Airbus A320 Down

cowman said:
Purely out of curiosity if some pilot on his last flight wanted to have a bit of fun before he retired and did some extremely unauthorized aerobatics before brining the aircraft in for a completely safe landing what would the consequences be?
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I'd guess he'd be fired, lose his retirement (maybe), lose his tickets, be sued by his passengers. I don't know, but I'm guessing one or all of the above.
 
MD500C said:
Just to bring it back a little on topic... We will probably see a rollout of cockpit cameras with live telemetry including all black box info, etc. via satellite links soon. Surprised this is not in place already actually.
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weilke said:
What we will see is that most airlines will subscribe to location and datalink services so we dont lose another aircraft.
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The ICAO and other industry groups are formulating standards for live position reporting of airliners right now. Once they agree upon the implementation, a time schedule will be promulgated.

There have been articles about this subject in several Aviation Week and Space Technology issues in the last few months.
 
Sluggo63 said:
About what?
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That the general public favors pilotless airliners right now. Since it's a question no one has asked it's a moot point, but the premise is ridiculous.

As for it being completely implemented industrywide 'in the next 20 years', that's also nonsense.
 
RotorAndWing said:
More appropriate, what about boat cleaners? :rolleyes:
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Nope, that will always take humans. Repair and service of the equipment, diagnostics... Same as every industry, that's what we're good at, tinkering. Growing food, and servicing automation, that is where future employment growth is. And it's good that way as it uses the minimum human time and effort to accomplish the same results.
 
Sluggo63 said:
What pushback?

If someone could tell me how cameras would prevent this from happening, I'd be glad to listen.

I think security theater is ridiculous. All cameras will do is give the news media the hyped up version of the televised 911 call. "Just watch as the pilots furiously work hard to save this aircraft... the following video contains content that may not be suitable for young viewers..."

440,000 malpractice deaths in the US alone in 2013.
There were 224 airline deaths world-wide in 2013.

If you want to save lives, have a camera installed in every OR in the US. Spend the money there. You want to see push-back... wait until the AMA learns about your plan to keep Americans safe.
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Well.. Knowing a camera is watching the front office crew will add the "guilt" factor on every flight.....

You are on video as you drive down the street, go into ANY store, ANY bank, as you go through airport security, when you are pulled over by the police.. etc etc etc.... Also, a real time camera would have saved France, Germany, the airlines hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars over the last few days trying to figure out what the hell happened...

A video would have disclosed the dirty deed in real time....

So.. I guess my question to all the airline pilots screaming NO Cameras in the cockpit..

If you guys/gals are going by the book and doing NOTHING wrong... What the hell are you scared of ..:dunno::dunno::dunno::confused::confused:
 
N801BH said:
Well.. Knowing a camera is watching the front office crew will add the "guilt" factor on every flight.....
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So killing 150 people, no problem. Killing 150 people on film... now it's guilt time?

N801BH said:
You are on video as you drive down the street, go into ANY store, ANY bank, as you go through airport security, when you are pulled over by the police.. etc etc etc....
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Right, and I have no problem with that. What I think most pilots have an objection to is that there will be a camera in our workplace watching our every move. I don't know what you do for a living, but would you be comfortable with a camera trained on you as you went about your work day?

N801BH said:
Also, a real time camera would have saved France, Germany, the airlines hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars over the last few days trying to figure out what the hell happened...

A video would have disclosed the dirty deed in real time....
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Ok. I'm with you. Flight 4U9525 had a cockpit camera on and running on the day of 24 March. It records the takeoff and climbout from Barcelona. The plane levels at FL380, and the Captain gets out of the seat. The video shows the FO set the MCP to descend to 100'. He then sets the IRCD switch to deny. then the video shows 8 minutes of FO Lubitz sitting in his seat with his arms folded as the Airbus descends into the Alps. Then the video ends. How did we learn anything or save any money?

N801BH said:
So.. I guess my question to all the airline pilots screaming NO Cameras in the cockpit..

If you guys/gals are going by the book and doing NOTHING wrong... What the hell are you scared of ..:dunno::dunno::dunno::confused::confused:
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Not scared of anything. I try to do everything by the book each time I fly. I never succeed. I've never had a perfect flight. That's fine fine with me. We capture 99% of our errors. I just don't think that it's a justified cost for no added benefit except for titillation.

If you want to sell the idea of cockpit cameras recording video to use in mishap investigation much like a CVR is used, I'll listen. I'm not for the idea, but it's more reasonable than having my every move while I'm working recorded and streamed live for someone to "keep an eye on me." If you trust me to take a $350 million plane plus cargo and fly it around the world safely day in and day out, why do you need to watch me?
 
If they put a bathroom in the cockpit, this could be avoided in the future.
 
Henning said:
I have trouble seeing why pilots think they are so special their job can't be automated? It's delusional in fact in the light of everything that history tells us from the Civil War on. Anything to take the cost of maintaining humans out of the spread sheet happens, period. We already run military drone programs under directed autonomy. Military pilots jobs are already being supplanted by autonomy. Wake up pilots, your cushy career may be about to come to an end.
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Sea captains will be eliminated first. Easier to accomplish with much less risk to the public at large.
 
I work inside large, expensive data centers. There are cameras everywhere. Many of the keystrokes I do are captured in a buffer, and my logon is also known. Forensic examination of video and logs after the fact has helped me show mistakes that people made, and how to resolve them.

My favorite when I was helping to install some new switches was watching the guy roll the crash cart wheels over the fiber cables. Over, and over, and over again. Then the customer installed that bundle of cables, and wondered why it was having trouble. Hmmmmm, lets go to the tape!

I don't work in a life-critical job, like an airline pilot. But - I'm definitely of the opinion that forensic analysis is aided by all the info that can be captured. That Silk 737 roll over might be the example of where video would be useful. Watch the actions of the pilots trying to solve the uncommanded yaw/roll and see if they were driving it into the ground on purpose. Other than that, I don't see an upside for prevention, unless the recording shows some kind of deficient process by a pilot regularly that can be identified and trained out.
 
docmirror said:
I don't work in a life-critical job, like an airline pilot. But - I'm definitely of the opinion that forensic analysis is aided by all the info that can be captured. That Silk 737 roll over might be the example of where video would be useful. Watch the actions of the pilots trying to solve the uncommanded yaw/roll and see if they were driving it into the ground on purpose. Other than that, I don't see an upside for prevention, unless the recording shows some kind of deficient process by a pilot regularly that can be identified and trained out.
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This, I could almost buy. You want to record video, have it archived in the plane along with the CVR audio... I can see some benefit to that. Just like CVR recordings, it shouldn't be releasable to the public, and only used for mishap investigation.

As far as deficient pilots, there are already processes in place to identify that, and processes in place to correct those problems.
 
N801BH said:
Well.. Knowing a camera is watching the front office crew will add the "guilt" factor on every flight.....

You are on video as you drive down the street, go into ANY store, ANY bank, as you go through airport security, when you are pulled over by the police.. etc etc etc.... Also, a real time camera would have saved France, Germany, the airlines hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars over the last few days trying to figure out what the hell happened...

A video would have disclosed the dirty deed in real time....

So.. I guess my question to all the airline pilots screaming NO Cameras in the cockpit..

If you guys/gals are going by the book and doing NOTHING wrong... What the hell are you scared of ..:dunno::dunno::dunno::confused::confused:
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Still, what will it do for things like this? Provide the disgruntled employee a chance to flip off the office as the mountain approaches in the windshield behind them? Do you think piling on more shame and embarrassment is going to help?:rofl:
 
Henning said:
Still, what will it do for things like this? Provide the disgruntled employee a chance to flip off the office as the mountain approaches in the windshield behind them? Do you think piling on more shame and embarrassment is going to help?:rofl:
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And on this... we agree...
 
Sluggo63 said:
....

.....I don't know what you do for a living, but would you be comfortable with a camera trained on you as you went about your work day?

YUP..... I don't have anything to hide...
Let the cameras roll tape.....
Ok. I'm with you. Flight 4U9525 had a cockpit camera on and running on the day of 24 March. It records the takeoff and climbout from Barcelona. The plane levels at FL380, and the Captain gets out of the seat. The video shows the FO set the MCP to descend to 100'. He then sets the IRCD switch to deny. then the video shows 8 minutes of FO Lubitz sitting in his seat with his arms folded as the Airbus descends into the Alps. Then the video ends. How did we learn anything or save any money?

Not scared of anything. I try to do everything by the book each time I fly. I never succeed. I've never had a perfect flight. That's fine fine with me. We capture 99% of our errors. I just don't think that it's a justified cost for no added benefit except for titillation.

If you want to sell the idea of cockpit cameras recording video to use in mishap investigation much like a CVR is used, I'll listen. I'm not for the idea,

Pushback.....

but it's more reasonable than having my every move while I'm working recorded and streamed live for someone to "keep an eye on me." If you trust me to take a $350 million plane plus cargo and fly it around the world safely day in and day out, why do you need to watch me?
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I respect your opinion.. I just disagree with your conclusion...

Ever notice how LEO's LOVE to videotape a traffic stop,, but HATE it when people video them.....

Ya see where I am going with this...:dunno::dunno::dunno::rolleyes:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
If they put a bathroom in the cockpit, this could be avoided in the future.
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That is another point worth bringing up.....

It was a 2 hour flight.... You would think a healthy Captain could take a leak before the flight and be able to hold it till he lands 120 minutes later...:dunno::dunno::confused:
 
LDJones said:
Relief tubes have been around for ages. We'd just need to add the Lady J adapter for modern crews.
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That's not the problem, when you have to punch a grumpy into your flight case, that's when you understand what makes crew close.:rofl:
 
N801BH said:
That is another point worth bringing up.....

It was a 2 hour flight.... You would think a healthy Captain could take a leak before the flight and be able to hold it till he lands 120 minutes later...:dunno::dunno::confused:
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Not if he had a cup of coffee. You guys are talking about reducing cockpit condition to third world, why? Are you that scared of dying?:dunno:
 
One guy, one time, one nut case, in the history of aviation, and we're talking relief tubes.
 
N801BH said:
That is another point worth bringing up.....

It was a 2 hour flight.... You would think a healthy Captain could take a leak before the flight and be able to hold it till he lands 120 minutes later...:dunno::dunno::confused:
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Not if the FO spikes his coffee with visine.
(Read it on the internet, but not impossible.)
 
Matthew said:
Where a crew member locked the door behind the other guy when he went to take a leak, wouldn't let him back in, and augered it in?
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Don't overconstrain the problem space. We're talking about when one dude leaves the cockpit for a reason -- maybe most typically to take a leak.

29 November 2013 – 33 fatalities
LAM Flight 470 entered a rapid descent while en route between Maputo and Luanda and crashed in Namibia. Preliminary investigation results indicate that the accident was intentional. The captain made control inputs that directed the plane to the ground, shortly after the first officer had left the flight deck.
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31 October 1999 – 217 fatalities
Egypt Air Flight 990, a Boeing 767, entered a rapid descent some 30 minutes after departure from New York-JFK Airport. This happened moments after the captain had left the flight deck.
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19 December 1997 – 104 fatalities
Silk Air Flight 185, a Boeing 737 en route from Jakarta, Indonesia to Singapore, crashed in Indonesia following a rapid descent from cruising altitude. Indonesian authorities were not able to determine the cause of the accident. It has been suggested by amongst others the U.S. NTSB that the captain may have committed suicide by switching off both flight recorders and intentionally putting the Boeing 737 in a dive, possibly when the first officer had left the flight deck.
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http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/
 
N801BH said:
Well.. Knowing a camera is watching the front office crew will add the "guilt" factor on every flight.....

You are on video as you drive down the street, go into ANY store, ANY bank, as you go through airport security, when you are pulled over by the police.. etc etc etc.... Also, a real time camera would have saved France, Germany, the airlines hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars over the last few days trying to figure out what the hell happened...

A video would have disclosed the dirty deed in real time....

So.. I guess my question to all the airline pilots screaming NO Cameras in the cockpit..

If you guys/gals are going by the book and doing NOTHING wrong... What the hell are you scared of ..:dunno::dunno::dunno::confused::confused:
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Scared ? That's the wrong word. ****ed off would be more accurate. I'd be happy to do it just as soon as EVERY member of Congress has a full time cam and microphone in his office !!!!
 
We all just need to drink a beer!!!

Was this a tragedy, yes. Can we stop this unthinkable kind of act? Not likely !!

We are talking about .0000001% here and millions of flight hours

99.99999% of the people that I have worked with over the years are true professional Aviators. They care deeply about there profession and safety of their passengers and crew. I think we do a fantastic job. I think a step back and reflect on where we are as a group is in order.

Not many people get to experience what we do. Let's not let the .00001 kick our ass and divide us.

Now go drink that beer. I am.

Steel
 
Pghsteel said:
We all just need to drink a beer!!!

Was this a tragedy, yes. Can we stop this unthinkable kind of act? Not likely !!

We are talking about .0000001% here and millions of flight hours

99.99999% of the people that I have worked with over the years are true professional Aviators. They care deeply about there profession and safety of their passengers and crew. I think we do a fantastic job. I think a step back and reflect on where we are as a group is in order.

Not many people get to experience what we do. Let's not let the .00001 kick our ass and divide us.

Now go drink that beer. I am.

Steel
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I was thinking a similar thing once we kinda found out how this went down. We can plan for a lot of things, we can eliminate a lot of the little bubbles that float up and smack us, we can refine, and filter, and prognosticate on most all situations but at some point, one small seam will give out, and the pressure vessel with all our fancy planning and design will fail. Our systems approach has reduced failure rates to very small percentages, and while there's room for improvement, there really is very little room to improve on the human factors. At the end of the day, we are all meat-sacks bloviating through life, bumping into limits all the time.

So, now EU flights are going to have the two-man(gender neutral) program. So, we put a 120Lb FA in the cockpit, and the pilot bent on destruction grabs a truncheon/sap or something and WHAM! g-night, then goes about his business. There's always a way, when dealing with humans.
 
docmirror said:
So, now EU flights are going to have the two-man(gender neutral) program. So, we put a 120Lb FA in the cockpit, and the pilot bent on destruction grabs a truncheon/sap or something and WHAM! g-night, then goes about his business. There's always a way, when dealing with humans.
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Easy. When one pilot wants to leave, they will be required to set the autopilot and both will have to leave at the same time so NO ONE is able to crash the plane. They will only be able to re-enter with HAL's permission, of course.
 
Pghsteel said:
Was this a tragedy, yes. Can we stop this unthinkable kind of act? Not likely !!
l
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Neither electronics nor changes to the door will prevent this from happening. Awareness of mental illness and astute colleagues who pick up if someone has 'lost it' may prevent this.

3 years ago, a JetBlue captain suffered a partial complex seizure and became psychotic during a flight from New York to Las Vegas. He left the cockpit and was subsequently locked out by the first officer. When the psychotic captain tried to reenter the cockpit by entering the emergency code, the very feature that allowed Lubitz to lock out his captain allowed the FO on the JetBlue flight to protect himself from the raging psychotic captain. after a number of corrections officers who were in the cabin restrained the captainthe flight landed at Amarillo.

Ironically the captain is suing JetBlue claiming that the airline should have known that he was crazy when he showed up dissheveled and late the morning of the flight.
 
Matthew said:
Where a crew member locked the door behind the other guy when he went to take a leak, wouldn't let him back in, and augered it in?
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No, where suicidal pilots took out the flight. The cabin circumstances are irrelevant, I fully grant that. There is nothing to be done in the way of aircraft or operational proceedure that will have any effect on this. This is a human resources issue, and it lies with the governing bodies to change their attitude to seeking counseling, reversing their perceived position of 'extremely limited' to 'encouraged', and then the company requiring monthly stress counselling sessions, and the Union Health and Welfare office implementing the program. Now once a month he comes in and talks for half an hour (or more if they feel like it) with the union's stress counselor, or they can provide proof of requirement from their own personally chosen counselor.

Right now the system (and our greater culture at large) is loaded to prevent the borderline person from seeking help, and that just accelerates the problem, and until the industry changes that, this problem cannot be addressed.

When you change the stigma and and change the access from forbidden to required, then not only do you give the pilots the tools they need to prevent this, you also put them in front of a professional observer who is mandated to report when a certain hazard threshold is met.
 
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9/11 knee jerk reaction .....is a factor in this crash.

There needs to be override from Captain or FO.....maybe a key....thumbprint....nfc from mobile device...while taking a leak.

2 in cockpit......is laughable....if this guy was hell bent on crashing....1 punch to the face of the stewardess....job still completed.

Not sure much could be done here.....with the policies in place.
 
N801BH said:
Also, a real time camera would have saved France, Germany, the airlines hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars over the last few days trying to figure out what the hell happened...
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[emphasis added] :eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ever consider what it would take to telemeter real-time imagery from every airliner in the air at any given moment? The cost of implementation, tracking, and monitoring alone, not to mention design and development of the kind of bandwidth needed, would not *save* anyone "hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars."

Or do you thing they'd just watch the recorded video, make their conclusions, and leave the wreckage where it sits?

Nauga,
and false economy
 
nauga said:
[emphasis added] :eek::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ever consider what it would take to telemeter real-time imagery from every airliner in the air at any given moment? The cost of implementation, tracking, and monitoring alone, not to mention design and development of the kind of bandwidth needed, would not *save* anyone "hundreds of thousands, if not a few million dollars."

Or do you thing they'd just watch the recorded video, make their conclusions, and leave the wreckage where it sits?

Nauga,
and false economy
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Ok let's say video in cockpit....what would we have seen that we don't already know....

A SIC manipulating controls .....to the crash site.

Agree Nauga.

(Might make a few bucks on YouTube though)sad reality
 
There is one cockpit camera technology I see beneficial in another capacity though, and that is sleep sensing. Facial recognition technology and a little dash cam can sense when a pilot starts dozing and give them a wake up tone. Doesn't need any recording technology to be functional really. You can probably build the whole rig for $250 + software.
 
FastEddieB said:
I'm honestly trying to think of him as little as possible since his last disgusting comments.
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:thumbsup:
 
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