Rotting Planes. Sad.

Jay Honeck said:
This is just the start. Our airport has at least 40 hangars that I have never seen open. Right outside of our hangar is a sad, old Apache that is slowly returning to its native elements.
When the World War II guys hung it up back in the '90s, we lost the majority of GA pilots. Then the Korean guys left us. Now, the Vietnam guys are going away.

After them? There are very few of us. In 10 years, after the ADS-B mandate, you'll be able to buy a 172 for chump change.
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Many of us left may be flying RVs by then...
 
rsleeds said:
I agree with you. It seems the crowd that thinks "I'll fly it again" has an alternate crowd equally as large that thinks they "can make it fly again." IMO, these airplanes and their stories aren't anyone else's business.
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I agree. They're inanimate objects and what the owners do with them is not my business, providing it's not hurting anyone else.

Mike Smith said:
I don't really "care", but there are only so many of those old birds out there. Our generation may never see it, but a day is coming where there are just not going to be many airworthy planes left that the regular guy, like me, can afford to buy/fly. Every ramp queen is one less. I don't know the statistics, but I would think more old piston singles go out each year than new ones come in.
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We can't keep flying the same airplanes indefinitely. Sooner or later some new ones have to enter the fleet, or general aviation will disappear.
 
jimhorner said:
There used to be a P-51 parked on the ramp for years; never saw it move...
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That airplane was the victim of a widow who didn't know/didn't care.
Then:

American_Aero_Dixie_Boy_P51_33.jpg


Here's what the Mustang looks like now:

http://americanaeroservices.com/dixie-boy-p-51-mustang-2/

4839448010_7d47bc2ba0_b.jpg
 
Hacker said:
That airplane was the victim of a widow who didn't know/didn't care.
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That's really great to see that it was aquired by someone with the resources and time to get it back into top shape. Thanks for posting this. So glad it didn't end up in the scrap heap.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
We can't keep flying the same airplanes indefinitely. Sooner or later some new ones have to enter the fleet, or general aviation will disappear.[/QUOTE]

True, I'm afraid that will probably cost the average joe out of GA though.
 
I'm at the tail-end of the Vietnam era guys, in my early sixties; we have a club, 15 guys, and a pretty healthy spread of ages from late twenties to late seventies. I'm hoping that's the norm around the country, though we do operate in the DC area, so maybe there is more disposable income here than other places. So, there are younger pilots around. . .

When I think about buying an airplane just for myself, it's always an Experimental - the spam cans are old, and the newer ones are too expensive - and really, not that interesting, are at least not interesting enough to do the effort to round up a couple partners to make the $$$ work. I find the Cirrus is much like a Doctor's car; over priced, pretty, and nothing special in handling. A new Cessna is still a Cessna - not a thrilling pick, actually.

So I look at experimentals, like LongEZs or RV-4s. Will I? I dunno know. . .maybe go real low end, no electrical system, open cockpit something, etc.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Trust me, as an airport operator myself, we want nothing more than an airport full of active airplanes. Even if we have such a clause, how does an airport remove such an aircraft? Most are unflyable, so they would have to be trucked out.
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midwestpa24, can you estimate the fraction of small planes that are unflyable, that are hangared at a typical GA airport?

You probably know better than most of us who have a private hangar and can't see what's inside the others.
 
OkieFlyer said:
It is a shame. There is a decent Sundowner rotting on the ramp at my home drome. I think it's still in flyable condition right now, but it won't be long before it gets into "wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole" territory. No a great plane by any means, but it could be a good first plane for somebody.

Over in the next town, there is an early C-210 ('60 or '61), a C-310 (A model I think), and a freakin' C-185 for cryin' out loud, just sitting. They were all covered in dust with flat tires when I started hanging out over there around 5-6 years ago. Terrible.

I've tried to find out who owns the C-185, and the airport manager says the old guy doesn't want anyone calling about it. I'm pretty sure he's really old and will never touch it. What a waste of an in-demand airplane.
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185 is the only one worth saving. The rest should be turned into beer cans.

Sometimes while I'm drinking beer I contemplate if my beer can was at one point part of an airplane.
 
DavidWhite said:
185 is the only one worth saving. The rest should be turned into beer cans.

Sometimes while I'm drinking beer I contemplate if my beer can was at one point part of an airplane.
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Actually, the 185 is in the worst shape of all of them, but it is a 185. All except the Sundowner have been in a hangar the whole time. Don't know what their stories are, but they still look pretty good cosmetically.
 
Yikes. Some people just can't let it go.
 
> "One of the saddest sights I've seen was seeing White Lightning N100WL rotting away on the ramp at RBW a long time ago. It was the first one made and had all these speed awards stenciled on the side of the aircraft. It was just sitting out in the rain with flat tires and corroding away. Believe it was later scrapped."

I was in Ralph Wilcox's hangar (KSEE) in the 80's when the two fellows designing and building the original prototype came by to discuss composites. That would make me sad too to see that plane as a tie-down basket case.
 
I tried to buy a plane years ago that was just barely worth refurbishing. I would have had to cut down a seedling to cleat the hangar opening.

Now, there is a tree blocking getting the plane out.
 
Here is one that has been sitting not flying since 29 September 2016...



Oh, wait! That is mine!
I got my Basic Medical last week and the battery is on the charger. I'm going to preflight the hell out of it and then take it up soon. The annual is good to the end of May.
Yes, those are tire covers over 2 of the 3 tires. Not a great fit, but good enough to keep the sun off the south facing tires.
 

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Jay Honeck said:
This is just the start. Our airport has at least 40 hangars that I have never seen open. Right outside of our hangar is a sad, old Apache that is slowly returning to its native elements.
When the World War II guys hung it up back in the '90s, we lost the majority of GA pilots. Then the Korean guys left us. Now, the Vietnam guys are going away.

After them? There are very few of us. In 10 years, after the ADS-B mandate, you'll be able to buy a 172 for chump change.
Click to expand...

In 2007 there were 590,000 pilots. In 2017 there are 584,000 pilots, and there are over 50% more student pilots today than 10 years ago. Predicting the demise of GA based on your airport might not be wise.

The idea that a $4,000 ADS-B mandate would turn the value of a 172 into "chump change" is absurd.
 
I have wondered about that state of the aviation world, because all I read is that pilot numbers and airplane ownership is dwindling. However our airport does not reflect that, we have seen a 50% or better increase in operational based aircraft in the last 10 years, our FBO's CFIs are flying 70-80 hours per month with students, and activity seems to be amazing. I realize that is just our small part of the world and doesn't represent the industry, but surely its working in other places too.
 
N3368K said:
These are at my former airport. Two guys, both living elsewhere (retired Airline types) own these and pay the hangar rent one year in advance. Never seen any of them move or anyone even come to see them. Hangar is unlocked so I went in and took pictures a couple of years ago.

View attachment 53463 View attachment 53464 View attachment 53465 View attachment 53466 View attachment 53467 View attachment 53468 View attachment 53469 View attachment 53470 View attachment 53471 View attachment 53472
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Is that at Colonial?
 
Mine is no longer a ramp queen and I'm daytime current!

And a sad note, my attitude indicator is kaput. It worked 7.5 months ago.

Kiddo's Driver said:
Here is one that has been sitting not flying since 29 September 2016...



Oh, wait! That is mine!
I got my Basic Medical last week and the battery is on the charger. I'm going to preflight the hell out of it and then take it up soon. The annual is good to the end of May.
Yes, those are tire covers over 2 of the 3 tires. Not a great fit, but good enough to keep the sun off the south facing tires.
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Attended my local airport advisory board meeting this morning, and the wish to ease out inactive/junk airplanes was discussed. One guy suggested a rule requiring all aircraft had a current Annual Inspection. Had to point out that it would eliminate all the homebuilts, active or not.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
Jay Honeck said:
This is just the start. Our airport has at least 40 hangars that I have never seen open. ...
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That's the way it is at my small town field. I was stuck on a tiedown for over a year before finally getting in a hangar. Meanwhile, the city-owned hangars were mostly filled with aircraft that hadn't flown for a decade or more. Some hangars didn't even have aircraft in them, just old cars, boxes, etc. I talked to the city manager many times. At first he was gung ho - "we'll clear out some hangar space for actively flying aircraft", then he found out that it was going to be a big hassle.... what he told me was - "if there are aircraft or aircraft parts in the hangar, it is impossible to prove that they won't be flying 'soon' ". I about the time I was thinking of calling the FAA for their assistance, a hangar spot opened up.
 
172andyou said:
In 2007 there were 590,000 pilots. In 2017 there are 584,000 pilots, and there are over 50% more student pilots today than 10 years ago. Predicting the demise of GA based on your airport might not be wise.

The idea that a $4,000 ADS-B mandate would turn the value of a 172 into "chump change" is absurd.
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The reason for that increase in the number of student pilots is that the length of time that a student cert is valid changed in 2010, and changed again in 2016. In 2007, there were a total of 328,493 Private, Recreational, Sport, and Commercial pilots in the database. In 2016, the last year available, there were 264,458, a decline of almost 20%. Over that period, we added about 14,000 pilots with airline transport privileges, a gain of about 10 percent, but that's still a net decline of 50,000 pilots, outside of students. If you're trying to get a handle on student activity, I'd look at the number of student certs issued, and they declined by nearly 30% between 2007 and 2015. The way student certs were handled changed in 2016, so those numbers aren't directly comparable, which is why I'm quoting 2015.

midwestpa24 said:
I have wondered about that state of the aviation world, because all I read is that pilot numbers and airplane ownership is dwindling. However our airport does not reflect that, we have seen a 50% or better increase in operational based aircraft in the last 10 years, our FBO's CFIs are flying 70-80 hours per month with students, and activity seems to be amazing. I realize that is just our small part of the world and doesn't represent the industry, but surely its working in other places too.
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I think training activity is concentrating to certain airports. There are a couple of airports near me that used to have training operations but no longer do, I wonder if this is happening in other areas as well.
 
NoHeat said:
midwestpa24, can you estimate the fraction of small planes that are unflyable, that are hangared at a typical GA airport?

You probably know better than most of us who have a private hangar and can't see what's inside the others.
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Sorry for not responding, just saw this post. I can only speak for my current airport, but out of 70 aircraft on the airport, maybe 10 are unflyable. However most of those belong to one person, that formerly ran a business on the airport and never got rid of them. Only a few here belong to private individuals. But as I said in my other post, our airport has seen GA really turn around, a lot of new active pilots and aircraft. We can only hope this is a trend and not a bubble, but we all know another recession could happen at anytime.
 
FormerHangie said:
The reason for that increase in the number of student pilots is that the length of time that a student cert is valid changed in 2010, and changed again in 2016. In 2007, there were a total of 328,493 Private, Recreational, Sport, and Commercial pilots in the database. In 2016, the last year available, there were 264,458, a decline of almost 20%. Over that period, we added about 14,000 pilots with airline transport privileges, a gain of about 10 percent, but that's still a net decline of 50,000 pilots, outside of students. If you're trying to get a handle on student activity, I'd look at the number of student certs issued, and they declined by nearly 30% between 2007 and 2015. The way student certs were handled changed in 2016, so those numbers aren't directly comparable, which is why I'm quoting 2015.
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Here's where I got mine: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/

Where did you get yours?
 
Here's a couple more. There's a straight tail Cessna on the other side of the hangers, but someone's keeping air in the tires and mowed but it never moves.IMG_0638.jpg
 
172andyou said:
Here's where I got mine: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/

Where did you get yours?
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Same place. Look at the number of student pilots over time, at the one year jump in 2010. Here's the explanatory footnote:

1/ In July 2010, the FAA issued a rule that increased the duration of validity for student pilot certificates for pilots under the age of 40 from 36 to 60 months.
This resulted in the increase in active student pilots to 119,119 from 72,280 at the end of 2009.

Also, go to table 22, Student Certificates by month. Here's the annual totals:

YEAR 2016* 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 2007
Total 36,145 47,381 47,407 49,566 54,370 55,298 54,064 54,876 61,194 66,953

Remember, the way student certs changed in 2016, so don't get too concerned about the big dropoff.

The other thing I look at to get some idea of general aviation activity is avgas usage. The best figure I can find it the US EIA's Product Supplied one: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mgaupus1&f=a
There's been a steady decline over the last three decades. Some of this is due to the greatly reduced number of working planes that are piston powered, but I think that's about done. If you look at FlightAware during the business day, very few of the piston aircraft that I'd expect would be professionally flown are in the air at any given time. Other than Cape Air's fleet of 402s, I don't see many of the bigger piston twins there. There's a reasonable number of aircraft that I would assume are being owner flown for business, mostly SR22s, but also Barons and Bonanzas, and a decent number of Skyhawks that I assume are mostly doing training. Anyway, that figure is declining at around three percent per year, which is slightly larger than the decline in the pilot population.
 
FormerHangie said:
Same place. Look at the number of student pilots over time, at the one year jump in 2010. Here's the explanatory footnote:
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Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I actually already understood your point about student pilots. But that page have a *much* higher number of total pilots than you quoted and a much smaller delta between 07 and 16. Where did you get that from?
 
172andyou said:
Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I actually already understood your point about student pilots. But that page have a *much* higher number of total pilots than you quoted and a much smaller delta between 07 and 16. Where did you get that from?
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You were counting all pilots, I was trying to compare the numbers of active, fully licensed fixed wing GA pilots, so I excluded students, ATPs, rotorcraft only, and glider pilots. When you look at student pilot numbers, there have typically been around 48,000 student certificates issued per year, but only around 17,000 private tickets, so many of that 120,000 or so student pilot population aren't actively flying. Similarly, there are almost 160,000 airline transport pilots, some of which fly GA as well, but it's my (limited) experience that most don't. At the rate things are going, there will be more ATPs than private ticketholders in a few years.
 
FormerHangie said:
You were counting all pilots, I was trying to compare the numbers of active, fully licensed fixed wing GA pilots, so I excluded students, ATPs, rotorcraft only, and glider pilots.
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Ah, I gotcha. That is a legit way of looking at things.

FormerHangie said:
When you look at student pilot numbers, there have typically been around 48,000 student certificates issued per year, but only around 17,000 private tickets
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Where did you get 17,000 from? I was looking for that number, but couldn't find it. I'm interested in seeing that trend line also.
 
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