night flying and panel lights?

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NoBShere

Pre-takeoff checklist
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NoBShere
So I am a renter that enjoys flying at night. Unfortunately, the panel lights are not always functioning. To date, I have refused to take off without panel lights that worked for the 6 pack, sometimes this has meant turning a post light. I always have a couple flashlights, one with a clip thingy so I don't have to hold it and extra batteries. Just curious, do others view this as overly cautious? Is this normal in rental/trainer aircraft. btw, the club is good about following up on squawks so I don't think we need to hash that part out.

Second part, my wife and I fly somewhere for dinner, its getting dark or is dark when we start heading back. One or two of the panel lights have now stopped working, would you return using the flashlights assuming you can't get the panel lights functioning? This has not happened, at least not yet.

I did poke around the far/aim but didn't find anything specific. If I missed it, thanks for pointing out the part in advance.

Btw, I know i live on the edge since I don't have an AOA nor a red handle.
 
I recently took a couple of night flights. the first time the panel lights didn't work at all, but I had several red led flashlights on hand, only used one that has a head band and I found that very useful and handy. or should I say handy-free.
the second flight the panel lights DID work, but I found the white lites to be more distracting than the red led flashlite I was wearing on my head, so I mostly turned off the panel lights. I guess it could be personal preference, and I know there is a moderate geek-factor wearing a flashlight headband, but it definitely worked for me.
 
My Archer has a red light just above my head that points towards the panel. If my panel lights all fail I can turn that on and still read the instruments, in fact sometimes I do turn off my panel lights and just use the red overhead light because it's easier on the eyes. My panel lights have always been finicky... when I first got the airplane only the navigation instruments lit up(they're on a different switch). I had an avionics guy troubleshoot and bill me for many hours until he found one of the wires had been pinched by the tray on my 430 and was shorting. So now I have all the lights but the dimmer doesn't work right..... it goes from extremely bright to pretty darn bright to off. *sigh* But the red overhead one works great and since I have a couple of light sources in case that goes out I'm fine with it.
 
Red head lamp in my flight bag as a back up, with a second one as backup yp the first (one is clip on for a ball cap, the other is head band style).

The only annoying thing is having to shut my eyes for a sec while I cycle through the white light to get to the red (one switch, dual white and red).
 
Thanks. I thought I might get responses like that. I appreciate the insight.
 
The real answer is what YOU are comfortable with. If you're happy with either the overhead or a flashlight, go for it.
 
The place I use to rent from had 3 C172SP's. Only one of them had working panel lights. If I planned on doing a night flight I would only take that plane.
 
I don't need panel lights. I have a pair of these: http://www.lapolicegear.com/ph-covertfreedom-micro.html in red, mounted on a spring steel wire loop that goes around my head. I don't use the clips; the lights are connected to the loop with an inch or so of annealed #12 copper wire so I can aim them. They illuminate the panel quite nicely and are generally handy inside and outside the airplane. I am sure there are red headlights around that would do something similar, but I like to make things.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Red head lamp in my flight bag as a back up, with a second one as backup yp the first (one is clip on for a ball cap, the other is head band style).

The only annoying thing is having to shut my eyes for a sec while I cycle through the white light to get to the red (one switch, dual white and red).
Click to expand...

+1 for the headlamp. When flying at night, I usually put it on before takeoff and use it quite regularly to read my notes, the checklist or to light up darker / unlit portions of the panel.

We have had good success with inexpensive Energizer headlamps, just make sure to get one with red and white lights and a sliding switch or separate switches, so that you don’t have to cycle through the white setting.
The Energizer Vision HD+ Focus seems to meet these criteria and is currently $19.79 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TOOCBU0/ref=twister_B01EQXJIMC?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
 
Another +1 for head lights. Or those lights built in to the bill of a cap are pretty nice too.

As for color, I read a cockpit lighting research document done for the Air Force a while back. It acknowledged that while red lighting results in improved ability to see dimly illuminated objects outside the aircraft, there are also some drawbacks to red lighting (some things on the charts either disappear in red lighting or are difficult to read.

IIRC, the conclusion was that while red may be better in a controlled environment, unless you're trying to pick out a target on a dark night, you're better off with white lighting which can be dimmed.
 
NoBShere said:
So I am a renter that enjoys flying at night. Unfortunately, the panel lights are not always functioning. To date, I have refused to take off without panel lights that worked for the 6 pack, sometimes this has meant turning a post light. I always have a couple flashlights, one with a clip thingy so I don't have to hold it and extra batteries. Just curious, do others view this as overly cautious? Is this normal in rental/trainer aircraft. btw, the club is good about following up on squawks so I don't think we need to hash that part out.

Second part, my wife and I fly somewhere for dinner, its getting dark or is dark when we start heading back. One or two of the panel lights have now stopped working, would you return using the flashlights assuming you can't get the panel lights functioning? This has not happened, at least not yet.

I did poke around the far/aim but didn't find anything specific. If I missed it, thanks for pointing out the part in advance.

Btw, I know i live on the edge since I don't have an AOA nor a red handle.
Click to expand...

I look at it this way. if the rental company can't take care of the small things like panel lights what big things are they also ignoring or cutting corners on? me? I'd refuse to take the aircraft if the panel lights aren't functional.
 
donjohnston said:
unless you're trying to pick out a target on a dark night, you're better off with white lighting which can be dimmed.
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Isn't that what VFR see and avoid relies upon?
 
rk911 said:
I look at it this way. if the rental company can't take care of the small things like panel lights what big things are they also ignoring or cutting corners on? me? I'd refuse to take the aircraft if the panel lights aren't functional.
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Just curious... if the panel lights are inoperable and lo and behold if you ever got a ramp check at night. Could the FAA inspector ground the airplane? :dunno:
 
azblackbird said:
Just curious... if the panel lights are inoperable and lo and behold if you ever got a ramp check at night. Could the FAA inspector ground the airplane? :dunno:
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If all the angels dancing on the head of a pin fluttered their wings at the same time would your skirt be blown up?
 
NoBShere said:
I always have a couple flashlights, one with a clip thingy so I don't have to hold it and extra batteries. Just curious, do others view this as overly cautious?
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No.

What aircraft type?

NoBShere said:
Second part, my wife and I fly somewhere for dinner, its getting dark or is dark when we start heading back. One or two of the panel lights have now stopped working, would you return using the flashlights assuming you can't get the panel lights functioning?
Click to expand...

Can you see the affected instrument with ambient light from other bulbs?
 
azblackbird said:
Just curious... if the panel lights are inoperable and lo and behold if you ever got a ramp check at night. Could the FAA inspector ground the airplane? :dunno:
Click to expand...
Here's a teachable moment, and the DE on your checkride will ask you. So, go look up the appropriate reg in the FARs and get back to us. Try Part 91, VFR Night, required equipment.
 
rk911 said:
I look at it this way. if the rental company can't take care of the small things like panel lights what big things are they also ignoring or cutting corners on? me? I'd refuse to take the aircraft if the panel lights aren't functional.
Click to expand...

Most low budget operations ONLY worry about the important stuff.
 
Dimmable LED headlamp with red lights. Have a backup too

Honestly I have not consulted the FARS on bad panel lights but I have done plenty of night flying with a red headlamp.
 
murphey said:
Here's a teachable moment, and the DE on your checkride will ask you. So, go look up the appropriate reg in the FARs and get back to us. Try Part 91, VFR Night, required equipment.
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(c)Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

If your panel lights are burnt out or you have no juice going to them, I guess if the FAA inspector was an A-hole, he could violate you on this. :dunno:
 
skier said:
Isn't that what VFR see and avoid relies upon?
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Sorry. I left off a relevant part. What I meant was "unless you're trying to pick out a dimly lit or unlighted target on a dark night". As in a hostile target. One that doesn't want to be seen.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Read 91.205 & 91.213 and make a decision.
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Yeh, those are two of the sections i looked at. I also looked up how they define equipment and instrument. I have no concerns if someone were to consider me overly cautious based upon the decisions I have made to date.
 
All things considered, you might be overly cautious unless you have no lighting of your own on your person or in the glovebox. Are you in the middle of nowhere with no lights for miles and miles on a moonless night? Otherwise you don't really even need panel lights to see your instruments well enough on a VFR flight. Once your eyes fully adjust most instruments are pretty darn readable. Some of your stuff is going to emit light anyway right? But yes, I have 2 headlamps and a pen with an led light for an eraser.
 
azblackbird said:
(c)Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

If your panel lights are burnt out or you have no juice going to them, I guess if the FAA inspector was an A-hole, he could violate you on this. :dunno:
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I remember looking at this when I was going through training and re-read it again when trying to answer my own question. I guess i was just surprised that I couldn't find a requirement to have illumination to allow for the proper use of instruments and equipment let alone specifying whether it be equipped as part of the aircraft or something like a handheld flashlight. As someone else said, I will understand the regs and stick with what I am comfortable with.
 
azblackbird said:
(c)Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

If your panel lights are burnt out or you have no juice going to them, I guess if the FAA inspector was an A-hole, he could violate you on this. :dunno:
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Where does it say the instruments must be lit? Where does it say anything on the panel needs to be lit?
 
Bobanna said:
Or, a gynecologist!
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33c6bea06ff43af4aae6ff5439fcef4e.jpg
 
murphey said:
Where does it say the instruments must be lit? Where does it say anything on the panel needs to be lit?
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(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

Are panel lights considered installed equipment? :dunno:
 
OkieAviator said:
Headlamp- helps with preflight as well and makes you feel like you're a miner!
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Every pilot's dream is to have a job as easy, safe, and high-paying as miner.
 
azblackbird said:
(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

Are panel lights considered installed equipment? :dunno:
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It doesn't matter. Whether they have adequate electrical energy or not, they are not actually required to exist or to be used for flying at night.

FLAPS:
Fuses: a spare set or circuit breakers
Landing light: if carrying passengers for compensation
Anti-collision light
Position lights
Source of electrical power: an adequate one

That's what you need for VFR night flight in addition to day VFR equipment. Interior lighting is purely optional. But a very good idea to have!
 
iamtheari said:
That's what you need for VFR night flight in addition to day VFR equipment. Interior lighting is purely optional. But a very good idea to have!
Click to expand...

This is not always true. It depends on the plane and the the type of flight (VFR/IFR).
 
azblackbird said:
(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

Are panel lights considered installed equipment? :dunno:
Click to expand...

Just says you have to have an adequate source of electrical energy, nothing about functioning or being "on". I think we all agree it is important to be able to see adequately regardless of how you that happens.

The best part of this thread is that now I need a AOA indicator, red handle, and wait for it...a gynecologist when I fly.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
This is not always true. It depends on the plane and the the type of flight (VFR/IFR).
Click to expand...
I was not aware that there are rules requiring interior lighting based on type of airplane. Can you give some examples?
 
The stock 172 panel illumination for night flight is the overhead red flood light. Direct lighting (post, ring, or whatever) is an nice option.
 
I think you just came up with the title for a sweet country song:

Night Flight Panel Light!

As for the argument, use your head a bit, many aircraft have zero electrical system so therefor have zero source of electricity to power panel lights or anything for that matter. They are perfectly legal to fly anytime day or night.
Want to see your panel? Get some radium paint!
 
LRI FMNG Photon Freedom LED Keychain Micro-Light, Night Vision Green Beam https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00180EKAW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glp6ybAPVEV32

I've got this $15 green light clipped on my Rosen visor. Click once and it's on. If you want to dim it down to your liking just hold the button. If you want to focus down on your lap without being in your peripheral vision just snatch off visor and clip near microphone pointed down.

Really hard to beat for $15.
 
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