Best aircraft to use for commercial and CFI training?

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
From the perspective of a flight school, what is the most economical aircraft for this type of operation?

Wants:
Good flying qualities for commercial/CFI training
Complex aircraft (requirement for commercial/CFI)
Fuel efficient
Cheap to maintain and insure

Compromises:
Initial purchase price doesn't have to be rock bottom if operating costs are minimized
Doesn't need to be IFR
Doesn't need to be particularly powerful/fast

So far research has led me to a Piper Arrow, but they glide like a brick for power off 180s and can be unforgiving for checkrides.
 
If an Arrow is unforgiving for checkrides, why are they so popular with flight schools? I did my comm in an Arrow and CFI in a Mooney. Both are good, but I'd give the Arrow the edge in mx costs. If I were looking to get a complex trainer, I'd look no further than an Arrow. The other possible choice is a Cessna 172 RG. Not my choice, but some seem to like them.
 
rookie1255 said:
So far research has led me to a Piper Arrow, but they glide like a brick for power off 180s and can be unforgiving for checkrides.
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The Taper-wing Arrow glides better. Even with respect to the straight wing one, I don't agree it's unforgiving for a checkride. The Arrow actually has an advantage for the power-off 180 in that you rarely have to worry about overshooting. I know someone that failed the power-off 180 in a 172RG; I don't know the details but with the Cessna it's a 50/50 game of trying not to undershoot or overshoot.
 
Beechcraft Sierra is probably the best complex trainer I could think of. As a personal airplane there are better options, but for training it's hard to beat. Plenty of power, stupidly robust landing gear, Lot's of room for long hours of comfort in the cockpit, and plenty of panel space.
 
rookie1255 said:
So far research has led me to a Piper Arrow, but they glide like a brick for power off 180s and can be unforgiving for checkrides.
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I wouldn't call an Arrow unforgiving for checkrides. You just need to keep your pattern tight and you'll be fine on the power off 180.

Plus, the Arrow does have one advantage: if you do find yourself coming up slightly short, you can get an inch or so more of flaps with that manual Johnson bar which can make all the difference.
 
dmspilot said:
The Taper-wing Arrow glides better. Even with respect to the straight wing one, I don't agree it's unforgiving for a checkride. The Arrow actually has an advantage for the power-off 180 in that you rarely have to worry about overshooting. I know someone that failed the power-off 180 in a 172RG; I don't know the details but with the Cessna it's a 50/50 game of trying not to undershoot or overshoot.
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Excellent point. Keep the pattern tight and slip as necessary to make your touchdown point and the Arrow will do fine.
 
Agreed on the Arrow. It consistently and reliably glides like ****. Turn towards the runway within 2 seconds of pulling the power or you won't make it. Because of that, in my opinion, it makes the power off 180 easier than a better gliding airplane like a 172 or Archer. Commercial land in an Arrow and then CFI initial in a Lance.
 
dmspilot said:
The Taper-wing Arrow glides better. Even with respect to the straight wing one, I don't agree it's unforgiving for a checkride. The Arrow actually has an advantage for the power-off 180 in that you rarely have to worry about overshooting. I know someone that failed the power-off 180 in a 172RG; I don't know the details but with the Cessna it's a 50/50 game of trying not to undershoot or overshoot.
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With small Cessnas, a factor for a power-off 180 is when to put the gear down.

It takes 12 seconds to cycle a 172RG or 177RG, and during the cycle, the drag is much higher than gear fully extended.

I also can't imagine that a Cessna retract is cost effective compared to an Arrow. Holy **** those things are complex.

The decision point will change dramatically if the FAA ever gets around to changing the "complex" requirement to a "TAA" requirement.
 
rookie1255 said:
So far research has led me to a Piper Arrow, but they glide like a brick for power off 180s and can be unforgiving for checkrides.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't let this dissuade you. The power-off 180 is totally doable in the Arrow.
 
Arrow or 172RG. Waaaaay back in the day I used to teach commercial students in both, and when it comes down to it it's six of one and a half dozen of the other. I think the vast majority of students will train in what's cheapest. Yeah, a hershey bar Arrow doesn't glide all that well, but if it's ten bucks an hour cheaper than the alternatives, nobody is going to care.

Not sure how the MX compares between the two, but there seems to be a much larger selection of Arrows out there to choose from.
 
I bought an Arrow II for a personal plane before I had any certificates in category. I have done every checkride through CFII (minus AMEL) in my airplane, and have about 328 hours in make/model. I would have no second thoughts about using my plane to teach someone in. That said I have literally only flown one C-172 for about 3 hours so I have no useful experience in that type.
 
I always found the arrow a very easy going airplane

PA24 would be another option too
 
rookie1255 said:
From the perspective of a flight school, what is the most economical aircraft for this type of operation?

Wants:
Good flying qualities for commercial/CFI training
Complex aircraft (requirement for commercial/CFI)
Fuel efficient
Cheap to maintain and insure

Compromises:
Initial purchase price doesn't have to be rock bottom if operating costs are minimized
Doesn't need to be IFR
Doesn't need to be particularly powerful/fast

So far research has led me to a Piper Arrow, but they glide like a brick for power off 180s and can be unforgiving for checkrides.
Click to expand...

Cannot beat an Arrow, plus the brick-like glide ration will help with the 180 degree accuracy landings. You won't float past your target like a 172RG might do!
 
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