Hello, everyone. I'm working on my Commercial pilot certificate, and I need some assistance in understanding topics such as air carriers, holding out, private carriage, and common carriage. I have read through the regulations about them but I need some real world scenarios to help me understand them more. If anyone of you could help me with understanding this it would be greatly appreciated.
Commercial Pilot Regulations: Air Carrier, Holding Out, Private Carriage, and Common Carriage.
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denverpilot
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I believe we've had some threads on this lately. Type those terms into the search box at the top right, and you'll find 'em.
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
There are too many situations to address here, at least for me. Others are smarter in this stuff.
For me a CPL is the the ticket that lets you apply to work for a 135/121 outfit.
(Truth be told it generally takes an ATP for a good job).
Let the specifics of the company take care of the rest.
Now, if you're looking to open your own business...????
For me a CPL is the the ticket that lets you apply to work for a 135/121 outfit.
(Truth be told it generally takes an ATP for a good job).
Let the specifics of the company take care of the rest.
Now, if you're looking to open your own business...????
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you advertise or otherwise offer to take people flying, it is holding out.
Absent a commercial OPERATORS certificate (for example, Part 135), your commercial operations are limited
You can engage in the exceptions listed in 119.1 such as powerline patrol, banner tows, local sightseeing...
You can act as a pilot in a dry lease. That is, if the customer owns or leases a plane without a pilot, you can fly for them.
You can fly in private carriage. This one is more dicey, but essentially, it involves having a contract with a specific customer.
Absent a commercial OPERATORS certificate (for example, Part 135), your commercial operations are limited
You can engage in the exceptions listed in 119.1 such as powerline patrol, banner tows, local sightseeing...
You can act as a pilot in a dry lease. That is, if the customer owns or leases a plane without a pilot, you can fly for them.
You can fly in private carriage. This one is more dicey, but essentially, it involves having a contract with a specific customer.
This has become a very popular topic of interest all of a sudden. Within the last couple of weeks there's been at least 3 or 4 threads asking this same thing. Use the search bar function.
midlifeflyer
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This is the way I teach it. It works better one-on-one since there are always questions, but FWIW, here goes (it's a copy and paste from a personal FAQ)...
The single most important thing to learn is, there is a difference between the privileges of a commercial "pilot" certificate and the requirements for engaging in a commercial "operation." If you fly for compensation, you are exercising a "commercial pilot" privilege. If you provide both pilot and airplane to transport other people or their property, you are engaged in a "commercial operation."
To give simple examples, if you are hired as a corporate pilot to fly a company airplane or to ferry someone else's airplane, you are only providing them commercial "pilot" services. Their airplane; your services. OTOH, if you take your C182 and start doing air tours or start transporting cargo for someone, you are engaged in a commercial "operation."
Get that difference, and you are way ahead of most in understanding this stuff.
From there, move to FAR 119.1(e). Most commercial "operations" (providing aircraft and pilot) require an operating certificate of some type. Might be Part 135 (charter and some smaller airlines), 121 (the big airlines) but some kind of operating certificate. FAR 119.1(e) is a list of commercial "operations" that do not require an operating certificate. That "air tour?" 119.1(e) says, "no operating certificate required," although there are some other requirements. Transporting that cargo? No 119.1(e) exception, so you need an operating certificate.
There are two other, related, concepts you need to understand. One is the difference between "common" and "private" carriage. "Carriage" just means providing airplane and pilot for transporting persons or property. "Common" means offered to the public, or, as the FAA puts it, a segment of the public. "Private" means only with a very select few. The difference between the two is the other concept: "holding out," which just means "letting people know."
If all that leaves you thinking the lines are blurry, you are right. After all, how does anyone know you are available to transport them unless you let them know? The reality is, it's so blurry, it doesn't make any practical difference. FAR 119.23 says "private" carriage requires an operating certificate, with some exceptions. Bottom line, public or private, if you provide airplane and pilot for a purpose other than one listed in 119.1(e) , you need some kind of operating certificate. But you still have to understand the difference because it gets tested.
I wouldn't worry too much about more than understanding and being able to apply those basics - (1) your privileges are as a commercial pilot; (2) they don't automatically allow you to engage in a commercial operation; and (3) there needs to be some specific regulatory authority to engage in a commercial "operation," such as one of the activities permitted by 119.1(e) or under a Part 135 operating certificate.
Yeah, I know. It's complicated. That's why lawyers get paid big bucks to draft things like leases between a parent company and its 100%-owned subsidiary that does nothing but provide flight services only to its parent designed to prevent the subsidiary from being treated as a Part 135 operation.
Fortunately, it's mostly about understanding the basics such as, "does your commercial certificate allow you to take your neighbor and his family to their vacation destination in an airplane you own or rent and be paid for it? The answer is no since that would be a commercial "operation" and require a Part 135 operating certificate. Truth is, most DPEs don't understand more than the basics either.
The single most important thing to learn is, there is a difference between the privileges of a commercial "pilot" certificate and the requirements for engaging in a commercial "operation." If you fly for compensation, you are exercising a "commercial pilot" privilege. If you provide both pilot and airplane to transport other people or their property, you are engaged in a "commercial operation."
To give simple examples, if you are hired as a corporate pilot to fly a company airplane or to ferry someone else's airplane, you are only providing them commercial "pilot" services. Their airplane; your services. OTOH, if you take your C182 and start doing air tours or start transporting cargo for someone, you are engaged in a commercial "operation."
Get that difference, and you are way ahead of most in understanding this stuff.
From there, move to FAR 119.1(e). Most commercial "operations" (providing aircraft and pilot) require an operating certificate of some type. Might be Part 135 (charter and some smaller airlines), 121 (the big airlines) but some kind of operating certificate. FAR 119.1(e) is a list of commercial "operations" that do not require an operating certificate. That "air tour?" 119.1(e) says, "no operating certificate required," although there are some other requirements. Transporting that cargo? No 119.1(e) exception, so you need an operating certificate.
There are two other, related, concepts you need to understand. One is the difference between "common" and "private" carriage. "Carriage" just means providing airplane and pilot for transporting persons or property. "Common" means offered to the public, or, as the FAA puts it, a segment of the public. "Private" means only with a very select few. The difference between the two is the other concept: "holding out," which just means "letting people know."
If all that leaves you thinking the lines are blurry, you are right. After all, how does anyone know you are available to transport them unless you let them know? The reality is, it's so blurry, it doesn't make any practical difference. FAR 119.23 says "private" carriage requires an operating certificate, with some exceptions. Bottom line, public or private, if you provide airplane and pilot for a purpose other than one listed in 119.1(e) , you need some kind of operating certificate. But you still have to understand the difference because it gets tested.
I wouldn't worry too much about more than understanding and being able to apply those basics - (1) your privileges are as a commercial pilot; (2) they don't automatically allow you to engage in a commercial operation; and (3) there needs to be some specific regulatory authority to engage in a commercial "operation," such as one of the activities permitted by 119.1(e) or under a Part 135 operating certificate.
Yeah, I know. It's complicated. That's why lawyers get paid big bucks to draft things like leases between a parent company and its 100%-owned subsidiary that does nothing but provide flight services only to its parent designed to prevent the subsidiary from being treated as a Part 135 operation.
Fortunately, it's mostly about understanding the basics such as, "does your commercial certificate allow you to take your neighbor and his family to their vacation destination in an airplane you own or rent and be paid for it? The answer is no since that would be a commercial "operation" and require a Part 135 operating certificate. Truth is, most DPEs don't understand more than the basics either.
paflyer
Final Approach
Another term paper...
neilw2
Line Up and Wait
Thanks for this. I am taking my commercial ride in a few weeks and you explaining it this way saved me a ton of time in this part of studying. Really helpful!
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
yup....I thought so also.
denverpilot
Tied Down
This has become a very popular topic of interest all of a sudden. Within the last couple of weeks there's been at least 3 or 4 threads asking this same thing. Use the search bar function.
It's an FAA hot-button item right now for Commercial rides, expect to see it more often for a while. It's not for term papers, although we've seen that student behavior here in the past. This one's based on what DPEs are asking about lately.
midlifeflyer
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Nate, you are more current than I on commercial checkrides. For you or anyone else: are they starting to throw around the phrase "operational control"?
jordane93
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I believe I had a question on that on my written but the examiner never touched on operational control.
midlifeflyer
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I'm not sure it will save that much time studying but if it gives you a framework to help understand what you are reading, that's great.
denverpilot
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Wasn't mentioned on mine, but I suspect the DPEs have some leeway in exactly how they phrase their questions.
Mine went more like: "What can you DO with your new Commercial pilot certificate after you leave here today, if you pass?"
The expectation was probably that you had to cover all of the ideas and concepts in your explanation, and if you didn't, there'd be a gentle prod... "What about advertising?"
The DPE didn't want an essay, but they definitely wanted to know that you knew your legal limitations both of you and limitations of the aircraft.
My answer started with a smile and a laugh and, "Not much!" Haha. And then I expounded. That got a chuckle out of the DPE.
midlifeflyer
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Thanks. That's what I would expect. On paper, "operational control" a simple concept - FAR 1.1 says "Operational control, with respect to a flight, means the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting or terminating a flight." But when we talk about commercial vs non-commercial operations and wet leasing vs dry leasing (having nothing to do with who pays for fuel), it is so tied up to the question of "whose airplane is it?" it gets ridiculously complicated.