SR-22 ditching 200nm from Hilo

[Kiddo's Driver]

I'm not sure I would EVER want to point a small GA aircraft at low altitude at any navel vessel. The CIWS doesn't know you're a nice guy.

Unless they have updated the software, it would not see most GA aircraft as a threat. They COULD put it in manual or use the sea sparrows...

I meant in a case like this where there were hours to find a suitable place to ditch.

But a quick search showed carrier landing lengths of 300' (seems short) or 1,000'. A Cirrus under the right conditions could possibly handle the latter.

USS (CVN-72) Abraham Lincoln is 1093 ft stem to stern, IIRC. The ship can do in excess of 30 knots, plus turn it into a headwind and you could land like a helicopter if your stall speed is low enough. Normal operations had us trying to keep 30 knots across the deck. I've seen in excess of 50 knots across the deck when we were bringing in an F-14 with split flaps.

Jim

 

[weilke]

Do they ever use cargo ships to get these planes across the oceans? Seems like it would be a safer alternative.

Depends on where they have to go. Anything 172 and up can be ferried to europe. If someone buys more than one plane at a time, it is often more economical to stick them in a container. Cirrus, Bonanzas, Barons to australia get ferried. To Japan there is a northern route via the aleutian islands and russia.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

If you miss, you're going off the end, and you're going to die. Your heirs will get a bill from the Navy for the propellers you ruining as your flivver got sucked under the ship.

I'd take my chances landing on the back side of a swell.

The 32 foot diameter bronze screws (not propellers) wouldn't have much trouble with an GA aircraft. They never seemed to have much trouble with logs off the west coast or whales going through the Australian bight.

There is much consternation over on the COPA board about escalating repack charges.

Done every 10 years, they started out at about $10k. Now, with the additional cost of mandatory switching to electronic activation, the price has escalated to over $15k and in some cases approaching $20k.

Unhappy campers, since Cirrus owners are, for now, held hostage to these prices.

In that case.... I WANT BRS. I WANT BRS. I WANT BRS. DID I MENTION I WANT BRS?

...small print - just keep the price down please.

Call BRS. They have a consulting engineer that can help with a 337 to install one on your non-Cirrus aircraft, for less than what Cirrus is charging.

Jim

 

[JasonM]

Courtesy of International Ferry Flights. All the seats, save the pilot's, are shipped seperately to make room for those tanks.

What would that cirrus weigh with all that?

 

[Geico266]

I have no interest in ocean crossings, so it won't ever be my problem, but I have to say, if the ocean is rough and pitching, I would likely tell them they can kill me or arrest me, it's their choice, but I'm landing on the deck anyhow.

You do know they can and will open fire on you. The carrier has defense rings that make unauthorized aircraft landings highly unlikely.

 

[Geico266]

Unless they have updated the software, it would not see most GA aircraft as a threat. They COULD put it in manual or use the sea sparrows...



USS (CVN-72) Abraham Lincoln is 1093 ft stem to stern, IIRC. The ship can do in excess of 30 knots, plus turn it into a headwind and you could land like a helicopter if your stall speed is low enough. Normal operations had us trying to keep 30 knots across the deck. I've seen in excess of 50 knots across the deck when we were bringing in an F-14 with split flaps.

Jim

One of my aviation goals is to do a T&G off the decommissioned USS Midway.

 

[flyingron]

L-17s (which are indistinguishable from Factory Navions other than the finishes applied) regularly operated of carriers in the Korean War. They were flying limos for the brass and occasionally were used for spotting duty. There were at least three ships: Badoeng Straight, Sicily, and Leyte that I have documented accounts or pictures of L-17s operating on.

The ground roll on a Navion (either TO or landing) is booked at 850' in a calm wind. Throw in the headway of an aircraft carrier, and it wouldn't even be hard. My wife landed our Navion in the width of the entrance taxiway (albeit the taxiways are pretty large) at IAD one time in a 30 knot headwind. Confused the hell out of ground control as they couldn't figure out how we exited the runway at that point.

 

[Geico266]

L-17s (which are indistinguishable from Factory Navions other than the finishes applied) regularly operated of carriers in the Korean War. They were flying limos for the brass and occasionally were used for spotting duty. There were at least three ships: Badoeng Straight, Sicily, and Leyte that I have documented accounts or pictures of L-17s operating on.

The ground roll on a Navion (either TO or landing) is booked at 850' in a calm wind. Throw in the headway of an aircraft carrier, and it wouldn't even be hard. My wife landed our Navion in the width of the entrance taxiway (albeit the taxiways are pretty large) at IAD one time in a 30 knot headwind. Confused the hell out of ground control as they couldn't figure out how we exited the runway at that point.

I don't think it would be hard to land on a carrier other than the down draft at the stern. Once you over came that it should be fine. Certainly depends on the plane, but any RV could do it. No barricade net needed. The biggest worry would be not getting shot down, and what food they were having for lunch in the brig. They still do bread & water for punishment.

 

[steingar]

BRS my six. Plenty of guys have had to put plenty of airplanes into the drink and lived to tell the tale without the involvement of BRS. I'll fly the damn thing into the crash thank you.

I'd probably feel differently if I flew a lot at night or over hostile terrain, but I don't.

 

[ClimbnSink]

BRS my six. Plenty of guys have had to put plenty of airplanes into the drink and lived to tell the tale without the involvement of BRS. I'll fly the damn thing into the crash thank you.

I'd probably feel differently if I flew a lot at night or over hostile terrain, but I don't.

+1. Some of the BRS desire is you get to give up and stop thinking right when thinking gets hard(and interesting.)

 

[FastEddieB]

What would that cirrus weigh with all that?

I happen to know the answer to that:

A LOT!!!

But if they're the kind of professionals they seem to be, they get a ferry permit which allows the gross weight increase.

Someone here probably knows the exact amount over gross that's allowed.

 

[guardrail]

Last night I was wondering if a civilian aircraft had ever made an emergency landing on an aircraft carrier.

Anyone?

A defecting Vietnamese Air Force Major and his family landed a bird dog on a US carrier...having no experience before. (EDIT: He was a pilot in ther Vietnamese Air Force so perhaps he did have experience with carriers, but probably not in a bird dog!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Chambers

 

[guardrail]

Navy pilots are considered the best die to the skill required to land in a carrier. To think we as GA pilots can land in one even under the best sea conditions (btw out in the open ocean the seas and winds are almost never calm) and even having the carrier stopped is wishful thinking at best. Better hone those water landing skills, get a plane with BRS, or avoid the open sea.

You're forgetting the up-and-down part, which GA pilots have zero experience with (even in earthquake country). Also, the deck is angled, and the *runway is moving away from you*. This is a sight picture that I don't see ending well for any carrier-landing novice, under severe stress, in a GA plane.

It's not easy but definitely possible and has been done with far less techonology than the Cirrus has, see my previous post.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I would do the same.

Me too. Same as the naval cadet who does it for the first time in a much more complex airplane. If the ga pilot has over 1000 hours it should be quite easy.as for the cirrus pilot, maybe the selector didn't work or maybe he ran out of gas due to poor planning. In any case he gave the right answer!

 

[Pilawt]

A defecting Vietnamese Air Force Major and his family landed a bird dog on a US carrier...having no experience before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Chambers

Video of the Cessna O-1 Bird Dog -- with a family of seven Vietnamese refugees aboard -- landing on the deck of the Midway at sea, April 1975.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...essna-aircraft

When the captain was told there were seven refugees aboard the lightplane circling the ship, he had the arresting cables removed and shoved $10 million worth of helicopters over the side to make room.

 

[Pilawt]

A fellow based at our field is in the transoceanic ferry business. His website explains the pros and cons of ferrying vs. shipping a Cirrus:

http://www.internationalferryflights.com/Cirrus_Shipping/

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Video of the Cessna O-1 Bird Dog -- with a family of seven Vietnamese refugees aboard -- landing on the deck of the Midway at sea, April 1975.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...essna-aircraft

When the captain was told there were seven refugees aboard the lightplane circling the ship, he had the arresting cables removed and shoved $10 million worth of helicopters over the side to make room.

Please substantiate this. All articles I read said that many helicopters were landing and were creating a dangerous situation with their rotors so close together, so many were pushed overboard. Or.... They were damaged in landing by inexperienced Vietnamise Pilots. No mention of light plane danger in anything I read at the time.

 

[guardrail]

Please substantiate this. All articles I read said that many helicopters were landing and were creating a dangerous situation with their rotors so close together, so many were pushed overboard. Or.... They were damaged in landing by inexperienced Vietnamise Pilots. No mention of light plane danger in anything I read at the time.

That happened too, but that was a different part of the evacuation mission. The captain ordered the deck to be cleared in this case, that meant pushing a helo off the deck. Look at the article, there's pictures from the event.

During the evacuations they were scuttling equipment over the side as quickly as it was landing. A lot was ours, and some was theirs.

 

[Pilawt]

Please substantiate this. All articles I read said that many helicopters were landing and were creating a dangerous situation with their rotors so close together, so many were pushed overboard. Or.... They were damaged in landing by inexperienced Vietnamise Pilots. No mention of light plane danger in anything I read at the time.

"Fog of war," and all that. Pick your source:

http://vnafmamn.com/flight_freedom.html

Midway's Commanding Officer, Captain L.C. Chambers, assesed the situation and ordered the flight deck cleared. Crewmen worked ferverishly to clear the landing area of Vietnamese UH-1 "Huey" helicopters. It was nessesary to dump one "Huey" over the side to provide adequate room for the neophyte carrier pilot.
​

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/2246-one-of-the-more-interesting-carrier-landings/

Once the task was finished and the deck clear, the Cessna lined up with the carrier. The ceiling was 500 feet, visibility reduced to 5 miles, and it began to rain. To make matters worse, the wind picked up to 15 knots and 5 additional helicopters landed on the Midway. Captain Chambers ordered those helicopters immediately pushed overboard and the ship to speed into the wind at 25 knots.

[photo caption] (The crew pushing a huey overboard in preparation for the landing, an estimated 10 million dollars of equipment was pushed overboard that day)


​

And there are several more. Google it.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

An L-19 landing with 40 knots wind going over the deck...how slow can they go? It probably landed at a slow jog!

 

[JasonM]

I happen to know the answer to that:

A LOT!!!

But if they're the kind of professionals they seem to be, they get a ferry permit which allows the gross weight increase.

Someone here probably knows the exact amount over gross that's allowed.

I was just curious of the weight, to see if it was over what the airplane parachute was tested. Also wondered if it touched down harder than if it had been a normal configuration at gross weight. Just thinking..

 

[Clark1961]

I was just curious of the weight, to see if it was over what the airplane parachute was tested. Also wondered if it touched down harder than if it had been a normal configuration at gross weight. Just thinking..

Just thinking that most of the gas had been expended...

 

[JasonM]

Just thinking that most of the gas had been expended...

I thought the preliminary word was it was a failure in the fuel transfer system from the ferry tanks.

 

[Clark1961]

I thought the preliminary word was it was a failure in the fuel transfer system from the ferry tanks.

The aircraft was less than two hours from Hawaii - most of the gas was gone

 

[dell30rb]

BRS my six. Plenty of guys have had to put plenty of airplanes into the drink and lived to tell the tale without the involvement of BRS. I'll fly the damn thing into the crash thank you.

I'd probably feel differently if I flew a lot at night or over hostile terrain, but I don't.

I wouldn't want to ditch in that stuff.

Weather conditions at the time of the rescue were seas of nine to 12 feet and winds of 25 to 28 miles per hour.

 

[nddons]

I'd think that landing a light civil on a carrier wouldn't be that incredibly difficult. There are a couple things that one would need to be aware of though. One, since the angled deck is moving away, you need to continuously chase lineup if the ship is making its own wind. Continual right wing down corrections. Normally there isn't a significant crosswind, so that shouldn't be an issue. Your closure would be nearly nothing, so you'd have that going for you. The biggest problem would be the power available. If the ship is making its own wind, there is a pretty decent "burble" about 1/4 mile behind the ship.....akin to a very tame microburst. You will initially get a bit of a "liftie", at which point the natural reaction is to take off a bunch of power.....and then you get hit with the downdraft. Plenty of times in a jet with 36k lbs of afterburning thrust I have underestimated (or I guess overcorrected) this fact of life and have glumly slammed into the ace in full blower. So I small prop plane, you'd just have to understand it was there potentially given the ship's movement. Then again, your closure is not great so probably time enough to correct. Big thing there is the danger would be the round-down/fantail just like it is for any other aircraft.......I doubt you would ever be slow enough if you landed long to just dribble off and fall into the water.....it takes a cessna about 4 feet to do a roll and go. If you landed long and didn't realize it, you could just turn towards the bow (assuming the deck was cleared for such unheard of theatrics) and get an extra football field to stop in. The deck movement is normally not excessive.....I've seen it real bad, but unless you are like in the open ocean in the atlantic, it normally isn't crazy (maybe pacific fleet guys saw it more). That said, a pitching deck could probably collapse your gear. Oh yeah, and have them strip the wires......you might flip upside down if your gear caught one, particularly guys with little wheels and wheelie pants a la cessna. Anyway, just some real baseless "what-if's" to ponder

Oh yea? Well what the hell would you know about it? . Just kidding. Thanks for the cool analysis!

 

[Matthew]

If a C130 can do it...

 

[Lindberg]

Maybe.

I'd say it's a certainty, with the possible exception of George Washington.

And, being a skeptic, I would not completely rule out that possibility.

Nobody except the pilot knows, or ever will know precisely what happened in this case. The folks jumping to crucify him are just as wrong as those jumping to hail him as a hero. What we know, is that there's a Cirrus at the bottom of the ocean and thankfully, the pilot is alive and well. But anyone here stating--as a fact--that it was a mechanical problem, is as likely to be correct as those stating that it was poor planning.

 

[SR22kads]

On the same day as the Cirrus a second plane, a Cessna with 4 aboard, also ditched off the coast of Hawaii due to running out of fuel. All four aboard apparently survived:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/2...-hawaii-all-aboard-survive/?intcmp=latestnews

http://www.kitv.com/news/cessna-forced-to-ditch-off-pokai-bay-pilot-and-passengers-safe/30918308

 

[Pilawt]

If a C130 can do it...

Or a U-2 ...

 

[Hawker800]

That's pretty cool.

 

[RotorDude]

Video of the Cessna O-1 Bird Dog -- with a family of seven Vietnamese refugees aboard -- landing on the deck of the Midway at sea, April 1975.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...essna-aircraft

When the captain was told there were seven refugees aboard the lightplane circling the ship, he had the arresting cables removed and shoved $10 million worth of helicopters over the side to make room.

Landing sequence of same event on YT.
I'm amazed how he managed to stuff his 6 family members in there.

 

[35 AoA]

actually the more I think about it, the difficult part that would require skill would just be timing your flare. This is assuming most civilian singles which don't fly AoA all the way to touchdown or at all in many instances.....unlike every carrier based aircraft. So you would be flaring behind the fantail or potentially just as you cross it (I have no idea where it would be but that would be my guess) to actually touch down in a desirable part of the LA from where you could stop un-arrested. Mess up that judgement call and you are dead smeared all over the fantail. Float a little bit, and now you have a pretty scary go around. I don't think the stick and rudder skills would be the big challenge, just trying to land a plane that isn't optimized for landing in a very precise spot. Obviously there would be no meatball to scan, as the setting for the lens is different for every aircraft (to actually read accurately) and there of course wouldn't be a setting for anything other than an F/A-18A-D, E/F, G, F-14, EA-6B, E-2, C-2, S-3 at this point in history. So you would have nothing to go off of to judge glideslope, and you would have to correctly guess when to flare above a moving runway. Of course you could probably just fly a flatter approach, but then you are really running into backside of the power curve problems, especially in a single without really any thrust available in that regime. Random rantings, in really no particular relation to the original topic

 

[Clark1961]

actually the more I think about it, the difficult part that would require skill would just be timing your flare. This is assuming most civilian singles which don't fly AoA all the way to touchdown or at all in many instances.....unlike every carrier based aircraft. So you would be flaring behind the fantail or potentially just as you cross it (I have no idea where it would be but that would be my guess) to actually touch down in a desirable part of the LA from where you could stop un-arrested. Mess up that judgement call and you are dead smeared all over the fantail. Float a little bit, and now you have a pretty scary go around. I don't think the stick and rudder skills would be the big challenge, just trying to land a plane that isn't optimized for landing in a very precise spot. Obviously there would be no meatball to scan, as the setting for the lens is different for every aircraft (to actually read accurately) and there of course wouldn't be a setting for anything other than an F/A-18A-D, E/F, G, F-14, EA-6B, E-2, C-2, S-3 at this point in history. So you would have nothing to go off of to judge glideslope, and you would have to correctly guess when to flare above a moving runway. Of course you could probably just fly a flatter approach, but then you are really running into backside of the power curve problems, especially in a single without really any thrust available in that regime. Random rantings, in really no particular relation to the original topic

I'll be happy to give it a shot and report back if you can arrange it...

 

[RyanB]

Very interesting to watch, he looks so chilled and relaxed sitting in that raft waiting to be rescued.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Looks easy
http://youtu.be/pUdzVnZBaoY?t=3m35s

Edit better clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcQLa_25PkU&feature=youtu.be

 

[comanchepilot]

you're just gonna put it down - flare? Its the USN dammit- you're gonna cut the throttle and just put it down bang - like the 737 pilot yesterday.

actually the more I think about it, the difficult part that would require skill would just be timing your flare. This is assuming most civilian singles which don't fly AoA all the way to touchdown or at all in many instances.....unlike every carrier based aircraft. So you would be flaring behind the fantail or potentially just as you cross it (I have no idea where it would be but that would be my guess) to actually touch down in a desirable part of the LA from where you could stop un-arrested. Mess up that judgement call and you are dead smeared all over the fantail. Float a little bit, and now you have a pretty scary go around. I don't think the stick and rudder skills would be the big challenge, just trying to land a plane that isn't optimized for landing in a very precise spot. Obviously there would be no meatball to scan, as the setting for the lens is different for every aircraft (to actually read accurately) and there of course wouldn't be a setting for anything other than an F/A-18A-D, E/F, G, F-14, EA-6B, E-2, C-2, S-3 at this point in history. So you would have nothing to go off of to judge glideslope, and you would have to correctly guess when to flare above a moving runway. Of course you could probably just fly a flatter approach, but then you are really running into backside of the power curve problems, especially in a single without really any thrust available in that regime. Random rantings, in really no particular relation to the original topic

 

[Jeff Oslick]

you're just gonna put it down - flare? Its the USN dammit- you're gonna cut the throttle and just put it down bang - like the 737 pilot yesterday.

I see you've been flying Southwest again, eh?

 

[FastEddieB]

you're just gonna put it down - flare? Its the USN dammit- you're gonna cut the throttle and just put it down bang - like the 737 pilot yesterday.

Don't carrier pilots say, "Flare to land...squat to pee?"

 

[bflynn]

One of my aviation goals is to do a T&G off the decommissioned USS Midway.

Yours and a lot of other people's. They know. They've strung cables across the flight deck.

A few years back I worked with the crew doing restorations on the ex-USS Tosrk in Inner Harbor, Baltimore. In order to find parts, we made several trips to reserve fleet yards to find vintage items for repair and display. The guys that work at the reserve said about once or twice a year they could see someone thinking of lining up for a landing, the think better of it. I guess they're still waiting to pull an airplane or pilot out of the water.