Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?

It's obvious that you both care and take personal insult in what I posted since you resorted to the amateurish deflection tactic of trying to insinuate that I have no life...

I would like to make it clear that I, for one, do not support that insinuation.
 
You do actually. CAP government funding all comes directly from Congress.

Without getting into the crazy details of how to set up a lobby, or a massive letter writing campaign, and assuming Congress even pays attention to such things below at least millions of letters...

You supposedly do have a voice in it.

To lament the state of how "representative" 500 or so people can really be of a nation of closing on 400 million, or how best to influence that mess, is best left for a political website. But if you have a way of organizing the opponents to spending money on it, you do have input on it.

All it takes in theory, is more warm bodiesthst don't want it spent, than want it spent, that way.

Cautionary tale: Unintended consequences lie here. The mandate for inland SAR would still fall legally to USAF and nobody is going to remove that requirement without a better solution. And I bet their solution if you close down CAP would be a LOT more expensive. But fire up the new Anti-CAP SuperDuperPAC and find out, if you like. A USAF general may just kiss you for it.

Maybe they'd decide to privatize it and we could start a bid for the "PoA SAR Team" to rise and take it all over nationwide. Do that and a few of us could get very rich, especially if we can get the whole thing bid as Cost Plus! Woooot! Steak dinner at Ruth's Chris for all mission pilots after landing for the day, sounds like a reasonable thing to put in the bid, doesn't it?

And psssh on G1000 182s. Let's get something way better for the job. Many somethings. With way more expensive toys on board installed by Sierra Nevada Corp. They'll help us lobby. They love those kinds of contracts!

The state of Montana HATES the CAP and their ineffective methods....

So much so they detest them even flying in their state... In fact there is not any CAP activities there... And Montana has their own search and rescue operations... And do a DAMN good job of it....
 
EXACTLY....

The Cappies always forget ( or want to downplay) .. ALL CAP planes belong to EVERY taxpaying citizen of the United States and get mad when someone dares to take a picture of it, or comments about their activities without their permission.....

The ultimate show of arrogance.......:mad::mad::mad:

I know plenty that don't care if you take a photo or comment. I didn't. Came from seeing the total mess of a training system still produce lifesaving awards from time to time.

Someone whining that someone was out keeping current in the G1000 and stopped for lunch? Totally ignored. G1000 regularly kicks people in the head. It's not a particularly great or intuitive system.

But some senator made a deal and got a bunch of them and it was the gear we had. Same thing with the silly-UI FM radios that I spent more time with than the G1000. Someone needed a radio that met the type cert and FAA requirements and that was the box they found.

Not a lot of competition in that market specialty. So we had to teach non-radio folks how to deal with a radio that had "banks" still and other stupid UI stuff that only served to confuse crews. Motorola RF sections stuffed in a box with a horrible two line display driven by a telephone keypad and a couple of switches. Not intended to resemble anything near state-of-the-art in Public Safety radio gear, but the only thing approved by FAA to stuff in the airplane under the STC and standard 337 for the airplanes.

Wouldn't be my first choice for radio system for the missions. But also now a standard that had to hold across aircraft in the fleet for training purposes.

If I had my way, CAP would flip the bird to APCO and P-25 and install DMR gear. 1/6th the price, better performance, and leave interop stuff on analog. Then trunk the thing either locally, regionally, or nationality with a C-Bridge.

Not gonna happen. But it's nice to dream of links and trunking without paying Motorola millions... for servers and software.

It was outdated the day they bought it all. But the budget was what it was and Moto made a killer deal on stuff that hadn't sold yet that was sitting it warehouses. Or so I hear. DMR was also in its infancy, but TETRA wasn't. Europe was way ahead of the US on that style of gear. But TETRA has that "not invented here" problem in the US.
 
The state of Montana HATES the CAP and their ineffective methods....

So much so they detest them even flying in their state... In fact there is not any CAP activities there... And Montana has their own search and rescue operations... And do a DAMN good job of it....

Oh, really?

Here is a list of CAP activities in Montana:

http://mtwg.cap.gov/Calendar.html

Do not post misinformation.
 
The state of Montana HATES the CAP and their ineffective methods....

So much so they detest them even flying in their state... In fact there is not any CAP activities there... And Montana has their own search and rescue operations... And do a DAMN good job of it....

Hey, good for them. I don't care.

Paid, Volunteer? Everyone covered by insurance if volunteer? Liability limiting laws from the legislature I hope? All sorts of details.

If they have it working for them, great. What's the cost in the State budget? Only ask out of curiosity.

Colorado runs CAP as a "split hat" organization and pays some of CAP activity through the Goveror's office and manages it under the top brass of the Guard here. Works well for missions not "traditionally" CAP, like monitoring for and after forest fires start. State guy says he can't possibly get that any cheaper considering all-volunteer crews and ground labor. He's tried.

It's all very location specific. In most States but not all, Sheriffs have the final say on whether to engage Air resources for pretty much anything. Here, they have the final say but they have to go request State funding if they want to say "go" but don't want to pay for it. Every State is a little different... Have to read their laws and procedures...
 
I know plenty that don't care if you take a photo or comment. I didn't. Came from seeing the total mess of a training system still produce lifesaving awards from time to time.

Someone whining that someone was out keeping current in the G1000 and stopped for lunch? Totally ignored. G1000 regularly kicks people in the head. It's not a particularly great or intuitive system.

But some senator made a deal and got a bunch of them and it was the gear we had. Same thing with the silly-UI FM radios that I spent more time with than the G1000. Someone needed a radio that met the type cert and FAA requirements and that was the box they found.

Not a lot of competition in that market specialty. So we had to teach non-radio folks how to deal with a radio that had "banks" still and other stupid UI stuff that only served to confuse crews. Motorola RF sections stuffed in a box with a horrible two line display driven by a telephone keypad and a couple of switches. Not intended to resemble anything near state-of-the-art in Public Safety radio gear, but the only thing approved by FAA to stuff in the airplane under the STC and standard 337 for the airplanes.

Wouldn't be my first choice for radio system for the missions. But also now a standard that had to hold across aircraft in the fleet for training purposes.

If I had my way, CAP would flip the bird to APCO and P-25 and install DMR gear. 1/6th the price, better performance, and leave interop stuff on analog. Then trunk the thing either locally, regionally, or nationality with a C-Bridge.

Not gonna happen. But it's nice to dream of links and trunking without paying Motorola millions... for servers and software.

It was outdated the day they bought it all. But the budget was what it was and Moto made a killer deal on stuff that hadn't sold yet that was sitting it warehouses. Or so I hear. DMR was also in its infancy, but TETRA wasn't. Europe was way ahead of the US on that style of gear. But TETRA has that "not invented here" problem in the US.

Don't even get me started on the (state of the art FLIR systems Wyoming has mounted on their planes) while bragging how much it improves their mission....

Hundreds of hours of training.... and the CRAP has not produced even ONE find.......

But... DHS wants them installed for potential terrorist monitoring.....

It is a VERY expensive and wasteful spending mission........
 
Joined after looking at it for a long while.

Basically you get to deal with folks that want to play airforce, they ARE NOT INTO FLYING as much as what uniform to wear and SOPs, OPSEC and every other acronym they can think of.

Kinda a secret squill club if you ask me, after being a volunteer fire fighter, medic, etc these guys arnt into helping people as much as being part of a lil dorky club.


You want to make a difference, or have something more worthwhile then the $100 burger club, look into angel flight.

Ugh. That sounds unappealing. Personally, I love the idea of being involved in SAR operations, but playing with the image-chasing weekend warrior type doesn't really appeal to me. I'm a career LE guy, and I see enough of the wanna-be bad asses in my line of work. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of being a part time volunteer... I just don't like the folks who do it solely for an ego boost.
 
Smoke and mirrors to save face......

Please post the last find CAP had in Montana...

When your statement was proven false, you moved the goal posts.

And why would you expect them to have finds when you said yourself that the State of Montana is not tasking them to do SAR in the state???
 
I'm feeling a little defensive, only because I have been an active member, and 80% of the people I know in the organization are great people, and are using the program to give back to the community. As far as the USAF budget is concerned, CAP is a very minor portion of that. On the order of tens of thousands of dollars, not hundreds, or even millions I believe (I could very well be wrong but this is what my little research has shown). Members all pay annual dues, and furnish a lot of their own supplies. The main goal, as far as I'm concerned, is similar to the Boy Scouts but with aviation. We want to encourage, and mentor young people in the community, and expose them to aviation. We do conduct missions for the state, and the Air Force, but not all flights are 100% paid for. Most of the time a member will pay out of their own pocket to rent the plane, and pay for fuel. I'm not trying to insult anyone on this board. I just have always had a positive CAP experience, and want to help everyone understand that there is a lot of good in the organization.
 
When your statement was proven false, you moved the goal posts.

And why would you expect them to have finds when you said yourself that the State of Montana is not tasking them to do SAR in the state???


I did scroll down... Still didn't see ANY CAP finds..????????????
 
Ugh. That sounds unappealing. Personally, I love the idea of being involved in SAR operations, but playing with the image-chasing weekend warrior type doesn't really appeal to me. I'm a career LE guy, and I see enough of the wanna-be bad asses in my line of work. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the idea of being a part time volunteer... I just don't like the folks who do it solely for an ego boost.

Imagine if your local volunteer FD had to be operated underneath a national organization... that's pretty much how to see where it gets to be quite a big mess, overall. Not standards, but actual OPERATIONS dictated from a national source.

Now imagine all their gear also has to be standardized and bought at a national level.

And has to be programmed and configured identically.

You start to get a feel for how difficult the problem is thinking about it that way.

Imagine a wildland fire heavy area, handed a "standard" pumper truck and told "that's what we use so training can all be the same nationwide"... all the radio channels are pre-chosen, gear is whatever you got when it arrived and no substitutions, stuff like that.

I don't bash the organization much -- there ARE good people working inside of it. It's just very very difficult to do it well, let alone right, in conditions like the above.

Frankly, in some areas, CAP *needs* a freakin' Blackhawk helo to do the job right. In others, a steam gauge 172 will suffice. Etc.
 
I... The main goal, as far as I'm concerned, is similar to the Boy Scouts but with aviation. We want to encourage, and mentor young people in the community, and expose them to aviation...

Please, how many hours does a cadet log? What percentage get their PPL through the CAP and at what expense?

You want to get kids into aviation have them do ground crew at a glider club, have them pack parachutes at a drop zone, have them join a EAA chapter, all those things are WAAY more likely to result in, well some results for the young ones.
 
Taking a picture an insinuating without any evidence whatsoever that something untoward is going on is an insult to every thinking person.

You really think someone in a CAP flight suit should not be allowed to eat?

Go F yourself.

Nothing to insinuate, these are CAP planes with CAP pilots flying in and eating at a restaurant, I find comedy in that labeling it as 'Operation Burrito' (Which clearly I made up). Whether or not this is legitimate CAP business I have no idea and clearly stated such. As for the flight suit, I don't think they should wear them in the first place... but they defiantly need to eat lunch, not eating might pose a safety risk.... and if they crash who is going to look for them!
 
I did scroll down... Still didn't see ANY CAP finds..????????????
Heck, about 10 posts ago you couldn't even find any CAP activities in Montana without help.

Nauga,
with both hands and a map
 
Nothing to insinuate, these are CAP planes with CAP pilots flying in and eating at a restaurant, I find comedy in that labeling it as 'Operation Burrito' (Which clearly I made up). Whether or not this is legitimate CAP business I have no idea and clearly stated such. As for the flight suit, I don't think they should wear them in the first place... but they defiantly need to eat lunch, not eating might pose a safety risk.... and if they crash who is going to look for them!

I was aircrew to move an airplane to Camp Guernsey once for the Wyoming kids to use it for an exercise. I think I still have permanent intestinal damage from eating Army fish sticks for lunch, while waiting to take the Colorado airplane back to Colorado that night. :eek::eek::eek:o_Oo_Oo_O
 
Heck, about 10 posts ago you couldn't even find any CAP activities in Montana without help.

Nauga,
with both hands and a map
Heck, about 10 posts ago you couldn't even find any CAP activities in Montana without help.

Nauga,
with both hands and a map

Oh.... The state CANNOT deny them to exist in the state.... They just refuse them to be in the air while Montana does the actual aerial search...

That explains my "smoke and mirrors" comment''''
 
Each cadet gets a little over 10 hours over the course of their membership. Five in a 182/172, and five in a glider. They also have access to nations activities that provide more flight time, and exposure to aviation. I don't know the percentage that get their private through it, but am I wrong for believing that anything that gets kids in the air, and around planes is good?
 
Still waiting for you Cappies to post a legimate CAP find in Montana......
 
Please, how many hours does a cadet log? What percentage get their PPL through the CAP and at what expense?

Why are you using that as a criterion? What percentage of the EAA's Young Eagles get their PPL through EAA? Is there some reason why getting kids interested in aviation should only count if the organization provides their pilot training?

You want to get kids into aviation have them do ground crew at a glider club, have them pack parachutes at a drop zone, have them join a EAA chapter, all those things are WAAY more likely to result in, well some results for the young ones.

I doubt that either you or I have statistics to determine whether that is true.
 
That explains my "smoke and mirrors" comment''''
Oh, I thought that was in reference to your deflection of the lists of activities you said didn't exist.

Nauga,
who is not in the CAP but does have a sense of smell
 
Still waiting for you Cappies to post a legimate CAP find in Montana......

Still waiting for you to explain how that could possibly happen when they are not tasked with SAR in Montana. :rolleyes:
 
Imagine if your local volunteer FD had to be operated underneath a national organization... that's pretty much how to see where it gets to be quite a big mess, overall. Not standards, but actual OPERATIONS dictated from a national source.

Now imagine all their gear also has to be standardized and bought at a national level.

And has to be programmed and configured identically.

You start to get a feel for how difficult the problem is thinking about it that way.

Imagine a wildland fire heavy area, handed a "standard" pumper truck and told "that's what we use so training can all be the same nationwide"... all the radio channels are pre-chosen, gear is whatever you got when it arrived and no substitutions, stuff like that.

I don't bash the organization much -- there ARE good people working inside of it. It's just very very difficult to do it well, let alone right, in conditions like the above.

Frankly, in some areas, CAP *needs* a freakin' Blackhawk helo to do the job right. In others, a steam gauge 172 will suffice. Etc.


Yeah, unfortunately I have to admit that I understand the bureaucracy better than you might imagine. Though I've never been through it with CAP, I have attended NIMS classes for my job, and I have watched BIG government complicate some seemingly simple tasks in the past. In many ways, public safety functions much like a cruise ship: it goes straight pretty easily, but doesn't turn very well.

I can't say anything positive or negative about the CAP, as I've never been involved with them. I love the idea of being involved in airborne search and rescue missions (regardless of accruing flying hours), but some of the other stuff people have said about the organization really makes me wonder...
 
Still waiting for you to explain how that could possibly happen when they are not tasked with SAR in Montana. :rolleyes:

Oh.....
They can do ground searches..... Maybe......
Oh, I thought that was in reference to your deflection of the lists of activities you said didn't exist.

Nauga,
who is not in the CAP but does have a sense of smell

I didn't say " aviation activities".... My bad...
 
Still waiting for you Cappies to post a legimate CAP find in Montana......

Kinda a stupid request, per your own admission, Ben. If the State isn't using them, they could have a million members standing by to do things, and they'd never have a "find", if they don't get called.

There's States like that. It really doesn't say much, other than proof that "someone" in that State's chain of command, often far back in the ancient dead past, got a hair up their butt or had a personal issue with someone, and decided to do something "their way". And it stuck, due to bureaucracy and habit.

Nearly 20 years ago, Wyoming used to be a total biotch to get a Sheriff on the phone after about 10PM at night, too... couldn't even roll folks in personal vehicles to go look for ELTs at airports back then, when nobody could get the (sleepy, drunk,, still at the bar kissing babies or strippers, whatever...) Sheriff to answer their home phone, because Wyoming gives all authority to start a mission to the Sheriff. (Some Sheriffs had formal delegation of the approval process to Undersheriffs or specially approved Deputies, some didn't.)

Cell phones and loud ringtones, fixed that. Mostly. Quite a long time ago.

Heck, back in those days you could even sic the duty watch folks at AFRCC on every land line anyone knew to call for a Wyoming Sheriff, and still not find them. Maybe get a few "answering machines"... remember those? ;)

It's one of the reasons Colorado had Sheriffs agree to allow the State to start missions back then, as long as it was on the national or State dime... Sheriff would take over (in the days before "Incident Command" concepts were even a twinkle in a Forestry Service guy's eyes... and WAY before FEMA picked it up from them and made it commonplace in Public Safety) when he woke up and talked to his dispatch office in the morning, or someone drove over and found him.

I've been watching the local (meaning CO and surrounding States, but not Montana) governmental and bureaucratic "silliness" surrounding how SAR gets launched, funded, and managed at the State level for a loooooong time. Your story about Montana is kinda... meh. So somebody long ago decided to essentially disenfranchise a group of volunteers... oh well. Big... sleepy... yawny... MEH. :cool:
 
... but some of the other stuff people have said about the organization really makes me wonder...

You do have to look at who said those things, and whether or not they a) tried it, b) got past a very basic level, c) joined a particularly moronic squadron, d) etc.

There's a post WAAAAAAY ^^^ UP ^^^ THERE somewhere that I made that basically says, "You have to go try it out for yourself." Most folks who've had both good AND bad experiences AS MEMBERS, have generally agreed with it. Especially if they stuck it out long enough to switch away from (or accidentally stumbled INTO) a squadron with squadron level problems.

It'd be like joining a bad volunteer firehouse inside a particular district... you just know somebody's gonna get killed, and you back away slowly...

Only costs national, wing, and squadron dues (sometimes none of the latter two, depending on where you are) to go find out. If you find total doofuses or douchebags... see the "back away slowly" part...

CAP "here" is not CAP "there" is not CAP "over there", as much as they want folks to think that in their marketing materials. It just can't be.
 
Oh.... The state CANNOT deny them to exist in the state.... They just refuse them to be in the air while Montana does the actual aerial search...

That explains my "smoke and mirrors" comment''''

I'm having trouble understanding why you apparently expect nationwide perfection from a volunteer organization.

I recently learned that there used to be some counties in California that wanted nothing to do with CAP, due to attitudes of SOME volunteers in those counties. Thanks to the efforts of a former squadron commander who has since advanced to a position of responsibility in California Wing, that has been cleared up, so that we reportedly have good working relationships with all California counties.

There have certainly been and no doubt still are problems in the organization, but to use that to say that the organization as a whole is worthless is a huge exaggeration.
 
Kinda a stupid request, per your own admission, Ben. If the State isn't using them, they could have a million members standing by to do things, and they'd never have a "find", if they don't get called.

There's States like that. It really doesn't say much, other than proof that "someone" in that State's chain of command, often far back in the ancient dead past, got a hair up their butt or had a personal issue with someone, and decided to do something "their way". And it stuck, due to bureaucracy and habit.

Nearly 20 years ago, Wyoming used to be a total biotch to get a Sheriff on the phone after about 10PM at night, too... couldn't even roll folks in personal vehicles to go look for ELTs at airports back then, when nobody could get the (sleepy, drunk,, still at the bar kissing babies or strippers, whatever...) Sheriff to answer their home phone, because Wyoming gives all authority to start a mission to the Sheriff. (Some Sheriffs had formal delegation of the approval process to Undersheriffs or specially approved Deputies, some didn't.)

Cell phones and loud ringtones, fixed that. Mostly. Quite a long time ago.

Heck, back in those days you could even sic the duty watch folks at AFRCC on every land line anyone knew to call for a Wyoming Sheriff, and still not find them. Maybe get a few "answering machines"... remember those? ;)

It's one of the reasons Colorado had Sheriffs agree to allow the State to start missions back then, as long as it was on the national or State dime... Sheriff would take over (in the days before "Incident Command" concepts were even a twinkle in a Forestry Service guy's eyes... and WAY before FEMA picked it up from them and made it commonplace in Public Safety) when he woke up and talked to his dispatch office in the morning, or someone drove over and found him.

I've been watching the local (meaning CO and surrounding States, but not Montana) governmental and bureaucratic "silliness" surrounding how SAR gets launched, funded, and managed at the State level for a loooooong time. Your story about Montana is kinda... meh. So somebody long ago decided to essentially disenfranchise a group of volunteers... oh well. Big... sleepy... yawny... MEH. :cool:

Good feedback Nate....

For the years I was in the Wyoming CAP... it was ALWAYS beat into our heads at every meeting... "DON'T GO INTO MONTANA AS THEY HATE US".


I also agree on the cooperation of S&R agencies and the internal politics.....

But....

Just look at the Montana CAP top heavy administration...

MTWG ROSTER Update 10/2015
WING COMMAND AND GENERAL STAFF

Ball Rob Capt Dir. of Information Technology (IT) & Webmaster rball@montana.com;
Brainerd Greg 1st Lt O-Flight Coordinator (DOF) cap@brainerds.com;
Burbach Thor Capt Aircraft Maintenance Officer (LGM) thorburbach1@gmail.com;
Burns Bob Lt Col Asst. Emergency Services Officer (DOSA) rburns41@bresnan.net;
Carlson Kim 2nd Lt Director of Personnel (DP) kimrcarlson@gmail.com;
Carlson Matthew TSgt Transportation Officer (LGT) matthew.l.carlson@outlook.com;
Conner John Capt Director of Logistics (LG) john.conner.6@us.af.mil;
Conner Teresa Wing Administrator (WA) MTWG.WA@gmail.com;
Fantino Frank Lt Col Inspector General (IG) ig@mtwg-cap.us;
Furniss Dave Capt Director of Safety (SE) dave.furniss@mtwg-cap.us;
Furniss Laura Capt Critical Incident Stress Officer (CIS) laura.furniss@mtwg-cap.us;
Gibson Seth 2nd Lt Search and Rescue Officer (SAR) s5gibso@gmail.com
Gilchrist Spencer Maj Director of Communications (DC) spencer.gilchrist@mtwg-cap.us;
Good Ken Capt Asst. Aircraft Maintenance Officer (LGMA) abbygd@gmail.com;
Graf Pete Lt Col Deputy Chief of Staff - Operations (DO) grafpeter@q.com;
Graf Pete Lt Col Stan/Eval Officer (DOV)
Heizer Steven Capt Director of Administration (DA) steven.heizer@gmail.com;
Kurdy Ed Capt Supply Officer (LGS) edwardkurdy@gmail.com;
Lariviere Dana Capt Director of Plans and Programs (XP) smilee761@gmail.com;
Larson David 1st Lt Drug Demand Reduction Administrator (DDR) dlarson@larsoninvestigations.com;
LeVasseur Paul 2d Lt Homeland Security Officer (DOH) gomopar440@yahoo.com;
McKelvey Debra Capt Director of Finance (FM) dmckelvey7@gmail.com;
Metzger Shelly Lt Col Asst. Inspector General (IGA) smetzger@hotmail.com;
Munson Paul Capt External Aerospace Education munsonpj@gmail.com
Nash Al Lt Col Director of Public Affairs (PA)
Nash Al Lt Col Vice Commander (CV) al.nash@mtwg-cap.us;
Quatman Jack Lt Col Legal Officer (JA) quatmanlaw@gmail.com;
Radcliffe Bob Col Counterdrug Officer (DOC) radblr@hotmail.com;
Reutemann III John Ch Lt Col Chaplain (HC) & Director of Cadet Programs (CP) john.reutemann@mtwg-cap.us;
Reynolds Tom Lt Col Director of Aerospace Education (AE) & Internal AE tomreynoldscap@outlook.com
Rickard Maureen Capt Recruiting & Retention Officer (RRO) maureenrickard38@gmail.com;
Schneller Bob Capt Emergency Services Officer (DOS) cappilot@charter.net;
Semple Karen Lt Col Asst Inspector General (IGA) ksemple@mtwg-cap.us;
Statum Chuck Lt Col Dir. of Professional Development (PD) & Testing Officer chuck49@bresnan.net;
Teel Nolan Col Wing Commander (CC) nolanteel@hotmail.com
Walsh Patrick Lt Col Asst. IG - Complaints/Investigations (IGQ) pwalsh.cap@gmail.com;
Wiseman Michelle Capt Chief of Staff (CS) michelle.wiseman@mtwg-cap.us;
Vacant Government Relations Advisor (GR)
Vacant Health Services Officer (HS)
Vacant Wing Historian (HO)






Bokovoy Christopher C/1st Lt Commandant, CSTAR CSTAR@mtwg-cap.us;
McGuire Jared C/1st Lt Chair, Wing Cadet Advisory Council slinger978@hotmail.com;

WING SQUADRON & FLIGHT COMMANDERS
Last
First Squadron Email
Ball Rob Capt Missoula Composite Squadron (MT018/CC) rball@montana.com;
Bowden Bill Lt Col Butte Flight (MT031/CC) mtdragon@bresnan.net;
Brainerd Greg 1st Lt The Crosswind Flight (MT038/CC) cap@brainerds.com;
Lariviere Dana Capt Beartooth Composite Squadron (MT008/CC) smilee761@gmail.com;
Marcano Ivan Maj Malmstrom AFB Comp. Squadron (MT012/CC) ixmarcano_16@hotmail.com;
Potratz Steven Maj Gallatin Composite Squadron (MT037/CC) steven.potratz@mtwg-cap.us;
Schneller Bob Capt Flathead Composite Squadron (MT053/CC) cappilot@charter.net;
Wiseman Michelle Capt Lewis and Clark Composite Squadron (MT060/CC) michelle.wiseman@mtwg-cap.us;
Vacant State Legislative Squadron (MT999/CC)

ACTIVE INCIDENT COMMANDERS
Burns Bob Lt Col Asst. Emergency Services Officer (DOSA) rburns41@bresnan.net;
Graf Pete Lt Col Deputy Chief of Staff - Operations (DO) grafpeter@q.com;
Radcliffe Bob Col Counterdrug Officer (DOC) radblr@hotmail.com;
Teel Nolan Col Wing Commander (CC) nolanteel@hotmail.com;
 
Don't even get me started on the (state of the art FLIR systems Wyoming has mounted on their planes) while bragging how much it improves their mission....

Hundreds of hours of training.... and the CRAP has not produced even ONE find.......

But... DHS wants them installed for potential terrorist monitoring.....

It is a VERY expensive and wasteful spending mission........


I have a lot of time behind a FLIR console at work. We used ours in a hunting bad guys capacity, but it was always very useful to our mission. I'm surprised the system WY uses isn't working well (again, different mission profile, perhaps).
 
All of the jobs listed at the Wing level in Ben's cut and pasted list are, well, the word "mandated" by National isn't right, but they're all "standard" jobs the brass at levels above the Wing would be asking "Why haven't you filled that position with someone?"

AND... what's not obvious looking at a list like that, is more often than not, when human resources are tight, those folks probably also hold at least one or two squadron level jobs AT THE SAME TIME as being on Wing Staff.

The low number of operational people is the same problem already discussed... if you're not getting called, not too much need for a massive operations structure now, is there?

More interesting is the lack of someone in the Legislative Squadron. Shows what you've said: State powers that be, aren't interested in even using these volunteers. Someone has decided to disenfranchise them and create some "good gub'mint jobs" instead... no big deal. It happens...

I'd also point out that... this list is probably just an export from the real database. Whether or not it's up-to-date, is usually iffy in most States. Our State IT guy has some scripts for that crap... well, assuming he's still doing it... remember I've been out for a few years. Most States, someone is cutting and pasting it all...

Four IC's is pretty typical in a small population State. It's VERY expensive in time and money to get rated as an IC. CAP doesn't pay for even 1/10 of the stuff you need to qualify.

You'll be traveling a lot on your own dime to sit in classes where real Public Safety folk from other agencies are just there on a junquet like any other, getting FEMA and other training required for their jobs, and they're getting paid, maybe getting per diem, and certainly had travel costs paid for it. You get to foot the bill yourself, if you didn't already come in with those pieces of paper from another agency sending you.

I am good friends and very old friends with a Colorado IC, unless he's "retired" from it by now. His advice about going for IC if you found yourself with time and money on your hands, and felt like it'd be "fun" or "interesting", was... Don't. Another I knew less well, fell out of favor with other IC's, and a candid conversation with him in a parking lot one night got me the scoop on how much he had paid out of his own pocket to even get to the base requirements. It wasn't a three figure number, but it wasn't a five figure number either. He was taken off "the list" for a while for politics, which I'm sure made him feel like that four-figure number was "really worth it" for a while. (Eventually I believe he went back to doing it.)

To do CERTAIN jobs in CAP, you'd better be personally wealthy, have copious amounts of free time or control of your days you have to work (self-employed), or retired and not working a day job, to even screw with getting through the requirements. Not that many, but CERTAIN jobs. IC is one of them.
 
...Just look at the Montana CAP top heavy administration...

I've avoided command like the plague, but my guess is that a large percentage of those wing level positions are mandated by national headquarters, while the small number of squadrons is at least partially a result of Montana not being a very populous state. But why does it matter? It's a safe bet that very few of those are paid positions.
 
All you can really tell from that list is these two guys got screwed... especially this first guy...

Graf Pete Lt Col Deputy Chief of Staff - Operations (DO) grafpeter@q.com;
Graf Pete Lt Col Stan/Eval Officer (DOV)

Both Stan/Eval and DO? UGGGGGGH. Paperwork nightmare.

Nash Al Lt Col Director of Public Affairs (PA)
Nash Al Lt Col Vice Commander (CV) al.nash@mtwg-cap.us;

Dude probably has or had a day job dealing with the Press. Or a charismatic extroverted Doctor or Laywer.

That second one is just a guess. I'm not going to Google.

That first guy though, is totally screwed. Totally.

:cool:
 
All of the jobs listed at the Wing level in Ben's cut and pasted list are, well, the word "mandated" by National isn't right, but they're all "standard" jobs the brass at levels above the Wing would be asking "Why haven't you filled that position with someone?"

AND... what's not obvious looking at a list like that, is more often than not, when human resources are tight, those folks probably also hold at least one or two squadron level jobs AT THE SAME TIME as being on Wing Staff.

The low number of operational people is the same problem already discussed... if you're not getting called, not too much need for a massive operations structure now, is there?

More interesting is the lack of someone in the Legislative Squadron. Shows what you've said: State powers that be, aren't interested in even using these volunteers. Someone has decided to disenfranchise them and create some "good gub'mint jobs" instead... no big deal. It happens...

I'd also point out that... this list is probably just an export from the real database. Whether or not it's up-to-date, is usually iffy in most States. Our State IT guy has some scripts for that crap... well, assuming he's still doing it... remember I've been out for a few years. Most States, someone is cutting and pasting it all...

Four IC's is pretty typical in a small population State. It's VERY expensive in time and money to get rated as an IC. CAP doesn't pay for even 1/10 of the stuff you need to qualify.

You'll be traveling a lot on your own dime to sit in classes where real Public Safety folk from other agencies are just there on a junquet like any other, getting FEMA and other training required for their jobs, and they're getting paid, maybe getting per diem, and certainly had travel costs paid for it. You get to foot the bill yourself, if you didn't already come in with those pieces of paper from another agency sending you.

I am good friends and very old friends with a Colorado IC, unless he's "retired" from it by now. His advice about going for IC if you found yourself with time and money on your hands, and felt like it'd be "fun" or "interesting", was... Don't. Another I knew less well, fell out of favor with other IC's, and a candid conversation with him in a parking lot one night got me the scoop on how much he had paid out of his own pocket to even get to the base requirements. It wasn't a three figure number, but it wasn't a five figure number either. He was taken off "the list" for a while for politics, which I'm sure made him feel like that four-figure number was "really worth it" for a while. (Eventually I believe he went back to doing it.)

To do CERTAIN jobs in CAP, you'd better be personally wealthy, have copious amounts of free time or control of your days you have to work (self-employed), or retired and not working a day job, to even screw with getting through the requirements. Not that many, but CERTAIN jobs. IC is one of them.

Again.....

More great info from Nate.. Thanks

In my observations of the Wyoming innerworkings of the CAP.. The VAST majority are/were federal employees( mostly DOD) and most of the rest are/were local government employees... They all get paid for perks.. Our local guys/gals have county funding for SAREX's,,,, So much so that the Jackson squadren does not pay a DIME to fly the plane here...They have the sheriffs dept fund all costs for fuel, hangar, SAREX's etc etc.... And when they go out flying for "practice".. They are on the county payroll / timeclock...

Also,, the state CAP admins who are federal employees, or past employees get higher benefits in the form of increased pensions for participating in CAP... It is a good gig if you can get it,,,Problem is the taxpayers have to fund their "private flying club"...

I don't think the vast majority of people realize how they are playing the game and riding the federal gravy train.....
 
Also,, the state CAP admins who are federal employees, or past employees get higher benefits in the form of increased pensions for participating in CAP... It is a good gig if you can get it,,,Problem is the taxpayers have to fund their "private flying club"...

Please point to the federal government regs that allow someone to draw pension benefits for a wing staff position with CAP.
 
Still waiting for you Cappies to post a legimate CAP find in Montana......

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