Best Track to go into airliners

bobmrg said:
My point is that 1500 hours just gets you in the door. Parts 61.153 to 61.160 describe what is needed beyond that.

Bob
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Exactly. I was advising him how to "get in the door." Once in, the airline will provide what's necessary to comply with the 61.153 and 61.160 requirements. They have the training resources and the simulators to accomplish it, and are doing so at this vary moment.
 
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LDJones said:
Exactly. I was advising him how to "get in the door." Once in, the airline will provide what's necessary to comply with the 61.153 and 61.160 requirements. They have the training resources and the simulators to accomplish it, and are doing so at the vary moment.
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Correct. The local flight schools are just as relevant today as ever before. The airlines are learning that it is up to them to provide the additional training.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Correct. The local flight schools are just as relevant today as ever before. The airlines are learning that it is up to them to provide the additional training.
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The incremental burden for the airline is nominal since they're providing classroom and sim training anyway. It really makes sense for them to undertake that piece of the training for the ATP. (A as in Airline. :wink2:)
 
There are many other ways to get the 1000 hr R-ATP that are much cheaper than ERAU.

UND: 18,000 out of state tuition plus about 60k in flight fees for PPL, IR, Commercial, CFI, CFII, CRJ200 FTD, Altitude and Motion sim class, intro to ATC and some acro flights.

There are many other universities as well that give you everything ERAU does and more, for less money. Also you get a real college experience (ERAU has like 3 women) AND you can double major in something not aviation related (good idea).
 
oregonboy109 said:
There are many other ways to get the 1000 hr R-ATP that are much cheaper than ERAU.

UND: 18,000 out of state tuition plus about 60k in flight fees for PPL, IR, Commercial, CFI, CFII, CRJ200 FTD, Altitude and Motion sim class, intro to ATC and some acro flights.

There are many other universities as well that give you everything ERAU does and more, for less money. Also you get a real college experience (ERAU has like 3 women) AND you can double major in something not aviation related (good idea).
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That's still ridiculously expensive. You can go to a state school or a community college for a third of the tuition. Plus the CRJ200 sim and the rest of those classes are pretty much a waste. The only thing that matters is your ratings. No one cares if you have altitude and motion sims.
 
The program at UND is much better than my state school or local FBO plus with scholarships the tuition is quite reasonable. The hour reduction and ability to get a second major at the same time is appealing to me. The additional classes obviously aren't "useless" and it's nice they're included in the costs and even so the costs are cheaper than WMU, Purdue, ERAU...There are many ways to get to the airlines and this is simply one of those ways.
 
From my perspective UND produces a much better pilot who's ego is more in line with their ability.
 
First off. Let's get somethings simple out of the way. This list is the ONLY WAY to obtain a 1,000 hours or 1,250 hour restricted ATP (depending on your degree and specialty) otherwise you'd need to military. If you went somewhere not on this list you need 1,500 hours. https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/Institutional_Authority_List.pdf

The restricted ATP is worth a lot. That is why I personally am a supporter of aviation universities if you have the means to attend it. If you are eligible to get into an airline with 500 hours less thats roughly 6-8 months of flight instructing time. In those 6-8 months the way the regional airlines are hiring now (we'll say 40 a month average) that's a difference of 240-320 pilots ahead of you in seniority. Ask any active 121 pilot how important seniority is. That can be the difference between furlough or not, line holder or not (85 hours of credit on 13 days off with per diem is a lot more money earned than 75 hours on min guarantee with barely any per diem, and only 11 days off). Captain upgrade or not. And if your specific regional has a flow depending on the flow number that can be years difference. Now take an airline top scale. Let's say it effected your flow date by two years (at a minimum), thats roughly 400k lost (assuming you'd top out the scale at a major which is likely if you entered young and could give about 20 years at a major) (by the way that alone paid back your tuition) since it was 2 years less you spent at a major, all of a result of the 7 months difference in going to an airline since you weren't eligible for a 1,000 hour ATP. It would also effect quality of life which has a significant value on it as well. I have flown with many First officers both from and not from aviation universities, there are always bad ones and good ones from all backgrounds, i have noticed no more attitudes or whatever you will from ones with an aviation university background than not.

My point in all this is the math is there. It is not an intelligent thing to bash the aviation universities programs especially in this day and age when it is possible to get in to an airline with a significant reduction in hours which translates into many things. I think it is important to look at the path you plan on taking and lay out what is important to you. Definitely do not think it is the only way, but definitely don't overlook the aviation universities either.
 
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I do agree, there are benefits to a structured 'university' flight program. It may not be quite the immersion one may get with the Navy or Air Force, but much more so than scheduling with retired Bob at the home drome.

They cover a lot of bases that may be missed or glossed over in casual flight training. They have the contacts and coordinated training, always with the end goals in mind.

Let's just agree there are many avenues of approach, one may of got there with hours of banner tow, the next flew the SR-71. Neither of which is necessarily a determining factor of what type of employee and 121 pilot they will be 20 years later.
 
How much plus interest to save 6 months of flight instructing? What about layoffs or an illness or injury? 6 months of life working can be smoked so easy it ain't worth the pilot university price. And slow down, planning to work your youth away is no way to live. The airline execs all took a gap(party) year in college and make more then the pilots. :yes:
JustinD said:
First off. Let's get somethings simple out of the way. This list is the ONLY WAY to obtain a 1,000 hours or 1,250 hour restricted ATP (depending on your degree and specialty) otherwise you'd need to military. If you went somewhere not on this list you need 1,500 hours. https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/Institutional_Authority_List.pdf

The restricted ATP is worth a lot. That is why I personally am a supporter of aviation universities if you have the means to attend it. If you are eligible to get into an airline with 500 hours less thats roughly 6-8 months of flight instructing time. In those 6-8 months the way the regional airlines are hiring now (we'll say 40 a month average) that's a difference of 240-320 pilots ahead of you in seniority. Ask any active 121 pilot how important seniority is. That can be the difference between furlough or not, line holder or not (85 hours of credit on 13 days off with per diem is a lot more money earned than 75 hours on min guarantee with barely any per diem, and only 11 days off). Captain upgrade or not. And if your specific regional has a flow depending on the flow number that can be years difference. Now take an airline top scale. Let's say it effected your flow date by two years (at a minimum), thats roughly 400k lost (assuming you'd top out the scale at a major which is likely if you entered young and could give about 20 years at a major) (by the way that alone paid back your tuition) since it was 2 years less you spent at a major, all of a result of the 7 months difference in going to an airline since you weren't eligible for a 1,000 hour ATP. It would also effect quality of life which has a significant value on it as well. I have flown with many First officers both from and not from aviation universities, there are always bad ones and good ones from all backgrounds, i have noticed no more attitudes or whatever you will from ones with an aviation university background than not.

My point in all this is the math is there. It is not an intelligent thing to bash the aviation universities programs especially in this day and age when it is possible to get in to an airline with a significant reduction in hours which translates into many things. I think it is important to look at the path you plan on taking and lay out what is important to you. Definitely do not think it is the only way, but definitely don't overlook the aviation universities either.
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Phoenix said:
How much plus interest to save 6 months of flight instructing? What about layoffs or an illness or injury? 6 months of life working can be smoked so easy it ain't worth the pilot university price. And slow down, planning to work your youth away is no way to live. The airline execs all took a gap(party) year in college and make more then the pilots. :yes:
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I was gonna write a lengthy rant about this very point but you covered it in 60 words or less. :yes:

He should ask the pilots of the lost decade how getting into UAL a month earlier work out for them. I know people who didn't get furloughed in 9/11 who straight up wished they had (so they could pursue better QOL... getting back in the military no less!).

There's more to life than money. People act like longevity pay is the end all be all. It isn't. RELATIVE SENIORITY is. Being a 99er% the day the airline stops hiring for 7 years is not much better than picking strawberries 2000 miles from your familia. :no:
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
It seems fashionable to bash ERAU but I haven't seen a lot of concrete reasoning behind it. Care to elaborate?
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It costs too much money. Otherwise it's like any other school. How much you learn is proportional to how much effort you put forth. The ERAU graduates I have flown with are just like pilots from any other background. Some are very professional and do a great job. Others are terrible and I wonder how they made it in the industry.
 
Take a look at Airline Pilot Central for more insight into the Airline Industry.
Most folks are happy to talk to you and share the good, bad & ugly. Your CFI can help either as a mentor or introduce you to someone who has moved on to an airline.
Good luck, its a fantastic carer choice but not without significant challanges.
 
hindsight2020 said:
There's more to life than money. People act like longevity pay is the end all be all. It isn't. RELATIVE SENIORITY is. Being a 99er% the day the airline stops hiring for 7 years is not much better than picking strawberries 2000 miles from your familia. :no:
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There absolutely is, which is why I mentioned quality of life. In my personal experience If i was hired 6 months after my date of hire I would still be a first officer, meanwhile I am round 1 line holding captain and have yet to not get a day off that I. So not only has that 6 months translated to more money, more relative seniority (as you mentioned), it has directly resulted in better quality of life. My point was to show how there could be benefits to the aviation university path. It's obviously not for everyone and your mileage may vary, but as I said before to flat out say its a bad idea just isn't the right thing to say. It's up to the individual basis but it could very well be a viable option if you have the means/ability to do so. Part of helping someone make a good decision is to provide both sides of the coin, on here it seems everyone is quick to bash the aviation universities, well if this young fellow would like know his options I was simply providing the other side of the coin to show the benefits the aviation university could have.
 
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Captain said:
Step 1. Get a degree. Get it in something you love or at least like and find interesting that has a possibility of being valued going forward for the next 40 years.

Step 2. After you get the degree go get your PPl. If you like that continue to step 3, otherwise go make money from step 1.

Step 3. Go get your CMEI

Step 4. Decide how you want to build time. CFI, banner tow, jump plane, corporate gear slinger, ect

Step 5. When you meet minimums to regionals apply to them all.

Step 6. When you meet minimums to majors / nationals apply to them all.

Step 7. Have fun.
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Ding Ding Ding! UND>ERAU
 
sourdough44 said:
Let's just agree there are many avenues of approach, one may of got there with hours of banner tow, the next flew the SR-71. Neither of which is necessarily a determining factor of what type of employee and 121 pilot they will be 20 years later.
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:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
You hit the nail on the head right here.
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I agree you can smell most of them like a rat before your even down the jetway :yes:

The biggest thing I could forward is doing your ratings cheap Part 61 . You will have a much broader opportunity to grow into a better pilot and build real PIC time actually thinking for yourself.

And in fact you will feel perfectly damn comfortable flying a visual approach when your at the controls of an airliner, this trait is usually not the case of the big league pilot school graduates.

If I had a dollar for every-time Ive heard something along the lines of.
" I don't know I'm just not used flying visuals , we didn't do those alot."
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
It seems fashionable to bash ERAU but I haven't seen a lot of concrete reasoning behind it. Care to elaborate?
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They almost universally have very very little PIC time where they were thinking for themselves in any kind of airplane. This cheapens the foundation their flight experience and I will be honest the academy types do struggle much more than their Part 61 counterparts in the first years of line flying.

Some of these are lighthearted and some of these are damn serious.
Most I have flown with from ERAU coming into 121 :

-Get quiet very fast when its time to earn the paycheck in weather situations.
- Think we need Type 1 and 4 because there is "hoarfrost"
- Botch just about every visual approach in some manner
- ignore what the wind is doing to them
- want to fly fast as **** without regard to fuel burn
- seem offended if you don't give them a parade for greasing one 1500 feet past the touchdown zone.
- are aces at making sure the nose tires hit every center-line light on takeoff
- will constantly look for any minutia from any manual to spout off about, usually out of context in a lame attempt to "show up" captain
- and of course they actually believe they are the best trained pilots in the sky :yes:

Again, before you flame some of these are crew-room jokes but some are absolutely a consistent observance.
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
I think the main complaint stems from a knee-jerk reaction from the government and a mandated change that wasn't necessary.

Do you really think another 1,250 hours in the right seat of a C152 with a student would have prevented Colgan 3407? I doubt it.
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Yes I do. I doubt the captain of Colgan 3407 had the necessary skill set to ever become a CFI. If he had Colgan 3407 would have never happened.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Yes I do. I doubt the captain of Colgan 3407 had the necessary skill set to ever become a CFI. If he had Colgan 3407 would have never happened.
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I understand he had failed several check rides. No wonder congress reacted! I doubt he ever would have made it thru cadets. Your thoughts?
 
Art VanDelay said:
Yes I do. I doubt the captain of Colgan 3407 had the necessary skill set to ever become a CFI. If he had Colgan 3407 would have never happened.
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I guess I don't know if he was ever a CFI or not.. That didn't really cross my mind as today it's almost the "standard" way to get the hours needed.

But at some point he did have an instrument and a commercial checkride, did he not? Along with any other flight tests after that...

Somehow thousands of pilots did just fine before the 1500 hour rule was implemented. Hours don't mean anything... The Colgan captain had over 3000 when he spun it in.

Anyways that's pretty far off track the subject so I'll shut up now:)
 
jordane93 said:
Have you thought about the military? Airlines love military guys.
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True, but going into the military only to get an airline job doesn't make much sense. Too many 365 day non flying deployments, RPAs, staff, school, etc to deal with. If someone wants to serve and wouldn't mind being an airline guy in 15 years it's a good path but in that order.


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curiouser said:
I'm waaay past the age for that, but for younger folks' benefit, I have to ask: If you enlist in the military, is there any prior guarantee that you'll be sent to flight school? I'm guessing that having your private certificate and scoring well on ASVAB would help, but who's to say that they won't get you to sign on the line and then have you driving a forklift or punching a keyboard instead of flying?
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If you want to be a pilot, don't enlist. You have to be a commissioned officer (other than the awesome Warrant Officer program the Army still has). Depending on grades and the need for pilots you can get a flight slot guaranteed before OTS. They won't advertise it much, but it happens. ROTC and the Academy are not guarantees.

If you drop or wash out of UPT, you still owe 4 years. All bets are off then.


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bflynn said:
From what I see, it' s military. I'm working on a contract for an airline in Dallas. Walking through the flight training building here, looking at the picture collages, it looks like 90+% of the pilots have a military background. It's interesting military, military, military, military and then someone building an airplane in their garage.
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I'm military and got hired at Delta a year ago. The stats the posted for 2014 were 964 hires, 48% military, 27 yrs was the youngest and 61 yrs was the oldest. So less than half of the new hires at Delta are military - plenty of guys getting hired through regionals.


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NJP_MAN said:
Cost. There is no reason to spend what a doctor pays in college to fly airlines for a living.



Well maybe not quite a doctors expenses, but near 200k is not even in the realm of reason to fly airplanes.
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Find another dream to follow. Who knows what kind of job a pilot will have in the future, the position may exist or not with automation. the only people selling the dream are those in it, and do not deal with reality.
 
brien23 said:
Find another dream to follow. Who knows what kind of job a pilot will have in the future, the position may exist or not with automation. the only people selling the dream are those in it, and do not deal with reality.
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I'm in it and I do NOT sell it. I have two boys 12 and 10 and I am not at all pushing them to be pilots for a living. I'm the first to tell them by the time they're my age there won't be pilots.

Sharing the joy of flight is another thing. I'm more than happy to take them up in a rental and let them experience it. They're pretty good sticks too...
 
EvilEagle said:
I'm military and got hired at Delta a year ago. The stats the posted for 2014 were 964 hires, 48% military, 27 yrs was the youngest and 61 yrs was the oldest. So less than half of the new hires at Delta are military - plenty of guys getting hired through regionals.


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61 year old new hire???

Do you know any of the back story on that? I was under the assumption that the airlines didn't figure they could get a payback on the training for an old person like that.
 
bobmrg said:
I acknowledge that Congress caved in to the relatives of those lost on the Colgan flight and that the FAA is pretty much powerless until the increased costs of 121 employment come home to roost.

61.153 requires that an applicant for an ATPME or an ATP concurrently with a type rating graduate from an airline transport pilot certification course from an authorized training provider (121, 135, 141, 142, not often found at the local FBO).

Read the requirements for acceptable sim time. I have no specific knowledge, but my guess is that the local FBO does not have a sim capable of replicating a turbine-powered airplane with a MTOW of 40K pounds or better.

Back in the day, I was Part 61 all the way to the ATP...that is no longer possible.

Bob
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Now let me make sure I understand this, please correct me if I am wrong. I have no ATP or written done, nor do I have any foreseen future need for one. However I have all the hours, and various experience requirements covered in spades. My figuring was always if I was going to take a job that required an ATP, say a charter jet, I would just knock out the written and get the ATP with the TR check ride at Flight Safety. To the best of my knowledge, my plan has survived the rule change, correct?
 
Henning said:
Now let me make sure I understand this, please correct me if I am wrong. I have no ATP or written done, nor do I have any foreseen future need for one. However I have all the hours, and various experience requirements covered in spades. My figuring was always if I was going to take a job that required an ATP, say a charter jet, I would just knock out the written and get the ATP with the TR check ride at Flight Safety. To the best of my knowledge, my plan has survived the rule change, correct?
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Yea but in order to take the ATP written you need to take the ATP CTP course which runs around $5000 or if you're lucky, the company will pay for your CTPP course.
 
jordane93 said:
Yea but in order to take the ATP written you need to take the ATP CTP course which runs around $5000 or if you're lucky, the company will pay for your CTPP course.
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Yeah, I'm done paying for ratings, MES was the last I wanted. If I pay for another it will be a glider rating.
 
I am really passionate about aviation and I am looking for guidance on the best way and cheapest way to become an airline pilot
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Something else to consider: if you are passionate about aviation why would you want to become an airline pilot? It seems to me that airline pilots are bus drivers who go where and when the company tells them to go. There certainly is not much "freedom of flight" in that.

Not trying to insult anyone with that comment - pilots are intelligent people with a great deal of responsibility, especially commercial pilots. It seems to me the fastest way to kill your passion for something is to make it a job.

Have you considered going to school and getting a job where you can afford to make flying a part of your life? This way you can fly where you want (mostly) and when you want. I know my dentist sure loves flying his Cirrus in between his offices.

Good luck with your choice!
 
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