Another "Does This Require a Commercial Pilot?" Thread

JoseCuervo

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JoseCuervo
Let's pretend like I have a field of turnips, and there is a high end-restaurant 150 miles away that makes the world's greatest Turnip Soup with the first turnips of the season.

But, the turnips need to be in the soup within 2 hours of being picked to be worthy of this recipe, and to justify the long lines of turnip soup connoisseurs. And it is only good with the first turnips of the season. After that, the opportunity is lost.

Can I contract with them to sell them the 25#s of turnips, and fly them in my personal plane to deliver them for the $3 per pound I charge for turnips? And let the chef know when I am 30 minutes out so he can start boiling the broth.

Can I charge them a thermos full of soup for my delivery fee?

Is all this flying just "incidental" to my turnip growing enterprises?
 
You are doing something which you can easily do in a car, but you just happen to have an airplane. I say yes. You are making money off the turnips, not the transportation of the turnips(I wouldn't tell the FAA about the thermos of soup). The transportation of the turnips merely supports the business venture of selling the turnips. It is incidental to employment because you are not being paid to fly the turnips, you are being paid to sell the turnips.

The FAA usually looks at this on a case by case basis. You MIGHT (and I emphasize might) be able to charge a little extra due to using the plane over a slower means of transportation, but I'm not sure.
 
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by 'turnips' you mean 'pot', and by 'turnip soup' you mean 'pot brownies', right? I can see right thru this one.......
 
by 'turnips' you mean 'pot', and by 'turnip soup' you mean 'pot brownies', right? I can see right thru this one.......

false-turnip-pulling-and-shield-holding-use-the-same-muscles.jpg






(On a side note, this society is going to have all sorts of twisted logic and reasoning as pot becomes legalized in more and more states, while still outlawed by the Feds and other states, AND while employers and other entities still consider it to be "bad" and drug test for it. No idea how it all plays out, but I think there will be all sorts of test cases for the grey areas in the next few years. Younger generations will likely never know it to have been illegal, much like prohibition for us.)
 
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You are doing something which you can easily do in a car, but you just happen to have an airplane. I say yes. You are making money off the turnips, not the transportation of the turnips(I wouldn't tell the FAA about the thermos of soup). The transportation of the turnips merely supports the business venture of selling the turnips. It is incidental to employment because you are not being paid to fly the turnips, you are being paid to sell the turnips.

The FAA usually looks at this on a case by case basis. You MIGHT (and I emphasize might) be able to charge a little extra due to using the plane over a slower means of transportation, but I'm not sure.


Well, this is one of those "1 hour flights or 3 hour drives", so the air transportation would definitely add value as 1 hour turnips are far superior than 3 hour turnips.

And, a thermos of turnip soup is very valuable payment...
 
Didn't you ride in the back of the truck at one time?
 
You need a CP ticket to carry the turnips being sold since you're being compensated (in one way or another) for being PIC of an aircraft carrying cargo (see Mangiamele, among others). However, as long as it's your turnip farm and airplane, and you're only selling the turnips to the end-user at the destination, it's not a 135 operation requiring a commercial operating certificate -- essentially, you're just a corporate pilot, but you're still being compensated so you need a CP ticket.
 
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You are doing something which you can easily do in a car, but you just happen to have an airplane. I say yes. You are making money off the turnips, not the transportation of the turnips(I wouldn't tell the FAA about the thermos of soup). The transportation of the turnips merely supports the business venture of selling the turnips. It is incidental to employment because you are not being paid to fly the turnips, you are being paid to sell the turnips.
He's still receiving compensation (in the form of free flying time if nothing else), and in that case, you can't be carrying passengers or cargo without a CP ticket. See the Mangiamele letter.
 
He's still receiving compensation (in the form of free flying time if nothing else), and in that case, you can't be carrying passengers or cargo without a CP ticket. See the Mangiamele letter.

Does the whole "free flying time" consider that the person benefitting has about a bazillion other things, far more valuable to do other than deliver a box of turnips? And, since it is my plane, my fuel, my checkbook, my time, where does the "free" start coming into play?

I can see the "free" for someone trying to build hours, but how is "flying" a benefit to someone who should be out harvesting turnips...
 
If the turnips are indeed the kind that people smoke and he is caught, I think that whether or not he is required to be a commercial pilot would be the least of his worries.
 
Class B is like the 'drug free school zone' of the sky.
 
Depends on whether or not the controllers like turnips, or whatever it is.
In other words, it comes down to whether you're taking an ATC preferred root.
 
You need a CP ticket to carry the turnips being sold since you're being compensated (in one way or another) for being PIC of an aircraft carrying cargo (see Mangiamele, among others). However, as long as it's your turnip farm and airplane, and you're only selling the turnips to the end-user at the destination, it's not a 135 operation requiring a commercial operating certificate -- essentially, you're just a corporate pilot, but you're still being compensated so you need a CP ticket.


If that's true, then logically there is no business use that would be "incidental." As long as he pays for the cost of use of the plane, and he is transporting his own turnips and not theirs, I would argue this is ok. It's no different than if I fly myself to a deposition, and charge for my hourly rate while in the deposition. I realize that logic doesn't always control how these issues are resolved, and the FAA can take a contrary position, which is why I only state my answer as, "I would argue."
 
If that's true, then logically there is no business use that would be "incidental." As long as he pays for the cost of use of the plane, and he is transporting his own turnips and not theirs, I would argue this is ok. It's no different than if I fly myself to a deposition, and charge for my hourly rate while in the deposition. I realize that logic doesn't always control how these issues are resolved, and the FAA can take a contrary position, which is why I only state my answer as, "I would argue."

I just read Mangiamele and I can't see how it applies.

I am not seeking reimbursement.

The flight is incidental to the planting, irrigating, harvesting of turnips.

There is no compensation (other than the thermos of world's most delicious turnip soup).
 
Does the whole "free flying time" consider that the person benefitting has about a bazillion other things, far more valuable to do other than deliver a box of turnips? And, since it is my plane, my fuel, my checkbook, my time, where does the "free" start coming into play?
The fact that your business is paying for the flight is the issue. Even if you pay for the flight out of pocket, your business is still benefitting, and that means you're benefitting. It just ain't legal without a CP/ATP.

I can see the "free" for someone trying to build hours, but how is "flying" a benefit to someone who should be out harvesting turnips...
The FAA has said they don't care about whether or not you are building hours for higher certificates/ratings. If nothing else, you could be gaining landings/approaches towards 61.57 currency, and thus getting something of value. Bottom line is if it's business, you either have a CP/ATP or you don't carry cargo.
 
If that's true, then logically there is no business use that would be "incidental." As long as he pays for the cost of use of the plane, and he is transporting his own turnips and not theirs, I would argue this is ok.
You could argue that, but if he sells them at the other end, you'd lose that argument.

It's no different than if I fly myself to a deposition, and charge for my hourly rate while in the deposition.
Actually, it's quite different, because he's carrying cargo to be sold, but you're not carrying anyone or anything other than yourself. See Mangiamele on that point.
 
I just read Mangiamele and I can't see how it applies.

I am not seeking reimbursement.

The flight is incidental to the planting, irrigating, harvesting of turnips.

There is no compensation (other than the thermos of world's most delicious turnip soup).
Perhaps you can't see it, but I'm quite sure the FAA Chief Counsel could and would. Y'all want to press-to-test on this, be my guess, but if you get caught and cooked, don't say I didn't warn you.

And no, that flight is not "incidental to the planting, irrigating, harvesting of turnips". It's part and parcel of the business of delivering turnips to paying customers, which is quite another thing.
 
Hauling turnips doesn't fall under the "incidental" exception because the aircraft is carrying property.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.
 
You could argue that, but if he sells them at the other end, you'd lose that argument.

Actually, it's quite different, because he's carrying cargo to be sold, but you're not carrying anyone or anything other than yourself. See Mangiamele on that point.


Is it different if I fly the other direction next month and buy some turnip seed to plant?

I am not selling anything, and certainly not carrying any cargo that would be sold.
 
Hauling turnips doesn't fall under the "incidental" exception because the aircraft is carrying property.

I think I see where you are going with this.


If I fly to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I can fly myself, correct?

If, on the way to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I drop some turnips off at the world's best turnip soup establishment, now are we "incidental" to my trip to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting?
 
Perhaps you can't see it, but I'm quite sure the FAA Chief Counsel could and would. Y'all want to press-to-test on this, be my guess, but if you get caught and cooked, don't say I didn't warn you.

And no, that flight is not "incidental to the planting, irrigating, harvesting of turnips". It's part and parcel of the business of delivering turnips to paying customers, which is quite another thing.


Can I fly across the state to get a part for my Turnip Harvester that is broke down in the field? Would that be "incidental"?
 
I think I see where you are going with this.


If I fly to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I can fly myself, correct?

If, on the way to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I drop some turnips off at the world's best turnip soup establishment, now are we "incidental" to my trip to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting?

Flying yourself to the TGA meeting is incidental to turnip farming. Carrying turnips, while possibly incidental, is carrying "property", and therefore does not meet the exception.
 
If I fly to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I can fly myself, correct?
Yes.

If, on the way to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting, I drop some turnips off at the world's best turnip soup establishment, now are we "incidental" to my trip to the Turnip Grower's Association Meeting?
No. You're now carrying cargo for compensation/hire.

I think part of the problem is that you don't understand what the FAA means by "incidental" to the job. Transporting products (turnips) or supplies needed to make the products (seeds) is not "incidental" to the business, it is a "foreseeable and normal part of the business". OTOH, using a plane to get to that meeting would be "incidental" to your business. For more on that fundamental concept, see if you can find a copy of the FAA letter to David Ahlstrand, Sept. 6, 1990. It's not on the Chief Counsel web site, but you should be able to get a copy on request to AGC-200.
 
Can I fly across the state to get a part for my Turnip Harvester that is broke down in the field? Would that be "incidental"?
No. You'd be carrying cargo, and that's verboten per Mangiamele.

The FAA really, really, really doesn't want Private Pilots flying where any money or anything else which could be viewed as compensation or business is involved. They've carved out a few exceptions where nobody else can get hurt and nobody else's property is aboard, but that's about it, and they are most unlikely to ease their position on this.
 
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I like turnips. Where is this place?


MMMMMM.. me too.... Turnip and Collard Greens with some fat back and let to simmer in a cast iron pot over night is almost better then sex.....

Just add corn bread and little bit of vinegar and the pot liquor is the nector of the gods...:yes:...:):):)
 
No. You'd be carrying cargo, and that's verboten per Mangiamele.

The FAA really, really, really doesn't want Private Pilots flying where any money or anything else which could be viewed as compensation or business is involved. They've carved out a few exceptions where nobody else can get hurt and nobody else's property is aboard, but that's about it, and they are most unlikely to ease their position on this.

I appreciate the information.

It kind of closes out any room for the "few exceptions", as once you add "property", you close the door. My phone is paid for by my sole proprietorship Turnip farm, if I carry the iTurnip 6s Phone on the flight, I am "carrying property" that is just as valuable to the farm as the broken part from across the state.

It would make it tough to attend the Turnip Growers Association meeting if I can't haul "property" with me.

Lots of flights would be prohibited, ranchers couldn't go look for lost cattle, etc...
 
Yes.

No. You're now carrying cargo for compensation/hire.

I think part of the problem is that you don't understand what the FAA means by "incidental" to the job. Transporting products (turnips) or supplies needed to make the products (seeds) is not "incidental" to the business, it is a "foreseeable and normal part of the business". OTOH, using a plane to get to that meeting would be "incidental" to your business. For more on that fundamental concept, see if you can find a copy of the FAA letter to David Ahlstrand, Sept. 6, 1990. It's not on the Chief Counsel web site, but you should be able to get a copy on request to AGC-200.

Found the Ahlstrand letter, doesn't seem to be at all similar or pertinent.

"September 6, 1990
In Reply Refer To: ACE-7

Mr. David D. Ahlstrand

Dear Mr. Ahlstrand:
Your letter of December 4, 1989, has been referred to this office for
response. You ask whether you must have a commercial pilot certificate for
piloting an aircraft, on behalf of your employer, the Nebraska Public Power
District, or whether a private pilot certificate is sufficient under Federal
Aviation Regulation (FAR) 61.118(a). Based upon the facts you have
presented, it is our opinion that a commercial pilot certificate is
required.

You state that you are a heavy equipment operator on the Lincoln Overhead
Maintenance Crew, which maintains about 800 miles of high voltage
transmission lines in eastern Nebraska. The lines are patrolled on foot once
a year, and also by Aerial Patrol, Inc., five times per year. Additionally,
you state that NPPD employees patrol lines by air when there are unscheduled power outages. You state that if the flights now made by Aerial Patrol, Inc., were conducted by NPPD employees, significant savings to the company and rate payers could result. You ask whether you could perform these flight duties with a private pilot certificate. You state that the flights would include power line patrol, and could involve the carrying of other company employees. You indicate you would be acting in your capacity as an NPPD employee, and the company would pay all expenses. You did not state, but it is assumed, that the company agrees such flights would be under their
general operational control, as opposed to yours as an independent
contractor offering your services to the company. It is also assumed that
you are properly rated to fly the aircraft.
FAR 61.118 generally prohibits a private pilot certificate holder from
flying for compensation or hire. There are certain exceptions, one of which
allows operations for compensation or hire if it is connected with any
business or employment, and if it is only incidental to that business or
employment and the flight or flights do not carry passengers for
compensation or hire.


{p1}

You would be compensated for your operations by performing them in
partial receipt of your salary. Also, your building of flight hours paid by
the company would constitute additional compensation. Therefore, the flights
would be for compensation or hire. Aerial power line patrol operations are a
foreseeable and normal part of the NPPD business, even if relatively
infrequent. Therefore, they are not an incidental, or casual and
unimportant, part of the business. Since your power line patrol operations
would replace those present operations of Aerial Patrol, Inc., the company
would expect you, ********ly or implicitly, to have a pilot certificate to
now do the company's work. Your power line patrol operations would be in
violation of FAR 61.118, and you must have a commercial pilot certificate to
perform them. Moreover, even if the flights were only incidental to your
employment, your flights for compensation would still not fall within the
stated exception if you carried passengers. Further, in order to receive a
power line patrol waiver for flying at low altitudes in certain locations
under specified conditions, a commercial certificate would be required.
It is unclear what other operations your letter contemplates. You
indicate that you would conduct certain other company business flights, paid
for and while employed by the company, and while carrying passengers. This
opinion does not specifically address other than aerial patrol operations.
However, you should be aware that, unless your operations clearly fall
within the specific exceptions to FAR 61.118, such as "sharing the expenses"
or the few others, you must have a commercial pilot certificate. Further, if
you conducted flights for the company, such as carrying company employees,
and the company did not assume operational control of these operations, you
would likely be deemed an independent contractor requiring not only a
commercial certificate, but also a Part 135 operating certificate.

Sincerely,

Timothy C. Titus
Assistant Chief Counse


That letter is for an employee flying as a job duty.
 
I appreciate the information.

It kind of closes out any room for the "few exceptions", as once you add "property", you close the door.
Exactly.

My phone is paid for by my sole proprietorship Turnip farm, if I carry the iTurnip 6s Phone on the flight, I am "carrying property" that is just as valuable to the farm as the broken part from across the state.
No, that is not the same. But if that thought encourages you to upgrade to CP, so be it.

It would make it tough to attend the Turnip Growers Association meeting if I can't haul "property" with me.
That's not the FAA's problem.

Lots of flights would be prohibited, ranchers couldn't go look for lost cattle, etc...
How do you figure that?
 
Serious question...

Why not just bite the bullet and go for the Commercial license?


We only harvest fresh turnips for turnip soup in a 2 hour window, once a year.


(might be a good idea, but then I am guessing there is some unseen "next shoe".)
 
just so ya know.....most FAA FSDO guys have never fallen off of a turnip truck. :no:
 
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