Unload your G's first...

th
 
I'm in Dallas right now working on the CTP program. Can't wait to get ahold of a Level-D and throw it around a bit. 737-800.

My schedule is hectic, but if anyone wants to try and grab a beer, I'll try to see if I can work it out. Here until Wed, the 11th.

Edit: I didn't watch the entire video. Where's the funny part?
 
737? Who did you get on with? Thought it was a regional.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I'm in Dallas right now working on the CTP program. Can't wait to get ahold of a Level-D and throw it around a bit. 737-800.

My schedule is hectic, but if anyone wants to try and grab a beer, I'll try to see if I can work it out. Here until Wed, the 11th.

Edit: I didn't watch the entire video. Where's the funny part?
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I am in Fort Worth and down for meeting up. Maybe get Brian and the other natives in on it?
 
I was fine until he said go from 1g to 1/2g.

Anyhow notwithstanding lessons of roll rate, this whole thing was one basic thing that people like Colgan pilots apparently missed in modern flight training...the way out of a stall (or near stall) is first to DECREASE AOA. Then you can level the wings, add power, etc...
 
I guess recovery from unusual attitudes with that plane is different and sometimes opposite (?) than what I learned in single PPL training (low time VFR guy here). I learned to level the wings first, then back elevator when the AI is brown. Also to go full power when AI blue (not pull power). I need to wipe that video from my memory banks and make sure my learned instinct stays intact. Newbs: don't watch.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I guess recovery from unusual attitudes with that plane is different and sometimes opposite (?) than what I learned in single PPL training (low time VFR guy here). I learned to level the wings first, then back elevator when the AI is brown. Also to go full power when AI blue (not pull power). I need to wipe that video from my memory banks and make sure my learned instinct stays intact. Newbs: don't watch.
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You don't have thrust that can overpower the elevator, perhaps that jet does? Dunno, guessing. Also, he did tell the guy that only if the nose isn't dropping as expected to reduce thrust. And he is trying not to spill the blue water in the lavatory. ???
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I guess recovery from unusual attitudes with that plane is different and sometimes opposite (?) than what I learned in single PPL training (low time VFR guy here). I learned to level the wings first, then back elevator when the AI is brown. Also to go full power when AI blue (not pull power). I need to wipe that video from my memory banks and make sure my learned instinct stays intact. Newbs: don't watch.
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There's nothing different in the video than what you SHOULD have been learning.

If you're diving, you indeed level the wings before pulling back, other wise you will steepen the spiral. The video doesn't say that. Pulling back INCREASES the wing loading.

If you're at or near a stall your absolute INGRAINED never fail first reaction is to LOWER THE ANGLE OF ATTACK. Nothing else is as important.
Actually the video is a bit hokey, if you're stalled recovering is actually going to increase the wing loading until you're no longer stalled.
 
flyingron said:
There's nothing different in the video than what you SHOULD have been learning.

If you're diving, you indeed level the wings before pulling back, other wise you will steepen the spiral. The video doesn't say that. Pulling back INCREASES the wing loading.

If you're at or near a stall your absolute INGRAINED never fail first reaction is to LOWER THE ANGLE OF ATTACK. Nothing else is as important.
Actually the video is a bit hokey, if you're stalled recovering is actually going to increase the wing loading until you're no longer stalled.
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The vid said different for the dive I think? Maybe I need to watch it again, but I won't cuz I don't want to potentially reflash my RAM when it should actually be ROM, lol.
 
He pushes in the dive to get a better roll rate before pulling up. The key is that you don't want to pull until you have the wings level. I'm not sure I buy his push-in-the-dive approach even in jet, it's unnecessary in a light plane. Even at 4G's it's going to have plenty of roll rate.
 
Well the video appears to conflate several issues--stall recovery vs. unusual attitudes vs. perceived elevator reversal during inverted flight. I don't get treating them as if they are all the same thing.
 
Tomorrow night works for me. Ill be out of class by 4pm.

Sunday evening also works. I have to report for brief at 2130, so a dinner works just fine.

Sunday evening?
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Tomorrow night works for me. Ill be out of class by 4pm.

Sunday evening also works. I have to report for brief at 2130, so a dinner works just fine.

Sunday evening?
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I might be in for that. Set a place and time and post it up
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I guess recovery from unusual attitudes with that plane is different and sometimes opposite (?) than what I learned in single PPL training (low time VFR guy here). I learned to level the wings first, then back elevator when the AI is brown. Also to go full power when AI blue (not pull power). I need to wipe that video from my memory banks and make sure my learned instinct stays intact. Newbs: don't watch.
Click to expand...

Newbs should definitely watch, they should know that there is more than one way to successful flying ops than the way they were taught (there are thousands of valid techniques used daily to accomplish basically the same thing). It shows how much more a young pilot needs to learn. Now, let me explain a bit before everyone fires up the bonfire...

This video is very type-specific training. When you get to larger/faster/more complex airplanes there are differences in pilot techniques and procedures not in basic aerodynamics. When you have 40 or 50 feet of straight wing in a Cessna/Piper/Beech it's aerodynamic properties are much different than when you have 350 feet of flexing/moving Boeing wing that's 150 feet behind the cockpit or 48 feet of swept wing fighter behind you.

In reference to the power - did you listen to what he said about why he said to consider pulling power with the nose high? The engines slung out in front of the wing will cause the nose to push up; having done this exercise in the 767 sim it is noticeable - particularly when you are at very high altitude and low speed where the flight controls have slightly less authority and the engines are designed to be the most efficient.

Aother thing with the stall in big airplanes - other than the yoke shaker you can't really feel that the airplane is stalled (Air France). In a GA airplane you have a lot of feedback saying to stop doing what you are doing whether it's getting slow or pulling too hard into an accelerated stall. It's natural for most people to push a little bit when they encounter a stall in a GA airplane. Really not pushing but relaxing back pressure (that's one good reason most instructors don't want you to trim aft all the way into a stall - you will REALLY have to push to recover). So, that slight relaxing of backstick pressure (along with the trim being set for a higher speed) will cause a decrease in AoA (unless you continue to pull back, then you get the falling leaf situation). With a swept and flexing wing with auto trim functions, pushing to unload slightly is much more effective to affect a quicker roll rate. Big jets can also get into something called a deep stall that you can't really get into with small airplanes. (read up on Air France 447 for more details) If you find yourself in one of those in an airline and you don't push to break the aoa, you will be stalled for the rest of your life.

When we fly BFM (dogfighting) in the F-15 we are constantly in and out of a stalled situation; people often ask me at airshows what the stall speed is - there isn't one. It depends on what you are doing with the jet. I can stall it at 410 kias or I can still have control of all three dimensions down to about 90kias or 2 dimensions down to about 50 kias (hope no one is right below me then!) In some situations even in a powerful machine like an Eagle where you have equal or greater thrust to weight ratio, you can find yourself in a deep stall type of regime; recognizing it is difficult to do for the young guys and to be patient and let the AoA unload is harder still. They have to go from making about 6.9 flight control inputs per second to one (big push) for greater than a second (typically) and it feels like a year!
 
EvilEagle said:
Newbs should definitely watch, they should know that there is more than one way to successful flying ops than the way they were taught (there are thousands of valid techniques used daily to accomplish basically the same thing). It shows how much more a young pilot needs to learn. Now, let me explain a bit before everyone fires up the bonfire...

This video is very type-specific training. When you get to larger/faster/more complex airplanes there are differences in pilot techniques and procedures not in basic aerodynamics. When you have 40 or 50 feet of straight wing in a Cessna/Piper/Beech it's aerodynamic properties are much different than when you have 350 feet of flexing/moving Boeing wing that's 150 feet behind the cockpit or 48 feet of swept wing fighter behind you.

In reference to the power - did you listen to what he said about why he said to consider pulling power with the nose high? The engines slung out in front of the wing will cause the nose to push up; having done this exercise in the 767 sim it is noticeable - particularly when you are at very high altitude and low speed where the flight controls have slightly less authority and the engines are designed to be the most efficient.

Aother thing with the stall in big airplanes - other than the yoke shaker you can't really feel that the airplane is stalled (Air France). In a GA airplane you have a lot of feedback saying to stop doing what you are doing whether it's getting slow or pulling too hard into an accelerated stall. It's natural for most people to push a little bit when they encounter a stall in a GA airplane. Really not pushing but relaxing back pressure (that's one good reason most instructors don't want you to trim aft all the way into a stall - you will REALLY have to push to recover). So, that slight relaxing of backstick pressure (along with the trim being set for a higher speed) will cause a decrease in AoA (unless you continue to pull back, then you get the falling leaf situation). With a swept and flexing wing with auto trim functions, pushing to unload slightly is much more effective to affect a quicker roll rate. Big jets can also get into something called a deep stall that you can't really get into with small airplanes. (read up on Air France 447 for more details) If you find yourself in one of those in an airline and you don't push to break the aoa, you will be stalled for the rest of your life.

When we fly BFM (dogfighting) in the F-15 we are constantly in and out of a stalled situation; people often ask me at airshows what the stall speed is - there isn't one. It depends on what you are doing with the jet. I can stall it at 410 kias or I can still have control of all three dimensions down to about 90kias or 2 dimensions down to about 50 kias (hope no one is right below me then!) In some situations even in a powerful machine like an Eagle where you have equal or greater thrust to weight ratio, you can find yourself in a deep stall type of regime; recognizing it is difficult to do for the young guys and to be patient and let the AoA unload is harder still. They have to go from making about 6.9 flight control inputs per second to one (big push) for greater than a second (typically) and it feels like a year!
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Beautifully said. It seems like a renaissance in GA is about to begin. All Embry Riddle trainers now have AoA indicators. http://alumni.erau.edu/s/867/social...cid=4036&calpgid=61&pgid=252&ecid=3296&crid=0

The circular military pattern is being reviewed. It's about time. Thank you for posting.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
The vid said different for the dive I think? Maybe I need to watch it again, but I won't cuz I don't want to potentially reflash my RAM when it should actually be ROM, lol.
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The confusion is that what you are being taught is when you are in a spiral dive, you level the wings then pull. What the video is showing is when you are in a high G situation, to remove some Gs by pushing before wings level. So, no real conflict in what you are being taught and the video.
 
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