Airbus A320 Down

Easier than commercial aircraft to remove the crew? Nope. The ships remain on station for weeks or months at a time so routine maintenance is required along with refilling food and fuel stores. They make their own water. I won't even get into the repairs required but I will say that it's impressive when an EMD comes from together spontaneously.
I wasn't really too curious about the crew. I realize that some of those jobs aren't easily replaced, just like you would still have flight attendants on the theoretical unmanned airliner. I was more curious about the "watchstander" position, and how easily that could be replaced vice an airline pilot.
 
The first fully automated airliners will fly little boxes into Memphis every night.
I agree. The first proving ground would be cargo aircraft. I don't know about Memphis, though. I think the first autonomous airplane airports will be on the coasts where they don't have to fly over large tracts of the U.S. Even with this, I think we are a long way off. Again, mostly due to economic reasons. I'd Boeing going to develop a twin engine widebody freighter just to replace the 100 or so 777Fs in service if they don't know if the passenger airlines will sign on to buy the passenger models of those airplanes.

If it happens, I'm sure it will go something like:
1. Single pilot cargo ops
2. Single pilot passenger ops
3. Autonomous cargo
4. Autonomous passenger

And I really still have my reservations about the last two in viability, both technically and economically.

Single pilot ops would be more of a reality, but I'm thinking that has an event horizon of over 20 years from now.
 
I wasn't really too curious about the crew. I realize that some of those jobs aren't easily replaced, just like you would still have flight attendants on the theoretical unmanned airliner. I was more curious about the "watchstander" position, and how easily that could be replaced vice an airline pilot.

I'm curious how many FA's would sign up to be cargo an an unmanned airliner?
 
I doubt the passengers on Qantas QF32 would still be living if the aircraft had been piloted by Henning's automaton, nor is it the only example of such an incident. It took the combined knowledge and talent of five pilots to overcome the emergency.

QF32: How highest standards in piloting again saved Qantas

The final ATSB report on QF32 clinically describes the actions of the pilots, on the day augmented by a check captain and a supervising check captain, as well as a captain, a first officer and a second officer, and gives them recognition for judgement, team work, focus and the successful return of the A380 with no injury to anyone on board in a jet which showed itself to have an exceptional resistance to an extraordinary range of structural damage caused by debris flung off by the uncontained engine failure.

Top piloting standards not only saved QF32, an A380, but in recent years a Qantas A330 and two Qantas 747-400s. Which is the unstated safety message from the ATSB’s final report into the QF32 incident.

They are the saving of a large number of lives by highly experienced, but undervalued pilots, in an airliner stricken by a massive structural crisis.

In each aircraft, the airliner suffered significant systems and control damage never anticipated in any emergency scenarios, which the pilots had to identify and respond to out of the blue.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...est-standards-in-piloting-again-saved-qantas/

When an aircraft is being piloted autonomously, depending on sensors and such to make decisions, how will it respond to damage like this, which occurred when the #2 engine on QF32 suffered an uncontained failure?

Read through the list of alarms and conditions the pilots had to contend with in the link below. Would an automated system have responded to save the day? I emphatically say no.

http://blog.flightstory.net/1585/qantas-qf32-preliminary-report/

qantas-qf32-electrical-wiring-damage.jpg


qantas-qf32-engine-damage.jpg
 
I doubt the passengers on Qantas QF32 would still be living if the aircraft had been piloted by Henning's automaton, nor is it the only example of such an incident. It took the combined knowledge and talent of five pilots to overcome the emergency.





http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetal...est-standards-in-piloting-again-saved-qantas/

When an aircraft is being piloted autonomously, depending on sensors and such to make decisions, how will it respond to damage like this, which occurred when the #2 engine on QF32 suffered an uncontained failure?

Read through the list of alarms and conditions the pilots had to contend with in the link below. Would an automated system have responded to save the day? I emphatically say no.

http://blog.flightstory.net/1585/qantas-qf32-preliminary-report/

qantas-qf32-electrical-wiring-damage.jpg


qantas-qf32-engine-damage.jpg
...and that is where automated systems tank. Decisions can only be made based on the data being provided to the system. Once things happen "that should never happen" the automated logic is going to make very poor decisions that would conflict with what a human would decide to do.

Until a major breakthrough happens in computer science I don't see automated airliners with no flight crew happening. I'd be surprised if such a breakthrough would happen in my lifetime.
 
Read through the list of alarms and conditions the pilots had to contend with in the link below. Would an automated system have responded to save the day.

A computer would have had a much easier time sorting through the errors.

Maybe humans saved that quantas flight otoh humans downed both the AF A330 and the dash-8 at Buffalo.
 
I doubt the passengers on Qantas QF32 would still be living if the aircraft had been piloted by Henning's automaton...
It's questionable as to whether or not the outcome would have been the same it there had been an average crew on that flight as well. It is a textbook example of CRM, crew coordination, task shedding and delegation. My hat is off to the crew for their actions.

Now...shall we discuss examples where the passengers might have *survived* if there had been an automaton in the cockpit, or even an average crew? There has been at least one referenced in this thread.

I'm not passing judgement nor am I expressing a preference one way or the other. Just pointing out that there are many examples of both situations.

Nauga,
who understands the risks
 
If it happens, I'm sure it will go something like:
1. Single pilot cargo ops
2. Single pilot passenger ops
3. Autonomous cargo
4. Autonomous passenger

Only a question of time until there is a single pilot approval for a cargo jet, probably once A320s trickle into cargo service. Next step is autonomous freight with a monitoring pilot. 5 years in they will eliminate the pilot as the only accidents Iin autonomous mode were caused by monitoring pilotinteerference (trying to be a hero).
 
...and that is where automated systems tank. Decisions can only be made based on the data being provided to the system. Once things happen "that should never happen" the automated logic is going to make very poor decisions that would conflict with what a human would decide to do.

Until a major breakthrough happens in computer science...
Are you familiar with adaptive/reconfigurable control architectures and do you follow the research? There *have* been breakthroughs in recent years regarding robust and adaptive control and autonomy. It's still a long way from the transport cockpit but there has been considerable progress. There are weapons flying with these architectures today and there have been flight demonstrations of drastic failures and undefined (in the control law sense) configuration changes, like wing sections departing, etc) on UAVs and RPVs.

Let me repeat, it's still a long way from commercial transports, but the technology is out there. One of the major hurdles is convincing the regulatory authorities that a non-deterministic system can be proven safe for flight. Pilots, of course, are also non-deterministic, but traditionally we consider them more predictable than machines. Sometimes we're wrong.

Nauga,
who can't scan as fast as HAL
 
Don't forget UA232 in Sioux City, IA. Few automated machines could have accomplished what those guys did.
 
...and a dog. ;)

Nauga,
and his LSO seeing-eye dog relocation plan :rofl:

Thanks for saving me finding the cartoon. I've been thinking about it for, oh, 4-5 pages of this thread.

John
 
Only a question of time until there is a single pilot approval for a cargo jet, probably once A320s trickle into cargo service.

That's not happening anytime soon either. Airbus developed a program for converting A320's into freighters, then scrapped it due to the high demand for passenger models.

They already build a A330 factory freighter, but I don't see any of the major players buying them in hopes of making one single pilot.
 
Don't forget UA232 in Sioux City, IA. Few automated machines could have accomplished what those guys did.
At the time with then-current technology, I agree. With today's technology it is not a tremendous hurdle to have provisions for propulsion control, manual, aided, or autonomous.

That does not in any way detract from what those guys did.

Folks, do not in any way assume that what's in the current fleet is bleeding-edge technology or even current state-of-the art. Guidance, navigation, and control research continues at a rapid pace, even if you don't read about it on AvWeb, in AvWeek, or in whatever IT journal you read. If you want to know what's happening in GNC and autonomy, spend some time reviewing IEEE, AIAA, ACGSC, and ACC materials. Bring your calculus book ;)

Nauga,
the control allocator
 
Single pilot ops would be more of a reality, but I'm thinking that has an event horizon of over 20 years from now.

I would think that the crash that's the subject of this thread would have driven a stake through the heart of the single pilot airliner idea.
 
I would think that the crash that's the subject of this thread would have driven a stake through the heart of the single pilot airliner idea.
I wouldn't be so sure, actually the reverse might be true. Let's not forget that the 'single pilot' idea is predicated on the ability to control aircraft from ground.
 
Automated airliners will still have a watch-stander, mostly there to keep the self-loading cargo placated and as a backup if the data connection breaks down...

Wasn't it recently decided that airline pilots need to do more hand flying to maintain proficiency? If one of the watch-stander's roles is as a backup pilot, how does he/she maintain proficiency?

Also, since the backup pilot could go nuts, the potential for what just happened in the Alps is reintroduced, thus negating this thread's motivation for automating the plane.
 
One of the limitations of any kind of automation is that it can only react within the parameters in which it was designed. That's why many systems will throw an alarm or go into alternate law, "conditions have just exceeded my ability to control them...your airplane."

As soon as the first "unable, say intentions" comes across, automation quickly reaches its limit.

The AF flight went into the ocean when the automation couldn't understand the inputs. Turns out the humans in that case weren't any better. Automation would have failed completely in Sioux City because it could not have been designed to have reacted to a situation so far outside anything a designer would have considered. The flight crew adapted, improvised, and overcame. We have a very long way to go before automation can do that.

Airliner, and GA, automation has come along at an incredible pace, Moore's Law is working. In cases now, an airline flight crew may hand fly for only a few minutes per flight. Maybe, in the near future, the aircraft will taxi, takeoff, cruise and land unassisted - under human command and supervision. But a human will still have to be part of the loop, even if it's just for the SHF moments.
 
Wasn't it recently decided that airline pilots need to do more hand flying to maintain proficiency? If one of the watch-stander's roles is as a backup pilot, how does he/she maintain proficiency?

We have something called a "CRP" (Cruise Relief Pilot) for long trips when we are expected to exceed 8 hours of flying. These guys are low time MPL's (Multi Pilot License) pilots with very little flight time and experience. They can only take a pilot's seat above FL200, they are not allowed to fly approaches, Land or Take Off. For currency they go to the simulator to get their take off, approaches and landings.

So sort of what you describe is already out there.
 
I wouldn't be so sure, actually the reverse might be true. Let's not forget that the 'single pilot' idea is predicated on the ability to control aircraft from ground.

I don't understand your reasoning there.
 
A computer would have had a much easier time sorting through the errors.

Maybe humans saved that quantas flight otoh humans downed both the AF A330 and the dash-8 at Buffalo.

Did you see the photo of shredded wiring? Did you read the linked story detailing the spurious and incorrect annunciations from the ECAM? The autonomous system can't operate without inputs to guide decision making.

For the autonomous system to work, every possible failure mode must be considered in the software programming. That in itself is an impossible task. It just can't be done.
 
One of the limitations of any kind of automation is that it can only react within the parameters in which it was designed. That's why many systems will throw an alarm or go into alternate law, "conditions have just exceeded my ability to control them...your airplane."

As soon as the first "unable, say intentions" comes across, automation quickly reaches its limit.

The AF flight went into the ocean when the automation couldn't understand the inputs. Turns out the humans in that case weren't any better. Automation would have failed completely in Sioux City because it could not have been designed to have reacted to a situation so far outside anything a designer would have considered. The flight crew adapted, improvised, and overcame. We have a very long way to go before automation can do that.

Airliner, and GA, automation has come along at an incredible pace, Moore's Law is working. In cases now, an airline flight crew may hand fly for only a few minutes per flight. Maybe, in the near future, the aircraft will taxi, takeoff, cruise and land unassisted - under human command and supervision. But a human will still have to be part of the loop, even if it's just for the SHF moments.

I agree. I think automatically covering the SHF moments will take decades, if not longer, and will require a quantum leap in computer science and artificial intelligence.
 
Folks, do not in any way assume at's in the current fleet is bleeding-edge technology or even current state-of-the art. Guidance, navigation, and control research continues at a rapid pace, even if you don't read about it on AvWeb, in AvWeek, or in whatever IT journal you read. If you want to know what's happening in GNC and autonomy, spend some time reviewing IEEE, AIAA, ACGSC, and ACC materials. Bring your calculus book ;)

The first autonomous freight mover will look more like a MQ4 than a passenger jet. We can send a Global Hawk to fly thousands of miles, loiter for 12 hrs and return to base but somehow moving 5 tons of parcels from Sioux Falls to Memphis at 10 pm is supposed to be a problem ?

I dont see a pilotless passenger airliner happening, but autonomous freight movers will happen in my lifetime.
 
The first autonomous freight mover will look more like a MQ4 than a passenger jet. We can send a Global Hawk to fly thousands of miles, loiter for 12 hrs and return to base but somehow moving 5 tons of parcels from Sioux Falls to Memphis at 10 pm is supposed to be a problem ?

I dont see a pilotless passenger airliner happening, but autonomous freight movers will happen in my lifetime.

Until one goes plowing through a subdivision in the middle of the night. :rolleyes:
 
Until one goes plowing through a subdivision in the middle of the night. :rolleyes:

Airlines have done that a couple of times and we haven't outlawed them yet. It'll be a 'great tragedy' and a lawsuit but within a week the population Is back to the kardashians or their Iphone 12.

Once ADS-B is universal, there wont even be an issue with those pesky human controlled GA aircraft.
 
Airlines have done that a couple of times and we haven't outlawed them yet. It'll be a 'great tragedy' and a lawsuit but within a week the population Is back to the kardashians or their Iphone 12.

Once ADS-B is universal, there wont even be an issue with those pesky human controlled GA aircraft.

Personally it will be many years down the road before you see a cockpit reduced to one pilot, and many more before it's remote controlled.
 
Personally it will be many years down the road before you see a cockpit reduced to one pilot, and many more before it's remote controlled.

Right now, metroliners are flown single pilot in night freight operations by ameriflight and others. Why do we think a reconfigured E195 couldnt haul parcels Iin SP operation onve the airlines are done with them ?
 
Right now, metroliners are flown single pilot in night freight operations by ameriflight and others. Why do we think a reconfigured E195 couldnt haul parcels Iin SP operation onve the airlines are done with them ?

I'm typed in a SA-227 Metroliner as a single pilot. Honestly, there is no way in hell I would fly that plane by myself as it's a handful on a V1 cut.

As far as single piloting a E195, you'll need to go to DC and the FAA HQ and pitch your argument. From my knowledge you're gonna have a heck of a time convincing them. :rolleyes:

I've never flown the E195, but in an abnormal or emergency when you are working the QRH, who will get up out of their seat to pull a breaker if you are single pilot?
 
We have something called a "CRP" (Cruise Relief Pilot) for long trips when we are expected to exceed 8 hours of flying. These guys are low time MPL's (Multi Pilot License) pilots with very little flight time and experience. They can only take a pilot's seat above FL200, they are not allowed to fly approaches, Land or Take Off. For currency they go to the simulator to get their take off, approaches and landings.

So sort of what you describe is already out there.


So this is the "entry level" position at Asian airlines, with the next step being a "regular" FO?
 
So this is the "entry level" position at Asian airlines, with the next step being a "regular" FO?

Not really. Depending on the carrier, it's almost impossible to get out of the CRP position. They will hire FO's ahead of the CRP's (called "SO's" by some) and put them in the right seat.
 
As far as single piloting a E195, you'll need to go to DC and the FAA HQ and pitch your argument. From my knowledge you're gonna have a heck of a time convincing them. :rolleyes:

I am not UPS or Fedex. They want a rule they get a rule.

I've never flown the E195, but in an abnormal or emergency when you are working the QRH, who will get up out of their seat to pull a breaker if you are single pilot?

How could you ever fly a 747 without a flight engineer ?

Breakers, what a quaint concept. Part of the SP conversion can be an upgrade of the electrical that dispenses with manual breakers. I dont think the Legacy 500 has anybreakers to pull.
 
I am not UPS or Fedex. They want a rule they get a rule.[/qoute]

If that was the case it would have happened or be in the works.

How could you ever fly a 747 without a flight engineer ?.

Ever seen the difference between a Classic 747 cockpit and a -400 cockpit? :rolleyes: Have you actually been in either one of these cockpits?

Breakers, what a quaint concept. Part of the SP conversion can be an upgrade of the electrical that dispenses with manual breakers. I dont think the Legacy 500 has anybreakers to pull.

Nauga has gone into some good explanations on this. You do realize that there is just a bit more than removing the breakers and splicing wires don't you? You do realize the purpose for those breakers?
 
Ever seen the difference between a Classic 747 cockpit and a -400 cockpit? :rolleyes: Have you actually been in either one of these cockpits?

I have been in both. The upgrades eliminated the need for a FE. Further uogrades can eliminate the FO.


Nauga has gone into some good explanations on this. You do realize that there is just a bit more than removing the breakers and splicing wires don't you? You do realize the purpose for those breakers?

Electronically controlled breakers are available. They are widely used in current generation bizjets. No reason the bus system on legacy aircraft can't be upgraded.
 
Electronically controlled breakers are available. They are widely used in current generation bizjets. No reason the bus system on legacy aircraft can't be upgraded.

We have them on my Tank and I HATE them! Nothing like reaching over and checking / resetting breakers by feel. If you need to divert your attention from the task at hand to read a display in a high pressure situation..... you're dead.
 
The first autonomous freight mover will look more like a MQ4 than a passenger jet. We can send a Global Hawk to fly thousands of miles, loiter for 12 hrs and return to base but somehow moving 5 tons of parcels from Sioux Falls to Memphis at 10 pm is supposed to be a problem ?

I dont see a pilotless passenger airliner happening, but autonomous freight movers will happen in my lifetime.
And you do realize that these military RPAs are crashing at an outstanding rate. I have buds who fly them when their Guard units converted over from a flying squadron to an RPA squadron. These guys are the most ardent believers that we won't be flying around pilotless aircraft anytime soon. They see day in and day out what it takes to get one of these things airborne and keep it airborne, both in manpower and money. It's staggering.

The reason nobody hears about RPA crashed is that no one cares, but if these drones were crashing in the United States instead of some Afghan mountainside, I think the Amerian public would be thinking differently.
 
I have been in both. The upgrades eliminated the need for a FE. Further uogrades can eliminate the FO.




Electronically controlled breakers are available. They are widely used in current generation bizjets. No reason the bus system on legacy aircraft can't be upgraded.

Go ask Sluggo what it was like whenFedEx "upgraded" their -10's to the MD-10 configuration. :rolleyes:

Nauga has tried to explain why the current generation is still far away from you guys dream of pilotless aircraft.

Now, for a real improvement we need computers that will take an Xray of a human and read it with pin point accuracy. Think of all the malpractice of Doctors this will eliminate! :rolleyes:
 
And you do realize that these military RPAs are crashing at an outstanding rate. I have buds who fly them when their Guard units converted over from a flying squadron to an RPA squadron. These guys are the most ardent believers that we won't be flying around pilotless aircraft anytime soon. They see day in and day out what it takes to get one of these things airborne and keep it airborne, both in manpower and money. It's staggering.

The reason nobody hears about RPA crashed is that no one cares, but if these drones were crashing in the United States instead of some Afghan mountainside, I think the Amerian public would be thinking differently.

UAS are in the equivalent of the 1920s of aviation. The mail planes crashed al the time, barnstormers didnt live long either. I know some of the ANG drone drivers. A military UAS needs a crew of 2.5 because the mlitary wants to watch something or shoot at stuff. Very different from flying 5 tons of boxes on the same route from Sioux Falls to Memphis every night. Someone who looked at aviation in the 1920s wouldn't have been able to predict jet travel of the 1950s.

The Fedex caravans, cessna Titans, Queen Airs and other small planes that crisscross the night sky also crash with some regularity. It shows up in the pilots hometown paper, thats pretty much it.
 
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