Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pilot?

N918KT

N918KT

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Hey guys, now that the watered down version of PBOR2 has been introduced in the Senate, do you think this bill now revised still has the potential to kill the LSA industry and the Sport Pilot Rule?

Before you say yes or no with an explanation, let me tell you what I think of it.

Even though new student pilots and pilots lapsed medicals greater than 10 years still need to get a medical at once, more likely than not, the majority probably would still pass along with ten of thousands of other pilots who would already be exempt from the 3rd class medical as proposed.

With more pilots flying bigger aircraft and more student pilots still want to go for PPL even if they had to get a medical once, I think this would reduce LSA sales and production, driving LSA aircraft prices even higher and would have flight schools drop their sport pilot programs in favor of PPL programs or not have flight schools include sport pilot training in their curriculum.

What do you think this will do to the LSA industry? Would it still has the potential to reduce demand for sport pilots and LSAs?
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

There's more to LSA than just the Sport Pilot rating aspect. The biggest problem is being hamstrung to the 1320 GW number.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

I think it will reduce the size of the LSA industry but there will still be pilots who want to fly a newer plane for lower prices than a newer Skyhawk or the like.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

I'm particularly worried about new people who want to become sport pilots for medical reasons but cannot if the majority of newcomers could pass the 3rd class, then this would reduce demand for sport pilot training in flight schools. Then people who want to get sport pilot training would be out of luck or would have to travel even farther to get the training they want.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Silvaire said:
There's more to LSA than just the Sport Pilot rating aspect. The biggest problem is being hamstrung to the 1320 GW number.
Click to expand...

If the LSA GW was increased beyond the 1320 lbs(600kg metric) to include the thousands of 150s, tomahawks, beech skippers, and the like, the SPL would have been even more of the success it was intended to be by actually addressing the "cost of entry" problem.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

The medical is a long way away from the only reason people become sport pilots or fly LSAs (especially the latter)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is a MAJOR contributor
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

The LSA rules provide a method for certificating new production aircraft at what should be a lower cost than a standard certificate. I don't see much change in this given what appears to be the nature of PBR-II.

The sport pilot rules provide a route for those who are content to fly small aircraft and/or those that would prefer to avoid (or have an issue with) the FAA medical nit picking. I don't see an immediate change in this given what appears to be the nature of PBR-II.

In the future, there will likely be those who face issues with their medical and want to keep flying their Bonanza. PBR-II will facilitate that and keep the overall accident rates down since those geezers won't be forced to fly an LSA that requires skills that they don't have. (Insurance companies report high accident rates (usually takeoff and landing) among pilots attempting to transition to LSAs.)
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Is the point of this thread to illustrate the desire to **** over a large portion of the pilot population to save a smaller portion a few dollars?
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

SkyHog said:
Is the point of this thread to illustrate the desire to **** over a large portion of the pilot population to save a smaller portion a few dollars?
Click to expand...
????????????????????
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
????????????????????
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It seems to me that this thread is spelling out the "PBOR2 is bad because it will end LSA and drive prices for LSA higher."

I am thinking returning flight status to those of us that have been screwed by the FAA and their onerous, over draconian ruleset might be more important.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

KeithASanford said:
If the LSA GW was increased beyond the 1320 lbs(600kg metric) to include the thousands of 150s, tomahawks, beech skippers, and the like, the SPL would have been even more of the success it was intended to be by actually addressing the "cost of entry" problem.
Click to expand...

SPL/LSA had zero, zip, nada to do with the cost of anything and it wasn't meant to make anything easier, nor was it meant to make anything more accessible. Quite the contrary, it was intended to regulate 2 seater "heavy" ultralights.

152s etc.. We're already regulated so no need to rope them in. A few old taildraggers got caught in the crossfire.

Thee are $25,000 new LSAs out there that are in the spirit of the regulation but, nobody wants them they want a mini SR22.
 
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Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

SkyHog said:
Is the point of this thread to illustrate the desire to **** over a large portion of the pilot population to save a smaller portion a few dollars?
Click to expand...

I have always maintained that SPL/LSA is bad for the light GA industry. The tone of this thread is a big reason why.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

oldShar said:
The medical is a long way away from the only reason people become sport pilots or fly LSAs (especially the latter)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is a MAJOR contributor
Click to expand...

No it's not. The medial is 98% the reason. 1% ultralight pilots who were forced to transition and 1% other( likely misinformed that getting an SPL is "easier" )
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

SkyHog said:
It seems to me that this thread is spelling out the "PBOR2 is bad because it will end LSA and drive prices for LSA higher."

I am thinking returning flight status to those of us that have been screwed by the FAA and their onerous, over draconian ruleset might be more important.
Click to expand...

If PBOR-2 spells the end of the current sport pilot rules, then it is bad. If it simply says that once you have a medical, you don't need to get another in order to fly a four seat aircraft, then the whole thing is pretty much a big yawn. If it eliminated the sport pilot medical catch 22, it would be a good thing.

At this point, we really don't know what it says, but indications seem to be that it will be declared to be a big victory by the AOPA while not making substantive improvements for actual pilots.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

oldShar said:
The medical is a long way away from the only reason people become sport pilots or fly LSAs (especially the latter)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is a MAJOR contributor
Click to expand...


The Sports Pilot's certificate has two problems:
1. The cheapest planes to rent most places are NOT lsa and
2. those that are lsa are few and far between

So you're either "saving money" and losing time, driving great distances to fly the cheaper lsa or you're getting the medical and completing the PP-SEL.

It seems to me that if you could obtain a Sports Pilots license by renting a 30 year old Cessna 150, a plane that's both cheap to rent and cost effective for any flight school to own, the cost of entry into aviation by way of the SPL would actually be cheaper. The only substantial difference between the 150 and the sparse lsas is the need for the medical.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

bartmc said:
SPL/LSA had zero, zip, nada to do with the cost of anything and it wasn't meant to make anything easier, nor was it meant to make anything more accessible. Quite the contrary, it was intended to regulate 2 seater "heavy" ultralights.

152s etc.. We're already regulated so no need to rope them in. A few old taildraggers got caught in the crossfire.
Click to expand...

The ultralight regulation may have been the behind the scenes reason for Sport Pilot, but every single pitch I EVER heard in reference to the certificate was to allow a "cheaper entry into aviation." That's possible, but not with the LSA definition being so strict.

bartmc said:
There are $25,000 new LSAs out there that are in the spirit of the regulation but, nobody wants them they want a mini SR22.
Click to expand...

Please name these $25,000 new LSAs. Flight schools would have them if they existed.
 
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Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

This is a complicated issue.

First, there are light sport aircraft other than airplanes: weight-shift, powered parachutes, gyroplanes, balloons, etc. The PBOR2 won't really affect those at all, since the medical rules aren't what drive people to use the light sport / sport pilot rules for them.

I also don't think you will see much affect on the number of people getting the sport pilot airplane rating. To the extent people are getting that rating because they can't get a medical, they probably have not had a medical in the last ten years and will still not be able to go the private pilot route under the PBOR2. And, my sense from the local sport pilot focused flight school is that people are going the sport pilot route for reasons other than the medical issue--primarily the reduced cost as a result of fewer hours being required and the slightly lower rental cost of LSA aircraft.

The biggest difference will come from older pilots who already have private pilot ratings, can't get a new medical, and currently fly under sport pilot privileges. They currently have to fly LSAs and would be able to fly heavier standard category airplanes. Obviously, this will reduce the demand for LSAs to some degree.

I think the biggest impact will be felt on the resale prices of older standard-category LSA-eligible airplanes, things like Ercoupes and Champs, along with experimental aircraft that are LSA-eligible. Their prices rose when the light sport rules were introduced, and they will likely drop if the PBOR2 is adopted.

As for new-design S-LSA airplanes, I don't think that the current sales of these aircraft are really being driven to a huge extent by the sport pilot medical rules. The biggest-selling S-LSAs today are the Carbon Cub and the Van's RV-12. The Icon A5 may soon be joining them. They are being sold as S-LSAs mainly because the certification cost is less for S-LSA's, not because there is a huge market for them among pilots who can't get medical certificates. The other major S-LSA models on sale today are European designs, which exist largely because of European rules and would continue to be sold, even if PBOR2 passed.

The thing that I think would really kill off development and sales of new S-LSA aircraft is if the Part 23 rewrite currently underway in the U.S. and Europe succeeds in making certification of standard category aircraft easier. The 1320-pound limit is really a significant impediment to making two-seat aircraft that can carry Americans of modern weight and provide modern features, useful range, and acceptable cargo capacity. If manufacturers could make heavier aircraft without massive certification costs, I think they will jump at it.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

KeithASanford said:
The ultralight regulation may have been the behind the scenes reason for Sport Pilot, but every single pitch I EVER heard in reference to the certificate was to allow a "cheaper entry into aviation." That's possible, but not with the LSA definition being so strict.



Please name these $25,000 new LSAs. Flight schools would have them if they existed.
Click to expand...

He was talking about heavy ultralights, like this. I think it's pretty obvious why they haven't taken the airplane training market by storm, but then again, they were never meant to.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

bartmc said:
No it's not. The medial is 98% the reason. 1% ultralight pilots who were forced to transition and 1% other( likely misinformed that getting an SPL is "easier" )
Click to expand...

That's not been my experience. There is an LSA-only flight school at Santa Monica that has grown to four Sport Cruisers, which stay very busy. If you look at their webpage, you will see that their sales pitch focuses almost entirely on the reduced cost of training. You have to really dig to even see a mention of the fact you don't need a medical. And the students I've met from there tend to be young folks for whom the cost of a full private pilot course would have been difficult to afford. I don't think that the medical requirement is the only thing driving folks there.

Maybe they are being sold a bill of goods and would all be better off getting a "real" pilot's certificate, but I kind of doubt it. Too many people start along the private pilot route and quit before they get their certificate. And folks with sport pilot can always upgrade to private pilot later if they can afford it and their flying needs require it.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Neil Rubin said:
That's not been my experience. There is an LSA-only flight school at Santa Monica that has grown to four Sport Cruisers, which stay very busy. If you look at their webpage, you will see that their sales pitch focuses almost entirely on the reduced cost of training. You have to really dig to even see a mention of the fact you don't need a medical. And the students I've met from there tend to be young folks for whom the cost of a full private pilot course would have been difficult to afford. I don't think that the medical requirement is the only thing driving folks there.

Maybe they are being sold a bill of goods and would all be better off getting a "real" pilot's certificate, but I kind of doubt it. Too many people start along the private pilot route and quit before they get their certificate. And folks with sport pilot can always upgrade to private pilot later if they can afford it and their flying needs require it.
Click to expand...

Yup, they think it's cheaper or easier. We have a guy with an LSA here, most people elect to train in the 150, it's cheaper.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Neil Rubin said:
He was talking about heavy ultralights, like this. I think it's pretty obvious why they haven't taken the airplane training market by storm, but then again, they were never meant to.
Click to expand...

Yup. That's it.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

KeithASanford said:
If the LSA GW was increased beyond the 1320 lbs(600kg metric) to include the thousands of 150s, tomahawks, beech skippers, and the like, the SPL would have been even more of the success it was intended to be by actually addressing the "cost of entry" problem.
Click to expand...

Yes but you are still only talking about the "Sport Pilot" part. LSA is an entire different certification category that entails equipment, maintenance and many other aspects. For instance, there are no AD's on LSA.

Old Champs and Cubs are not LSA, they are merely compliant for Sport Pilot usage, 150's aren't and still wouldn't be under any medical reform.
 
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Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

I'm in favor of any law that reduces government interference in my ability to fly a plane. I'm a, thankfully healthy, 32 year old saying this so I'm happy to be sharing the sky with anyone who wants to fly.

The sport pilot category never made sense to me. It's essentially a private pilot license with a few more restrictions and noteworthy for this discussion, the removal of the medical. So if the removal of a recurring medical is removed, as it should be honestly, I'm not sure what the point of pursuing a sport pilots license will be. However, don't forget that plenty of private pilots may still elect to fly LSA aircraft as many of the LSA's are newer, have better avionics and are pretty similar to 150's in terms of squirliness in windy conditions- like you are not flying today anyway. I would imagine though, that production of new LSA would continue to fit the demand.

Evidence shows that the LSA business was a failure from the start. Take the Cessna 162 for example. It costs a disproportionately high amount for the relative benefits the aircraft provides. It was a flawed business model from the start and, as any capitalist society should, was punished by the relatively small demand for a poorly priced airplane.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Silvaire said:
Yes but you are still only talking about the "Sport Pilot" part. LSA is an entire different certification category that entails equipment, maintenance and many other aspects. For instance, there are no AD's on LSA.



Old Champs and Cubs are not LSA, they are merely compliant for Sport Pilot usage, 150's aren't and still wouldn't be under any medical reform.
Click to expand...


The LSA category doesn't have to involve a fleet of planes that are all ready to rent at a cheap rate. The Sport pilot certificate is the tool to make aviation more affordable, whether you're training in a Champ, a Cub, a fat ultralight or, if the weight was increased to include roughly 35-40% of existing trainers, 150s, Skippers and Tomahawks. That would be good for aviation and not necessarily a threat to the LSA category.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

LSA was supposed to save pilots money,which really isn't a reality. Do to low gross weight and restrictions,like no IMC. If you old fly aircraft like Cessna 150s and172s without a medical . Do to the abundance of low cost used aircraft,the LSA industry could be in big trouble.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

The truth is that ALL airplanes are still more expensive to build now. Don't kid yourself into thinking that if the rules were different a new Cessna 150 would be less than the cost of a Legend Cub. Besides, sales for Legend Cubs and Carbon Cubs have been fairly good, relatively speaking.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

RyanShort1 said:
The truth is that ALL airplanes are still more expensive to build now. Don't kid yourself into thinking that if the rules were different a new Cessna 150 would be less than the cost of a Legend Cub. Besides, sales for Legend Cubs and Carbon Cubs have been fairly good, relatively speaking.
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Who needs new ones? :dunno:

If the goal is to bring more people to aviation by making it more affordable, flight schools wouldn't need to be strapped with expensive new planes.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Personally, I think the "watering down" is acceptable...:yes:
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

If the PBOR2 really goes through I'd expect sport pilots to go the way of recreational pilots. Same thing really.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

steingar said:
If the PBOR2 really goes through I'd expect sport pilots to go the way of recreational pilots. Same thing really.
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Except that PBOR2 (as it stands) requires an FAA medical.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Except that PBOR2 (as it stands) requires an FAA medical.
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In the last 10 years, yes. I don't think a one-time medical is an onerous burden. It basically creates a lifetime medical.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

mryan75 said:
In the last 10 years, yes. I don't think a one-time medical is an onerous burden. It basically creates a lifetime medical.
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Which makes it a pointless medical.

But, I guess if you have no problem getting a medical, then you have no problem getting the medical.

The rest of the world will need to be careful to not apply and get locked out of Sport Pilot.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Which makes it a pointless medical.

But, I guess if you have no problem getting a medical, then you have no problem getting the medical.

The rest of the world will need to be careful to not apply and get locked out of Sport Pilot.
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It doesn't make it pointless at all. How does it make it pointless?
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

mryan75 said:
It doesn't make it pointless at all. How does it make it pointless?
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Assume that it is now 2066 You got a medical back in 2006. What was the point? What does it say about your ability to safely act as PIC?
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Assume that it is now 2066 You got a medical back in 2006. What was the point? What does it say about your ability to safely act as PIC?
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Assume that it is now 2066 You got denied a medical back in 2006 because of paranoid schizophrenia... The point was obvious.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

mryan75 said:
Assume that it is now 2066 You got denied a medical back in 2006 because of paranoid schizophrenia... The point was obvious.
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You are absolutely right. In one case out of 1000 it will make a difference (assuming the wannabe pilot waits until the onset of symptoms to apply for the medical - which often doesn't happen until one is a young adult. Or at least has enough sense to not admit to the symptoms on the FAA form.). :rolleyes:
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Assume that it is now 2066 You got a medical back in 2006. What was the point? What does it say about your ability to safely act as PIC?
Click to expand...

The idea is every couple of years you're supposed to self certify on an FAA website that might even have some educational content.
 
Re: Will the watered down version of PBOR2 still probably would kill LSA and Sport Pi

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You are absolutely right. In one case out of 1000 it will make a difference :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Roll your eyes all you want, you just admitted it's not pointless.
 
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