you - and there isn't much system redundancy in GA, which matters in the clouds.
If you are heavily "risk adverse", flying should give you pause; I think of it as roughly equivalent to off-roading, when considering risk. You can mostly ignore what you hear in the general media - they sell beer and cars, via drama; facts don't enter into it. You can also ignore the "accident rates" you see in GA forums - no one knows the hours flown by the fleet, and many "incidents" aren't recorded; no one can give you a stat on engine failure rates, for instance. We know anecdotally they aren't common, but that's all.
James331
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Learning how to fly the planes without flaps, planes that don't hide mistakes well, that is building a better foundation.
It's kinda like picking a college based on which one will give you the best understanding of your subject vs which on has the easiest classes to pass
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abqtj
Pre-takeoff checklist
I realize that I'm still very new to aviation, but I think most of the "X makes you a better pilot" is the fact that you're gaining more and more experience, which inherently should make you a better pilot. Regardless of the additional rating or whatever you are adding, adding time/experience/skill will naturally make you better.
Kritchlow
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I have no stats to back this up, but it has been said in many aviation circles, including here on POA..
Flying a small airplane is about as safe as riding a motorcycle.
That should give you a true idea of what it's all about.
Flying a small airplane is about as safe as riding a motorcycle.
That should give you a true idea of what it's all about.
denverpilot
Tied Down
There's no real stats to back that second one up. A proficient pilot going into a busy uncontrolled airfield is going to be just fine, by the actual accident statistics.
It's the non-proficient pilot losing directional control ON the runway that is an significantly higher in the accident rates than midairs or any sorts of traffic problems. The stick and rudder skills to nail crosswind landings are usually the weak point.
I think that's only the case if you use fatalities as the metric. Motorcycles and light aircraft have about the same fatality rate per hour, and about ten times what it is for cars.
I've had several friends put in the shock-o-rama when people turned into their motorcycle. I've saw lots of motorcycle crashes including fatalities when I was a paramedic. Three stand out:
1. Guy dumps bike on US 40 and goes sliding another 200' down the road. Massive road rash. Declines treatment. Says he does this all the time (once would be enough for me).
2. Motorcyclist stopped at a stop sign gets rear ended by drunk driver. I roll up on the scene to see the bike still upright, wedged in the front of the car. Big dent on the hood where the biker must have landed. He went around, smashed the driver's window with his hand and ripped the driver out by his hair. I was able to get the biker over to the ambulance to "check him out" while my partner dealt with the injuries to the driver.
3. Motorcyclist comes over a slight ridge in the road and hits a 4x4 sitting in the middle of the road (I think it was a mailbox post). Get's launched off the bike. Compound fractures to the femur and tons of other injuries. Put him in the chopper to shock-o-rama, but he didn't make it.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I had an instructor that said airplane engines only blow up when the throttle is reduced...
I asked him if that included everything, cars, motorcycles, big trucks and weed whackers. He was absolutely positive he was right.
He was very serious about not reducing power until at cruise altitude.
I saw a car motor toss a rod while at idle. I only lost one engine while racing, it happened coming out of turn two at WFO, or full throttle.
I asked him if that included everything, cars, motorcycles, big trucks and weed whackers. He was absolutely positive he was right.
He was very serious about not reducing power until at cruise altitude.
I saw a car motor toss a rod while at idle. I only lost one engine while racing, it happened coming out of turn two at WFO, or full throttle.
Mine IO-550 through several rods 45 minutes into the flight. I hadn't touched the throttle in 40 minutes.
