ALPA to GA: Screw you

[SkyHog]

So because the medical experts don't want to do something, to hell with the knowledge they have, ignore them? Truly the American way these days, you get the info you don't want, f'it, I'll do what I want.

It's no wonder GA is dying, it's mostly full of crotchety old white men.

I certainly hope you don't really consider the FAA, which sees Kidney Stones and Toe Fungus treatments as disqualifying events, to be medical experts...

 

[dell30rb]

Eliminating the medical would not result in a higher supply of airline pilots because, even if people don't need a medical at first, they will by they time they fly commercially.

It would get more people flying, and young people too. Anyone who learns to fly (under a certain age) at least considers doing it for a living.

When a 20 year old learns he needs $2000 worth of psych tests to take flying lessons because the docs gave him ADD meds in middle school its a bit of a turn off.

 

[dell30rb]

So because the medical experts don't want to do something, to hell with the knowledge they have, ignore them? Truly the American way these days, you get the info you don't want, f'it, I'll do what I want.

It's no wonder GA is dying, it's mostly full of crotchety old white men.

You are my least favorite person on this forum.

 

[Everskyward]

It would get more people flying, and young people too. Anyone who learns to fly (under a certain age) at least considers doing it for a living.

When a 20 year old learns he needs $2000 worth of psych tests to take flying lessons because the docs gave him ADD meds in middle school its a bit of a turn off.

But they would still need to face that hurdle to fly professionally so the theory that airline pilots are worried about competition from these people doesn't hold water.

 

[dell30rb]

But they would still need to face that hurdle to fly professionally so the theory that airline pilots are worried about competition from these people doesn't hold water.

There are lots of people, young and old who are interested in learning to fly but never get started on training because of the medical requirement.

If you are already a private pilot and you are sure you want to fly for a living, spending money and some of your time in order to obtain a medical is a drop in the bucket compared to the training costs you need to spend in order to get the hours and certificates necessary to fly for a living.

Raising the barrier to entry for a profession lowers the supply of workers in that profession and increases the pay. So the ALPA does not support GA and loves the 1500hr rule.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I certainly hope you don't really consider the FAA, which sees Kidney Stones and Toe Fungus treatments as disqualifying events, to be medical experts...

No, but the FAA certainly has more qualified people to speak on it than the 525 ignoramuses who were elected simply by spending the most money.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

There are lots of people, young and old who are interested in learning to fly but never get started on training because of the medical requirement.

If you are already a private pilot and you are sure you want to fly for a living, spending money and some of your time in order to obtain a medical is a drop in the bucket compared to the training costs you need to spend in order to get the hours and certificates necessary to fly for a living.

That may be so, but there are many orders of magnitude more than would love to learn to fly, but can't afford to. This entire argument of "people want to learn to fly can't because of a medical" is like jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

 

[MikeELP]

...Nothing wrong with that, and I understand why they love the system as it is. But don't sit here and blow sunshine up our butts about how altruistic AMEs are, cuz no one's buying it.

Bottom line: At the end of the day, doctors want the 3rd class medical system kept the same because it lines their pockets.

Total rubbish. At say $120 per aviation medical, I doubt it barely covers their overhead much less their time.

 

[dell30rb]

That may be so, but there are many orders of magnitude more than would love to learn to fly, but can't afford to. This entire argument of "people want to learn to fly can't because of a medical" is like jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

You can take lessons at my flying club for a $300 initial investment, $70/hr plane rental and $25/hr instructors. Pay as you go. I got my certificate for under 5 grand over 6 months. This is a big club, there are now 380 members and the price for training now is the same as it was in 2011.

When you are 20, and learn you need to fork over $2000 and take a battery of psych tests to reverse an ADD diagnosis in middle school.. JUST to begin training, its a show stopper.

Happened to a friend of mine. He filled out the application for our club and even sent in the $300 check.


Seriously a date costs more than an hour of flying a 152. Its not that expensive.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

You can take lessons at my flying club for a $300 initial investment, $70/hr plane rental and $25/hr instructors. Pay as you go. I got my certificate for under 5 grand over 6 months. This is a big club, there are now 380 members and the price for training now is the same as it was in 2011.

When you are 20, and learn you need to fork over $2000 and take a battery of psych tests to reverse an ADD diagnosis in middle school, its a show stopper.

Happened to a friend of mine. He filled out the application for our club and even sent in the $300 check.


Seriously a date costs more than an hour of flying a 152. Its not that expensive.

Maybe a date with a working girl, but that's the only way any kind of date is going to be cheaper than flying. At the end of the day, flying isn't affordable for most people under the age of 35.

 

[Everskyward]

There are lots of people, young and old who are interested in learning to fly but never get started on training because of the medical requirement.

I think there may be some young people but not "lots of" young people who fall into this category. At least not enough for ALPA to care about. In any case I doubt the people who now belong to ALPA are worried about competition from people who have not yet started learning to fly.

 

[Everskyward]

You can take lessons at my flying club for a $300 initial investment, $70/hr plane rental and $25/hr instructors. Pay as you go. I got my certificate for under 5 grand over 6 months. This is a big club, there are now 380 members and the price for training now is the same as it was in 2011.

When you are 20, and learn you need to fork over $2000 and take a battery of psych tests to reverse an ADD diagnosis in middle school.. JUST to begin training, its a show stopper.

Happened to a friend of mine. He filled out the application for our club and even sent in the $300 check.


Seriously a date costs more than an hour of flying a 152. Its not that expensive.

If $2,000 is a show-stopper then the total expense of training to get that first job (which will require the medical anyway) is really going to be a show-stopper.

 

[dell30rb]

Maybe a date with a working girl, but that's the only way any kind of date is going to be cheaper than flying. At the end of the day, flying isn't affordable for most people under the age of 35.

So why are you an advocate for the 3rd class medical again? Will it help make flying more affordable

 

[dell30rb]

I think there may be some young people but not "lots of" young people who fall into this category. At least not enough for ALPA to care about. In any case I doubt the people who now belong to ALPA are worried about competition from people who have not yet started learning to fly.

I agree ALPA is probably not thinking about people who have not yet learned to fly. But I do have the idea that they have reason to oppose anything that would strengthen GA. More GA means increased traffic and more people ending up in the professional pilot world.

 

[Everskyward]

I agree ALPA is probably not thinking about people who have not yet learned to fly. But I do have the idea that they have reason to oppose anything that would strengthen GA. More GA means increased traffic and more people ending up in the professional pilot world.

I agree that there might be a little increased traffic but I still don't think it will increase the number of professional pilots who might be seen as competition.

I am all for eliminating the third class medical. I just don't think the reason ALPA is opposed includes fear of more competing pilots being produced because those pilots still need a medical. If it is their fear, I think it's misplaced because I don't think getting rid of the third class medical will have that effect.

 

[RotorDude]

I agree ALPA is probably not thinking about people who have not yet learned to fly. But I do have the idea that they have reason to oppose anything that would strengthen GA. More GA means increased traffic and more people ending up in the professional pilot world.

If I had to guess, I'd say their opposition is based on trying to reduce the frequency and airspace congestion in "Indian country", hoping to reduce hassle, delays and collision risk.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

So why are you an advocate for the 3rd class medical again? Will it help make flying more affordable

I'm not advocating the 3rd class medical, as much as I'm advocating congress to get out of small minor issues, all started because one jackoff congressman couldn't read a NOTAM.

That and I don't want to share IFR airspace with people who have no medical requirement to be there. You want a 3rd class medical exemption to fly VFR, 6 seats or less, under 10K feet in D/E airspace, I'm good for that.

 

[docmirror]

That and I don't want to share IFR airspace with people who have no medical requirement to be there. You want a 3rd class medical exemption to fly VFR, 6 seats or less, under 10K feet in D/E airspace, I'm good for that.

Houston - we have a problem.

Can you expand on a 'medical requirement' to be in IFR, vs VFR? I don't really get that.

Sounds to me like a version of ALPA v GA, but with your own personal twist; 'GTFO of my(IMC) airspace you lowly VFR spooge'.

 

[MichiPilot]

I'm not advocating the 3rd class medical, as much as I'm advocating congress to get out of small minor issues, all started because one jackoff congressman couldn't read a NOTAM.

That and I don't want to share IFR airspace with people who have no medical requirement to be there. You want a 3rd class medical exemption to fly VFR, 6 seats or less, under 10K feet in D/E airspace, I'm good for that.

What's the difference if its IFR or VFR? Come on...

 

[dell30rb]

That and I don't want to share IFR airspace with people who have no medical requirement to be there. You want a 3rd class medical exemption to fly VFR, 6 seats or less, under 10K feet in D/E airspace, I'm good for that.

Has pilot incapacitation ever lead to a midair collision? In IMC?


There are millions of hours of flight time over the US and worldwide, all fatal accidents recorded and investigated for decades and analyzed in the effort to improve safety. We know the problem areas and this is not one of them. Hell this type of accident you are afraid of may never have happened in the recorded history of flight.

 

[frfly172]

Just more proof that the high and mighty airline pilots,don't want anyone flying in their airspace. They don't mind coming to GA for support when they are challenged. The truth is they may have a point ,when talking IFR,the GA pilot has to be on his game ,the airline pilot has systems to fly the aircraft to a landing,without their input.guess they don't remember where they started.

 

[Fearless Tower]

What's the difference if its IFR or VFR? Come on...

Sequencing and spacing.

 

[MichiPilot]

Sequencing and spacing.

A cursory medical exam has an impact on judging one's ability to be sequenced?

 

[Fearless Tower]

I just don't think the reason ALPA is opposed includes fear of more competing pilots being produced because those pilots still need a medical. If it is their fear, I think it's misplaced because I don't think getting rid of the third class medical will have that effect.

You are correct.

But when you are lobbying to congress critters, which argument is likely to get more lawmakers on your side:
A) "we don't want airliners full of women and children sharing airspace with people who might be hiding medical problems"

Or

B) "we want to limit the amount of GA in the system so that it doesn't get in the way of future expansion"

 

[Fearless Tower]

A cursory medical exam has an impact on judging one's ability to be sequenced?

Not at all. But allowing non-medical pilots to file and fly IFR does not jive with their previously stated goal (as indicated by their support for user fees) of reducing the amount of GA traffic in the IFR system.

 

[Bob Noel]

If $2,000 is a show-stopper then the total expense of training to get that first job (which will require the medical anyway) is really going to be a show-stopper.

It's not necessarily the $2000 itself but rather the amount of money that is over and above the cost of training.

 

[paflyer]

You want a 3rd class medical exemption to fly VFR, 6 seats or less, under 10K feet in D/E airspace, I'm good for that.

That's mighty White of you.

 

[Kritchlow]

That's mighty White of you.

Huh? Because someone has a different opinion than yours?

 

[EdFred]

Huh? Because someone has a different opinion than yours?

No, because his opinion is elitist. He already said he doesn't want to share his airspace - like the airspace only belongs to the 121ers.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Huh? Because someone has a different opinion than yours?

I think the race card is the new Godwin.

 

[Kritchlow]

No, because his opinion is elitist. He already said he doesn't want to share his airspace - like the airspace only belongs to the 121ers.

I he didn't want to share simply because someone wasn't part 121, that would be one thing. But, he has a reasonable argument for not wanting to share the airspace.

 

[EdFred]

I he didn't want to share simply because someone wasn't part 121, that would be one thing. But, he has a reasonable argument for not wanting to share the airspace.

Sport pilot can already fly in B/C, can they not? But hey, he got his, everyone else can go **** themselves.

 

[Everskyward]

It's not necessarily the $2000 itself but rather the amount of money that is over and above the cost of training.

But they will need to pay that anyway if they intend to fly for a living since the proposal is only for the third class medical, not all medicals, to go away. I'm guessing dell30rb's point is that they will get hooked on flying, want to make it a career, then spend the $2,000 which won't seem like as big a hurdle at that point. That may happen with a few young people but I doubt it will happen with many.

 

[Kritchlow]

Sport pilot can already fly in B/C, can they not?

Sure...

I personally don't have much of a problem with it. That said, we also need to remember the guys like John Travolta flying large airplanes in class A. Arnold Palmer actually sold his C750 and announced he would fly Sport because he no longer wanted a medical. If he didn't need one he still may be flying the 750. Granted, it's not like there's tons of those guys, but there are some.

 

[EdFred]

But they will need to pay that anyway if they intend to fly for a living since the proposal is only for the third class medical, not all medicals, to go away. I'm guessing dell30rb's point is that they will get hooked on flying, want to make it a career, then spend the $2,000 which won't seem like as big a hurdle at that point. That may happen with a few young people but I doubt it will happen with many.

What if they don't want to fly for a living? I never did. Still don't, but if I would have had to fork out an additional $2000 to start training, I wouldn't have started. I wouldn't have ignited the fire in my dad. He wouldn't have started flying. 6Y9 would have been forever closed, there wouldn't be a GA liaison to the state, the RAF would be missing a member, North Fox island wouldn't have been reopened, the next airport he has coming down the pipe wouldn't be reopening, Clint would have never gotten his make-a-wish flight, etc...

 

[EdFred]

Sure...

I personally don't have much of a problem with it. That said, we also need to remember the guys like John Travolta flying large airplanes in class A. Arnold Palmer actually sold his C750 and announced he would fly Sport because he no longer wanted a medical. If he didn't need one he still may be flying the 750. Granted, it's not like there's tons of those guys, but there are some.

I wasn't aware the amendment allowed flights in class A airspace withou a medical, or flying >12,500lbs

 

[Everskyward]

What if they don't want to fly for a living? I never did. Still don't, but if I would have had to fork out an additional $2000 to start training, I wouldn't have started. I wouldn't have ignited the fire in my dad. He wouldn't have started flying. 6Y9 would have been forever closed, there wouldn't be a GA liaison to the state, the RAF would be missing a member, North Fox island wouldn't have been reopened, the next airport he has coming down the pipe wouldn't be reopening, Clint would have never gotten his make-a-wish flight, etc...

I said in a previous post that I am not against getting rid of the third class medical. I'm only questioning someone's interpretation of ALPA's logic. The pilots are not going to end up with more competition if it goes away.

 

[EdFred]

I said in a previous post that I am not against getting rid of the third class medical. I'm only questioning someone's interpretation of ALPA's logic. The pilots are not going to end up with more competition if it goes away.

That I do agree with. The third class medical will not have any effect on the number of getting paid to fly pilots.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Sport pilot can already fly in B/C, can they not? But hey, he got his, everyone else can go **** themselves.

If I felt that way, I'd be advocating a more restrictive medical system, as well as huge user fees. I spent enough time flying cross country on the low ARTCC frequencies, to know that there are a lot of weekend warrior types that don't belong in the air period. But hey, deregulate the whole GA flying business, what do I care.

The ironic thing is, the champion of all these FAA reforms is a moron who couldn't read NOTAMs, then proceed to operate careless and recklessly, but got off because he has more money than the rest of us.

 

[nddons]

So because the medical experts don't want to do something, to hell with the knowledge they have, ignore them? Truly the American way these days, you get the info you don't want, f'it, I'll do what I want.

It's no wonder GA is dying, it's mostly full of crotchety old white men.

Which medical experts are those? The ones in Oklahoma City who's livelihood relies in part with processing 500,000 class III medicals? The ones who say prostate cancer required an SI, but now it doesn't, and who now are creating a new demon with sleep apnea and who think that THEY are more qualified than our own physicians to require an expensive sleep study? Those independent, altruistic medical experts?