Airbus A320 Down

charheep said:
Another thoughts. Something HUGE would have to keep him focused for 8 whole minutes to commit suicide without chickening out. 30 seconds or so I could see. But to maintain that you are going to die and take all the lives with you for 8 solid minutes without changing your mind is a long time.
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I would wager you've never done diving rocket fire or a prolonged gun run on a target. There exists a phenoma known as Target Fixation/Fascination whereby the closer you get to the target the stronger the urge to fly right into it becomes. He picked out those mountains and then an individual mountain and then a mountainside and bit by bit became that mountainside.
 
RotorDude said:
With more than 1500 flight hours, I would think the chances for hidden psychological issues to be exposed are higher. This guy had 630 hrs or so.
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My understand is that was what he had at hire in 2013. I would not be surprised if he had been passed up for an upgrade recently.
 
Art VanDelay said:
I would wager you've never done diving rocket fire or a prolonged gun run on a target. There exists a phenoma known as Target Fixation/Fascination whereby the closer you get to the target the stronger the urge to fly right into it becomes. He picked out those mountains and then an individual mountain and then a mountainside and bit by bit became that mountainside.
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Damn sure can happen shooting 2.75's...
 
If the motivation had been political, someone would likely have issued a political statement. If the goal had been to kill as many people as possible, the pilot would likely have tried for a populated target.

I'd guess he just wanted a reliable, painless, instantaneous death, perhaps with total bodily obliteration, in physical comfort until the moment of demise, and he didn't care either way about any other lives.
 
acrophile said:
If the motivation had been political, someone would likely have issued a political statement. If the goal had been to kill as many people as possible, the pilot would likely have tried for a populated target.

I'd guess he just wanted a reliable, painless, instantaneous death, perhaps with total bodily obliteration, in physical comfort until the moment of demise, and he didn't care either way about any other lives.
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Seeing how he was the first human to hit the mountain,, you can bank on the "obliteration" part....:(
 
Art VanDelay said:
I would wager you've never done diving rocket fire or a prolonged gun run on a target. There exists a phenoma known as Target Fixation/Fascination whereby the closer you get to the target the stronger the urge to fly right into it becomes. He picked out those mountains and then an individual mountain and then a mountainside and bit by bit became that mountainside.
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Yes, I have not done either. Never heard of that. Interesting stuff. also scary..
 
I was on a Jet Blue flight to Aruba a few weeks ago. On the return flight I was near the front. I noticed that when a pilot came out of the cockpit, one of the stewards would go in. There were always two in the cockpit, which made sense to me with the new fortified doors. I would think it a good idea for all airlines to make sure there are at least two people in the cockpit at all times.
 
RotorDude said:
I am surprised a non-ATP pilot would be allowed to fly solo (even for a few minutes) an airliner with 150 passengers.
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That's actually the standard at Lufthansa. Their training is completely different from how things work in the US, where young guys need to gather 1000+ hours as CFIs or freight dogs, only to qualify for some crappy regional airline. Most of their pilots are hired directly from high school and most have no prior flight experience. Also, Lufthansa initially pays for the entire training at Lufthansa's own flight school, the pilots have to pay back only a relative small amount.

Other than mentioned on CNN, they have to go through a very tough, multiple day assessment center. No exceptions. My understanding is, that their evaluation of potential pilots is one of the strictest in the entire industry, because very few of the applicants pass. A guy on PPRUNE wrote up the contents of the test: http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250660-lufthansa-dlr-test.html#post1230384

Once somebody is hired, he is sent for 6 month or so to Goodyear, AZ to the Lufthansa flight school, which exclusively operates Bonanzas. In Goodyear, they do the basic training: From learning how to take off to the instrument rating. Next, back in German, they continue their training in a Citation (maybe some other jet, I don't remember) and simulators. Once they are done with this and have the type rating for the plane they will fly later on, they start to work as first officers - with a VERY good salary right from the start.

How do I know? One of my friends is a young pilot at Lufthansa.

Also, they seem to practice like crazy in their full motion flight simulators. I don't know how much training pilots at other airlines receive, at Lufthansa it however appears almost excessive.

Lufthansa Training Center: http://www.lufthansa-flight-training.com/en/home

My impression is, that few of them are aviators not to speak of stick-and-rudder guys. I however think that all of them are mentally strong, well trained professionals.
 
PaulS said:
I was on a Jet Blue flight to Aruba a few weeks ago. On the return flight I was near the front. I noticed that when a pilot came out of the cockpit, one of the stewards would go in. There were always two in the cockpit, which made sense to me with the new fortified doors. I would think it a good idea for all airlines to make sure there are at least two people in the cockpit at all times.
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That will likely be the only mandated change to come of this, a band aid at best that will tear off at any serious challenge.
 
PaulS said:
I was on a Jet Blue flight to Aruba a few weeks ago. On the return flight I was near the front. I noticed that when a pilot came out of the cockpit, one of the stewards would go in. There were always two in the cockpit, which made sense to me with the new fortified doors. I would think it a good idea for all airlines to make sure there are at least two people in the cockpit at all times.
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If an average sized healthy male pilot is hell-bent on suicide, and has a petite flight attendant in the cockpit as his sole obstacle, it wouldn't take much to disable her, given that he's about to murder 150 innocents.
But I think the "two in the cockpit at all times" is policy in the US, though apparently not in Europe. I can see the rationale for that in case of solo pilot sudden incapacitation.
 
German guy said:
My impression is, that few of them are aviators not to speak of stick-and-rudder guys. I however think that all of them are mentally strong, well trained professionals.
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If I understand you right, there's a certain amount of systems manipulators, rather than the seat-of-the-pants or stick-and-rudder wogs in Lufthansa. From what I've seen, this FO had his sailplane rating, which would certainly take him out of the technologist realm and strongly on the side of the stick-and-rudder guys.

I think what I mean, is he could have been me 35 years ago, willing to fly just about anything, with a good feel for how aircraft performed, not just how the buttons worked.
 
RotorDude said:
If an average sized healthy male pilot is hell-bent on suicide, and has a petite flight attendant in the cockpit as his sole obstacle, it wouldn't take much to disable her, given that he's about to murder 150 innocents.
But I think the "two in the cockpit at all times" is policy in the US, though apparently not in Europe. I can see the rationale for that in case of solo pilot sudden incapacitation.
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"A petite flight attendant" ???? Haven't seen one of those in a while !
 
docmirror said:
[...] From what I've seen, this FO had his sailplane rating, which would certainly take him out of the technologist realm and strongly on the side of the stick-and-rudder guys. [...]
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I saw that too. Apparently, he was also a well-liked member of the flying club and said on his Facebook site that he like aviation and music.

This doesn't make any sense... :no:
 
Who knows, mental instability might not be as obvious as one thinks. Perhaps he was coerced somehow(we have your loved one, crash the plane or they die)? Maybe someone broke up with him right before the flight. So very hard to say. I'm sure they'll be shining flashlights up the butthole of everyone who ever came into contact with him.
 
RotorDude said:
If an average sized healthy male pilot is hell-bent on suicide, and has a petite flight attendant in the cockpit as his sole obstacle, it wouldn't take much to disable her, given that he's about to murder 150 innocents.
But I think the "two in the cockpit at all times" is policy in the US, though apparently not in Europe. I can see the rationale for that in case of solo pilot sudden incapacitation.
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Perhaps the airlines should recruit gay bikers as flight attendants.:lol:
 
German guy said:
I saw that too. Apparently, he was also a well-liked member of the flying club and said on his Facebook site that he like aviation and music.

This doesn't make any sense... :no:
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A case for the shrinks to ponder?
 
German guy said:
That's actually the standard at Lufthansa. Their training is completely different from how things work in the US, where young guys need to gather 1000+ hours as CFIs or freight dogs, only to qualify for some crappy regional airline. Most of their pilots are hired directly from high school and most have no prior flight experience. Also, Lufthansa initially pays for the entire training at Lufthansa's own flight school, the pilots have to pay back only a relative small amount.

Other than mentioned on CNN, they have to go through a very tough, multiple day assessment center.
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Your description agrees very well with what I heard from a young Lufthansa FO, although I didn't know about the part where they repay some of the training cost.

The assessment really is tough. It includes such things as tricky eye-hand tests as well as social things such as a simulated crisis that must be solved by teamwork. As you mentioned, not many pass.

The FO that I know went directly from flight training into his position as FO on an Airbus 320.
 
German guy said:
I saw that too. Apparently, he was also a well-liked member of the flying club and said on his Facebook site that he like aviation and music.

This doesn't make any sense... :no:
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"The woods are lovely, dark and deep but I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep"

Think Manchurian Candidate......
 
You know, the other issue at hand is that with the current medical regulations, there could have been undiagnosed/untreated mental illness that could have aggravated him to go over the edge. I have always been a big proponent of allowing TREATED mental health issues to be allowable. So long as someone is fit to fly safely (whether you're mentally fit or physically fit) I have no problem riding with them.
 
ahkahn said:
You know, the other issue at hand is that with the current medical regulations, there could have been undiagnosed/untreated mental illness that could have aggravated him to go over the edge. I have always been a big proponent of allowing TREATED mental health issues to be allowable. So long as someone is fit to fly safely (whether you're mentally fit or physically fit) I have no problem riding with them.
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What worries me most about the mental issues (and I have read the FO has had depression in the past, at least), is that all it takes is being off the meds, or getting a wrong dose, or wrong prescription, to cause unexpected/unpredictable results. I can see perhaps a light weight GA pilot being allowed to fly that way, but for an airliner with dozens of souls on board, I'd expect a higher standard.
 
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I fully expect there to be a change to the cockpit door policy after this. I fully realize the procedure is in place to stop a passenger from getting into the cockpit. Obviously, the door works very well, if they were unable to break though it in 8 minutes. I know it would increase the risk of cockpit incursion somewhat, but I am surprised there was not a "secret" alternative way back in. Would it be unreasonable for the captain or FO have a key to the door? Or some other emergency unlatching procedure?
 
charheep said:
Another thoughts. Something HUGE would have to keep him focused for 8 whole minutes to commit suicide without chickening out. 30 seconds or so I could see. But to maintain that you are going to die and take all the lives with you for 8 solid minutes without changing your mind is a long time.
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Or without quickening your breathing just a little, with cumulogranite growing in your windshield.
 
PaulS said:
I was on a Jet Blue flight to Aruba a few weeks ago. On the return flight I was near the front. I noticed that when a pilot came out of the cockpit, one of the stewards would go in. There were always two in the cockpit, which made sense to me with the new fortified doors. I would think it a good idea for all airlines to make sure there are at least two people in the cockpit at all times.
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SOP for U.S. airlines. Never anyone alone in the cockpit. That's mostly for pilot incapacity reasons, not deliberate acts of craziness.
 
German guy said:
My impression is, that few of them are aviators not to speak of stick-and-rudder guys. I however think that all of them are mentally strong, well trained professionals.
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The several Lufthansa pilots I've met were all into gliding…
 
I am surprised a non-ATP pilot would be allowed to fly solo (even for a few minutes) an airliner with 150 passengers.
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Until, what, 2 years ago, here in the USA a 300 hour commercial pilot could be an FO on a 75 seat RJ. And the RJ Captain could use the john.
 
Henning said:
That is a sad statement, it implies that most people lack true compassion.
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This, from the guy who says he plans to take even more people with him if he ever commits suicide? :rolleyes:
 
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