Crash in Carrollton GA 2 airplanes down, 3 dead.

[SoCal RV Flyer]

That's true, which brings me back to the obvious statement of, even if the CFI and student could see the Bo coming down on top of them (if this is what happened) there might not have been much of a reaction time, if any at all.

Yeah, if the Bo was faster on final and above you, you wouldn't see it...depending on where the sun was relative to the planes, you might have seen a shadow for just an instant...or maybe not at all. Rear 3/4 visibility is not good in a DA-20, and even though they are bubble canopy planes, the top portion is painted for sun protection (at least my trainer was).

With the DA-20's T-tail, the horizontal stab would certainly be very vulnerable in this situation.

 

[LDJones]

I'm not saying it causes a conflict. The Air Safety Institute (AOPA I think) list two ways to enter from the opposite side of the pattern. The way you guys are doing it is preferred. I prefer to use the second method unless there is a lot of traffic in the pattern.

I think a lot of people were doing it for a long time, but saying, "I'm flying over-head and will enter on a teardrop to a 45 for left downwind" is something I didn't start hearing until a few years ago. It was confusing at first. I do think most people at my airport just fly over mid-field and turn into downwind. I understand I need to yield to traffic on a 45 or already on downwind.

Actually, I use the second method 90% of the time since I am alone in the pattern most times. If I'm concerned about conflicting with others in the pattern I'll do the first method to better fit in.

 

[jbrinker]

My instructor and I had nearly this exact same situation almost happen to us a couple months ago at a controlled field. We were cleared to land on 33, and were on final. Only other aircraft in the area was something like a Bo (I don't recall, but it was a faster retract single). We had been cleared to land for a while, and had heard this other pilot talking to ATC, and he was approaching from the west, and cleared for a TnG on 28 (he asked for 28). Since I'm not the controller, I'm really not sure what the heck happened or how they had us sequenced, but we were on short final at about 50' AGL and I hear the tower quite briskly tell the other pilot "N12345 you are cleared for the option on 28.... (pause)" N12345: "Cleared for the option 28 345". Then just as we touch down - Tower: "N12345 GO AROUND GO AROUND" and we see a VERY large, full, visible shadow fly directly over our plane. He was landing on 33, and was just about to run up our ass! Did a go-around right over us and then was sequenced back onto 28 after being vectored all the way around the pattern... I didn't hear what happened after, I just got the hell off at alpha and cleaned out my drawers... We fly a Cherokee, and the other guy was in a low-wing single retract of some sort, and simply did NOT see us (and had the wrong runway!!) He would have probably landed directly on top of us.

 

[Mopauly]

This almost happened to me yesterday - a 172 had just taken off, I called my downwind, base, and final; another 172 was sitting at the hold short line; he made his radio call just as I was on short final. I'm guessing he never heard us nor looked out the window - I immediately piped up that I was short final and he stopped halfway between the hold short line and the runway; had he not I would have been forced into a go around or worse had I been closer to the actual runway.

 

[GLMS_NC]

Word is the Bo was not on ctaf. Was on final and the diamond turned base to final under him.

 

[FastEddieB]

This is even more confusing in my opinion. This could mean you're already over downwind and will be descending directly into it. Now you're on the other side of the airport (traffic pattern side) and you're saying again that you'll descend to a right downwind. Where are you? Descending from where? Straight over downwind, or are you now on a 45 and still descending?

I can only attest that there has been zero confusion from others expressed to me in decades. If they're quietly bewildered I have no way to know that.

As I'm maneuvering, I'll do so as to fit in with traffic already in the pattern, or arriving ahead of me or faster or whatever. Just always seems to work out without drama. But I'll stipulate no method is perfect and without some risk.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

How does an audio traffic alert put your eyes inside? I don't know about you but when I hear a radio call near me, or a TCAS/ADS-B alert, or center has identified traffic my eyes are outside scanning like crazy.

I realize that you don't like the "California Mentality" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean but coming from a Kansan, I certainly appreciate any safety measure that can be brought into the cockpit. And yes, mandating radio use around a Class E airport might be a good place to start.

The California Mentality, the idea that you can regulate and legislate every little situation, is what's killing GA. Make this required, make that required, make this cost more. Trust me, these days, there is 1 airspace type I'm completely comfortable operating in, Class A. Keeps you out of Indian Territory (where the Cherokee, Navajo, Archer, Warrior and other similar types play).

 

[Fearless Tower]

Ah, but how many times has he been around the block, hmm?

A lot less than the Bonanza accident is going to affect its pretty bad year.

 

[Zeldman]

Word is the Bo was not on ctaf. Was on final and the diamond turned base to final under him.

And if all this turns out to be true, the A/C on final had the right of way.

Final result is still the same, 3 people lost their lives tragically.

 

[unsafervguy]

interesting there is all of this speculation of straight ins,no radio use, bad habits and nobody has mentioned that the gentleman in the bo was a retired FAA employee, and long time CAP member, not the usual type to fly like that. maybe there were calls made, maybe the distances were not right, if somebody is calling a 1/2 mile final im not looking for them at 1 1/2 miles. who knows. the fact is both airplanes HAD radios. bad radio habits can be very dangerous too.

bob

 

[Fearless Tower]

interesting there is all of this speculation of straight ins,no radio use, bad habits and nobody has mentioned that the gentleman in the bo was a retired FAA employee, and long time CAP member, not the usual type to fly like that. maybe there were calls made, maybe the distances were not right, if somebody is calling a 1/2 mile final im not looking for them at 1 1/2 miles. who knows. the fact is both airplanes HAD radios. bad radio habits can be very dangerous too.

bob

All it takes is to have the radio dial one digit off and he could have been talking all the way in and no one would have heard him and he would have thought he was all alone in the sky.

It happens to the best of us. We ***** about the
NORDO guy that cut us off in the pattern only to realize we had the freq dialed in wrong.

Crap happens to even the best intentioned people.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

The California Mentality, the idea that you can regulate and legislate every little situation, is what's killing GA.

It's not just California. You should lighten up on the state bashing.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'm told this is the year (40).

Meh...46-47 for me. You may have a few more years. Even then, my distance vision has DROPPED to 20/20. It is the up close stuff that is harder to see. I can still do it well enough, but I wear reading glasses for panel work.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Me thinks the old mans been around the patch more than the young gal.

Doesn't mean he didn't get complacent or wasn't on the wrong channel. My gut is the Bo "ran a stop sign" and rear ended them. Hopefully the NTSB can figure something out. Otherwise it is just opinions... See my post earlier (144, page 4) and quoted below for convience.

I learned that early on. I flew the full pattern and was landing into the wind at an uncontrolled airport, & came face to face with a Bonanza doing an unannounced tailwind takeoff. It was quite a scary event. Once I got on the ground I triple checked myself. (Right runway for the wind, radio was working, confirmed with FBO that they heard me & did not hear the Bonanza on the radio.) Now I pay more attention to taxiing aircraft...

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yes and how well did "see and avoid" work in this accident?? The DA-20 has amazing visibility and it had four eyeballs in it. The Bonanza has average visibility. Are you going to claim that all three pilots were watching TV, mindlessly following the magenta line while fiddling with radios to the touch down point? I am damn sure they were looking out the windows.

See and avoid is very important tool to prevent mid airs, but to claim it is all we really need is absolute bull crap!! It wasn't enough in the '30s, it wasn't enough in the '40s, it wasn't enough in the '50s and it's not enough right up until today.

IMO, use of radios in the traffic pattern should be mandatory and use of all available lighting should be taught and mandatory as well. Enforcement is difficult and likely not going to happen much, but the fear of the possibility of being caught is enough for many pilots to adopt the practice and become compliant. Of course there will always be scoff laws, just as there is now with people flying without licenses, BFRs, IPCs, annuals, or medicals, but many would follow the law and that would be a good help.

How would new regs have helped here? We don't know yet and we may never know, but it couldn't have hurt.

In the big picture whenever people say things like "I don't know if more regulation would have helped but I know it wouldn't have hurt" I get very skeptical. More regulation most likely would have had zero impact on this accident other than you could say at some point someone not only screwed up and died but they were also violated a regulation while in the process of screwing up and becoming dead.

I'm sorry but none of your emotional rant and use of the word crap has convinced this member of the pilot community we need any more help from the regulatory department.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

It's not just California. You should lighten up on the state bashing.

You're right. It's pretty much every state these days. It has become popular to want more rules and government to fix things and no individual responsibility.

 

[mtuomi]

Word is the Bo was not on ctaf. Was on final and the diamond turned base to final under him.

I wonder if they were practicing forced landings or something. They are very close to the threshold for a base-to-final turn on a normal pattern.

 

[Sundancer]

Do we have a real problem here? As in, a lot of mid-airs in the pattern, or on final?

I don't particularly want GA safer - the balance between freedom, flexibility, and onerous regs is as good (or bad) as it needs to be, for my purposes. This one sucks, but then they all do, right? Three people gone, families in pain, brutal fall out for a long time. And a risk they accepted freely. . .

Not advocating charging around NORDO, but this actvity has inherent risks which, at some point, are balanced by the freedom and spontaneous joy of flight. If we aren't running into each other on a regular and frequent basis, if it's a rare and infrequent event, let's keep the reg book and electron store closed, and resist the knee jerk reaction to "do something", via regs or other arm twisting.

If uber safety is your goal, perhaps finding another activity more in line with your personsl sensibilities is a better idea. Vice sucking more of the joy of flying away.

 

[denverpilot]

I was sure glad to have both a radio and a tower today when they told us we'd be number six for the approach then we got a different approach, they circled us once east of the airport after the missed, and then shot us across final to the other side behind a Citation to land on the parallel.

Never saw anything but that one aircraft and we were told we had to have the Citation in sight before we turned to go across final to the parallel. Didn't see any of the other five out there somewhere behind the Citation being vectored into the localizer or any on the localizer behind them.

As far as SA goes, I listen intently to traffic even at towered fields and I couldn't make heads or tails out of what all they had going on. It was a total zoo.

A day to be glad the Local Controller was on his game and was there to keep us all from swapping paint, for sure.

 

[Zeldman]

Doesn't mean he didn't get complacent or wasn't on the wrong channel. My gut is the Bo "ran a stop sign" and rear ended them. Hopefully the NTSB can figure something out. Otherwise it is just opinions... See my post earlier (144, page 4) and quoted below for convience.

The plane on final had the right of way. But yes, see and avoid is both pilots responsibility. Complacency may have contributed to this accident, but we will probably never know.

Another thought.....Too many times I hear the phrase, "Any other traffic please advise". When I hear that phrase, and no one says anything, the offender too many times accepts as fact that there is no other traffic around and stops looking. Not saying that happened here.

I will admit, last week I went into a village, dutifully made my position calls, landed and taxied in. After unloading and loading, I started up, flipped the frequency to the AWOS, listened, flipped the flip/flop back to the CTAF, and noticed I missed it by one digit. I have more than 10k hours and should have caught that mistake.

 

[Criitter7]

This almost happened to me yesterday - a 172 had just taken off, I called my downwind, base, and final; another 172 was sitting at the hold short line; he made his radio call just as I was on short final. I'm guessing he never heard us nor looked out the window - I immediately piped up that I was short final and he stopped halfway between the hold short line and the runway; had he not I would have been forced into a go around or worse had I been closer to the actual runway.

I did this by accident a few weeks ago. This is how I found out the radio was dead in the plane i was flying. I changed radios and caught the tail end of an arrow pilot chewing my ass out lol

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Doesn't mean he didn't get complacent or wasn't on the wrong channel. My gut is the Bo "ran a stop sign" and rear ended them. Hopefully the NTSB can figure something out. Otherwise it is just opinions... See my post earlier (144, page 4) and quoted below for convience.

so....what are the right of way rules for landing? Those flying a nice square pattern?

 

[Mike Smith]

Edit....sometimes I should wait longer before I hit "post", I would have to edit/delete fewer posts then. Once again, a POA thread has quickly devolved into a "who is smarter" test. My condolences to those affected by this accident.

 

[mscard88]

I'm sorry but none of your emotional rant and use of the word crap has convinced this member of the pilot community we need any more help from the regulatory department.

Yup, couldn't agree more. That's why I didn't reply to that rant, directed at me. Glad you did.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I think (hope?) we all realize this is the Internet and we can all freely share opinions, speculate, criticize, offer solutions, etc. I have no problem at all with that.

But I come from the world of incident investigation (chemical industry). The reason we do the investigations is to see if there was something in the cause-effect chain that could have been avoided thereby preventing the incident...that's how you come up with corrective/preventive actions.

Taken to the extreme, one of the causes of the incident (the effect being "crashing") was simply "flying". To prevent it, one could stop flying (the corrective action). Ridiculous, for sure, at least to those of us here on POA...but maybe not so ridiculous for others.

Then there is the other extreme that when its your time, it's your time.

And so on through the investigation you come up with potential corrective actions, and pick the ones that are reasonable and cost effective (hopefully!!).

Somewhere in between there come regulators, legislators, lawyers, the regulated community, and the spectators, all having some influence in the process (dammit) making it "un-robotic" as I like to say (or more qualitative than quantitative, touchy-feely).

So where the heck am I going with all this? I do cause-mapping in my sleep, live and breath the stuff. Seen and read enough in my very early piloting life that whether or not NORDO was a cause of THIS accident, there have been enough other "near misses" (don't get me started on that term) discussed and experienced by me personally in just a very short piloting life that there ought to be a solution around that. I don't think it's economically feasible, so maybe very unrealistic, but I would love it if my radio emitted a buzzer when I hit PTT and I was off-frequency or inop (maybe not even technically possible). That would remove one link in the cause-effect chain.

Condolences and prayers for the grief stricken.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

My fancy radios tell me what frequency Im on, I always double check and look for Kxxx CTAF after swapping it in.

 

[mscard88]

I'm wondering now if the DA was doing a simulated forced landing and all their attention was on making the runway and they didn't see the Bo?

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

So the fancier radios actually show an airport name and CTAF, AWOS, TWR, etc.? Did not know that.

But do you actually know if those fancy rads are actually transmitting?

 

[N747JB]

So the fancier radios actually show an airport name and CTAF, AWOS, TWR, etc.? Did not know that.

But do you actually know if those fancy rads are actually transmitting?

I was flying home from Canada after a stop in Cleveland to clear customs, it was LATE, when I noticed that the radios were awfully quiet, even a 10 PM. I tried to contact the center, no response, I kept messing with plugs and cables until I realized that my 3 year old had stepped on the cable for the hand mic and pulled it out just a little bit. Apparently that's all it took to keep me in radio silence for way too long!! It's not always as easy as being on the right freq, because I was, everything has to be plugged in and working!

 

[iamtheari]

So the fancier radios actually show an airport name and CTAF, AWOS, TWR, etc.? Did not know that.

But do you actually know if those fancy rads are actually transmitting?

Some fancier nav/comm radios do. Newer GPS/nav/comm radios definitely do. I flew behind a GTN 650 and it told you what the frequency meant. I believe it had a XMIT or other indicator on the screen when you were talking and RCV or something when it was receiving a transmission. I know that the GNS 430 I fly behind now has both of those indications, although you're on your own for making sure the frequency you are on is the right one.

 

[denverpilot]

My fancy radios tell me what frequency Im on, I always double check and look for Kxxx CTAF after swapping it in.

So the fancier radios actually show an airport name and CTAF, AWOS, TWR, etc.? Did not know that.

But do you actually know if those fancy rads are actually transmitting?

Yep. I'm so not used to that yet... Instructor keeps chuckling when I look up the ILS frequency and check it anyway when the Garmin 430 has already put it in the Nav standby slot, after selecting the approach at the airport.

I wonder how many people don't even check anymore. He trusts it a lot more than I do.

Probably cause and effect from being the guy staring at a million dollar IT system that's broken and figuring out it was a typo from a developer who's sleeping comfortably at home in bed that brought the whole thing down.

 

[Zeldman]

My fancy radios tell me what frequency Im on, I always double check and look for Kxxx CTAF after swapping it in.

Just like the am/fm receiver identifies the station in my 10 year old GMC...

I have flown a plane that did that. It made it really easy to tell when on the correct frequency.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The plane on final had the right of way. But yes, see and avoid is both pilots responsibility.

This brings to mind something that is rarely mentioned, but is true nonetheless: Visibility in most GA planes is lousy. Spotting traffic can be a real challenge, especially coming from the right rear and above, which it sounds like where the Bo was coming from.

It was one of the things I immediately fell in love with in our RV-8. The bubble canopy gives me a panoramic view of the pattern that is hard to beat. I'd like to think that I would be able to see and avoid the sort of traffic conflict that resulted in this tragedy.

Of course, if I was the Bo's assumed position, I still couldn't see down and to the left...

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

I was flying home from Canada after a stop in Cleveland to clear customs, it was LATE, when I noticed that the radios were awfully quiet, even a 10 PM. I tried to contact the center, no response, I kept messing with plugs and cables until I realized that my 3 year old had stepped on the cable for the hand mic and pulled it out just a little bit. Apparently that's all it took to keep me in radio silence for way too long!! It's not always as easy as being on the right freq, because I was, everything has to be plugged in and working!

A good lesson! Locations of the headset jacks on Experimentals vary a lot, because it's at builder's discretion. Some like to put them on the crossbar behind the seats, others, far back on the armrest, most of the time in an effort to get the cables out of the way. But most put them in a fairly standard location, the bottom outboard corners of the panel. Reason? The first thing you do with lost comm is to check those headset plugs. They need to be immediately accessible.

 

[N747JB]

A good lesson! Locations of the headset jacks on Experimentals vary a lot, because it's at builder's discretion. Some like to put them on the crossbar behind the seats, others, far back on the armrest, most of the time in an effort to get the cables out of the way. But most put them in a fairly standard location, the bottom outboard corners of the panel. Reason? The first thing you do with lost comm is to check those headset plugs. They need to be immediately accessible.

This was the hand mic below the throttle quadrant, so I wasn't even using it! Crazy stuff!

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

This was the hand mic below the throttle quadrant, so I wasn't even using it! Crazy stuff!

Yeah, that certainly made it harder to diagnose. Well played, sir!

 

[mscard88]

I look up the ILS frequency and check it anyway when the Garmin 430 has already put it in the Nav standby slot, after selecting the approach at the airport.

I wonder how many people don't even check anymore. He trusts it a lot more than I do.

.

Yup when I flew the CRJ700/900 FOs would chuckle when I'd ID the Loc freq even though the ID was displayed. Old habits plus a good one to keep IMO. Never could get a straight official answer from our training department on it either.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

so....what are the right of way rules for landing? Those flying a nice square pattern?

Always give way to Mr. Magoo. He is clueless of what is going on around him and thinks he is right. He will never see you anyway, so why bother getting upset at him for playing stupid games with his own, and others, lives.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

The plane on final had the right of way. But yes, see and avoid is both pilots responsibility. Complacency may have contributed to this accident, but we will probably never know.
...

Sounds like the best thing I can do while flying is line up on the runway 5-50 miles out & call final. Then everyone has to get out of my way and I can just Mr. Magoo it right in without worrying.

 

[mscard88]

so....what are the right of way rules for landing? Those flying a nice square pattern?

Sec. 91.113

Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.


(a) Inapplicability. This section does not apply to the operation of an aircraft on water.
(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
(c) In distress. An aircraft in distress has the right-of-way over all other air traffic.
(d) Converging. When aircraft of the same category are converging at approximately the same altitude (except head-on, or nearly so), the aircraft to the other's right has the right-of-way. If the aircraft are of different categories--
(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;
[(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.
(3) An airship has the right-of-way over a powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft.]
However, an aircraft towing or refueling other aircraft has the right-of-way over all other engine-driven aircraft.
(e) Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
(f) Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to
make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake
that aircraft