What is a strong crosswind?

[BillTIZ]

Only a few airplanes are designed to land with a crab. Most require wing low with the longitudinal axis aligned with the centerline.

Some have the capability to dial in "crosswind crab". I've seen copilots looking out the pilots side window to see centerline with max crab dialed in. Nose pointed to the right with wings level. (B-52)

Land a conventional geared aircraft in a crab and you're looking at a ground loop. Most likely a gear will fail and a wingtip will scrape the runway and might even bend the wing.

 

[BillTIZ]

Runways at VGT (North Las Vegas, NV) are 12L/R or 25.
Winds are variable between 170 to 200 at 20G30.

Pick your runway. Are you more comfortable with a left or right crosswind?

If winds are 30G40, I may ask for Taxiway H, if my first two attempts on a numbered runway did not work. I've never needed Taxi H, but I know those who have. Tower will say " land at your own risk", no problem, no reports. Run off the side, expect the usual reporting and investigation.

Your next option is Henderson airport (HND) runway there is 17, but the winds may be different, I'd ask tower to check first before heading there.

 

[FastEddieB]

What is Oklahoma? ...

Sorry - I thought this was a Jeopardy question ..

Henrietta, Oklahoma in my Sky Arrow.

Hellacious wind, with tumbleweed thrown in as an extra distractor!

 

[CTLSi]

Only a few airplanes are designed to land with a crab. Most require wing low with the longitudinal axis aligned with the centerline.

Some have the capability to dial in "crosswind crab". I've seen copilots looking out the pilots side window to see centerline with max crab dialed in. Nose pointed to the right with wings level. (B-52)

Land a conventional geared aircraft in a crab and you're looking at a ground loop. Most likely a gear will fail and a wingtip will scrape the runway and might even bend the wing.

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

 

[jsstevens]

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

Really? In the air? How does the plane know there's a crosswind? Is it looking at the runway?

 

[AggieMike88]

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

Wrong terminology and concept.... again....

"...pushed by the xwind" is weather vaning.

On take off, you allow the wind to weather vane you into a crab, allowing you to maintain the centerline as you take off.

Aircraft such as the B-52 have steerable main wheels that permit it to operate in a crabbed configuration

 

[RoscoeT]

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

Troll troll troll your boat gently down the stream....

 

[MAKG1]

I think every poster has missed the point here.

A strong crosswind is one the PIC is uncomfortable with. Period.

Personal minimums are not subject to review by the Internet peanut gallery. They are not determined by the POH (except that they shouldn't exceed limitations). They aren't even determined by a flight instructor except for student pilots.

No PIC should ever feel pressured to raise personal minimums because SGOTI says so. Or even because an instructor or owner says so. The PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. Full stop.

 

[JasonM]

I think every poster has missed the point here.

A strong crosswind is one the PIC is uncomfortable with. Period.

I agree. Any number that makes you feel uncomfortable is a strong cross wind.

I have had times where I felt good in a direct 90 deg 20kt+ crosswinds and I have had times after that where 8kt's had me nervous. I think it really has to do with how often your are flying in windy conditions.

 

[bobmrg]

Why would landing on that taxiway right into the wind be considered "careless and reckless"? It gives you twice the length as the option you described on the runway plus either option begins on the runway and ends on a taxiway
Assuming those parallel stripes on the runway are the thousand yard markers, the taxiway would give you approximately 500' of straight pavement, the arrow you've drawn at an angle across the runway is approximately 250'..... plus if you were unable to stop within the 500' on the taxiway a 30* turn would keep you on the pavement, OTOH if you were unable to stop within the 250' on the runway it'd take a turn of 45* to 60* to keep it on the pavement.

Not careless and reckless. A tower controller will let you land any which way you want, but will include "at your own risk" in the landing clearance.

Bob Gardner

 

[Eagle I]

I think every poster has missed the point here.

A strong crosswind is one the PIC is uncomfortable with. Period.

Personal minimums are not subject to review by the Internet peanut gallery. They are not determined by the POH (except that they shouldn't exceed limitations). They aren't even determined by a flight instructor except for student pilots.

No PIC should ever feel pressured to raise personal minimums because SGOTI says so. Or even because an instructor or owner says so. The PIC is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. Full stop.

Thank you! I was starting to feel bad for the OP, because of all the sarcastic responses here. I wonder how many people with perfectly good questions are discouraged from asking them.

 

[CharlieTango]

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

It's that relative wind thing again. A crab is a result of a heading correction to make your bearing and ground track match. Your plane flies in the relative wind which is on its nose. When you are crabbing along there is no xwind pushing on your tail.

 

[alfadog]

A crab is the result of the tail being pushed by the xwind. What aircraft has a tail that is not designed to react to wind in such a way? Just curious...

A crab is not a result of anything outside the airplane, the airplane is flying perfectly normally and straight. It is simply the term used when you are flying normally through an airmass that is moving at an angle to your desired ground track and your course through the air is such that the vector resultant of your forward velocity relative to the airmass and the movement of the airmass over the ground lies along your desired ground track.

 

[petrolero]

150 knots, tips touching and wheels screeching across the pavement.

Now I will scroll up through the thread and see what people actually posted.

 

[petrolero]

Thank you! I was starting to feel bad for the OP, because of all the sarcastic responses here. I wonder how many people with perfectly good questions are discouraged from asking them.

150 knots, tips touching and wheels screeching across the pavement.

Now I will scroll up through the thread and see what people actually posted.

Just as I expected. This board has some good information if you can find it among the silliness and outright crapola.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Not careless and reckless. A tower controller will let you land any which way you want, but will include "at your own risk" in the landing clearance.

Bob Gardner

Reading your quote of my post Bob I note I in error referred to the thousand foot markers as the "thousand yard markers" I must go back and correct that

 

[cmathis]

The appropriate answer here is to consult your metal landing calculator!! You folks are slipping!

 

[Kaniki]

"...pushed by the xwind" is weather vaning.

On take off, you allow the wind to weather vane you into a crab, allowing you to maintain the centerline as you take off.

--

Had my very first experience of this just today! I'm taking off on 34 into a 10 mph xwind, and about two seconds after rotation, I'm suddenly looking a whole lot more east than I'd bargained for. The wind was coming in from 070, and the 172 just spun around right into it. It took a couple seconds to catch up with what was happening, but you're right: relaxing into it a bit enabled me to stay over the runway for the duration.

It was a big bad windy afternoon everywhere west of the Cascades today, so of course we went out to work on maneuvers. I hate practicing stalls, and doing it in a stiff wind made it that much more challenging. But if you don't make it hard, you don't learn, right?

 

[Henning]

I had what I later calculated a 13kt crosswind landing (gusts were the problem...they were up to 28kts) in Galveston last year. I realized then that was about as much 'fun' as I want to have landing my airplane. I fly a Cherokee 235...there seemed to be plenty of rudder left but I don't think I've concentrated that hard for 5 minutes on anything I've ever done in my life. I learned to fly in central Texas during the winter, spring and summer - mostly in mid-afternoon with a CFI who loved to ask the tower if I could land on the crosswind runway...so I'm definitely not afraid of a little xwind...

I agree with the one poster though who said they are fun - makes you remember that you are flying the damn thing.

I doubt you had much rudder left at the top of those gusts, 28-30 is about all I've been able to keep a Cherokee straight in with the rudder on the floor.

 

[Henning]

Wrong terminology and concept.... again....

"...pushed by the xwind" is weather vaning.

On take off, you allow the wind to weather vane you into a crab, allowing you to maintain the centerline as you take off.

The wind does not 'weather vane you in the air as you fly directly into the relative wind. You choose the crab angle to balance the drift effect of the wind on your track line to match your desired course over the ground. The wind only yaws you in the gust because gusting winds typically veer 15° from the static wind, direction depends whether you are flying towards the high or low.

Weathervaning does not become possible until there is a wheel on the ground to provide a pivot point.

 

[Henning]

Not careless and reckless. A tower controller will let you land any which way you want, but will include "at your own risk" in the landing clearance.

Bob Gardner

Yep, I've come in and asked to line up on a taxiway perpendicular to the runway and been "cleared at your own risk, land Taxiway Tango" or whatever on more than one occasion. Apparently they prefer you to execute a taxiway landing into a 45 kt headwind than to have to deal with the potential results of a crosswind landing gone bad.

 

[FastEddieB]

"...pushed by the xwind" is weather vaning.

On take off, you allow the wind to weather vane you into a crab, allowing you to maintain the centerline as you take off.

--

Had my very first experience of this just today! I'm taking off on 34 into a 10 mph xwind, and about two seconds after rotation, I'm suddenly looking a whole lot more east than I'd bargained for...

Expanding on what iHenning and AggieMike88 already pointed out...

Once you were in the air, there is no mechanism by which a crosswind can "weathervane" you into the wind. Even a strong crosswind would just move the plane laterally across the ground, and not yaw it at all. Remember, "wind" is just the movement of a parcel of air relative to the ground. Once free of the ground, there is no wind, barring gusts, as mentioned below. The plane is just moving through a parcel of air which is itself moving.

This is what I generally call a "Stick and Rudder Moment".

The only explanation for what you experienced is a gust hitting the tail that did not hit the rest of the plane.

Or such is my impression.

 

[MAKG1]

The appropriate answer here is to consult your metal landing calculator!! You folks are slipping!

Well, duh! You're supposed to be slipping in a crosswind.

 

[stratobee]

I happened to catch my worst crosswind encounter in my old plane on tape by pure chance. It was a pretty sobering experience, but considering it was gusting a flanking 28kts, I think I did pretty well. It starts at 2:28 in when I screw up and get so far blown off course I have to go around. It starts to get real hairy from around 3:25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iFx9uaHzQI&list=UUTrG-tHJbJT5lt1lkIXvXNw

 

[bullwinkle]

Had a fun one a couple of weeks ago. I took off at the home airport directly into a 5kt wind. In the time it took me to get around the pattern, the wind transformed into a direct 12G15 knot crosswind.

That sure felt like a lot of wind for my little airplane with a ~1100lb weight at the time. I got it down, but that was enough flying for that day for me.

 

[FastEddieB]

It starts at 2:28 in when I screw up and get so far blown off course I have to go around. It starts to get real hairy from around 3:25.

Landing looked fine to me!

This is a case where if you had angled across the runway, starting your flare from the left side, you really could have cut down the crosswind component a bit.

If you've never tried it, do so - it really does make a difference.

 

[MyassisDragon]

Anyways, my question is whether 30 degree crosswind at 18G21 is considered nothing, moderate, or high cross-wind? I'm in a Cherokee. I kept saying, "the wind is blowing me off center" and he kept saying "what wind? this is nothing".

Back to the original question. Like many have posted here I will reiterate (maybe not verbatim) As you continue to develop your skills what is comfortable and "Strong" will change and it will always be different for different pilots. When I was working on my PPL 18kt gusting to 22kt would have made me quite uncomfortable but a few years later its not a problem knowing my skills are better and banking on the fact I dont have to land it and can go around any time I get squeamish lets me continue to see where my line is.

Last weekend I landed a Grumman Tiger in 19kt gusting to 28kt near direct 90 degree. Was surprised I didnt run out of rudder. Kind of funny it was a triple squeaker on the left wheel and I used about 50 ft of width on the runway when a gust hit before the second main came down. But I had 12,300lg x 150w of runway and I could always go around so no worries.
Was the first time my wife actually complimented me on my landing

Now just a short time ago I would have been looking for an alternate, but my confidence in skills and the ability to call it and go around has gotten much better, and so will yours.

 

[MyassisDragon]

I happened to catch my worst crosswind encounter in my old plane on tape by pure chance. It was a pretty sobering experience, but considering it was gusting a flanking 28kts, I think I did pretty well. It starts at 2:28 in when I screw up and get so far blown off course I have to go around. It starts to get real hairy from around 3:25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iFx9uaHzQI&list=UUTrG-tHJbJT5lt1lkIXvXNw

I think you did pretty well also.

The only thing I want to comment on is make sure your ipad is not interfering with your compass. I loved mounting mine there but I noticed it would cause a 30 shift in my compass with the plane running. Go figure, it was fine normally but there was something weird about it that when the avionics were on and I moved the ipad to the center of the dash the compass would retreat. Gremlins....

 

[stratobee]

I think you did pretty well also.

The only thing I want to comment on is make sure your ipad is not interfering with your compass. I loved mounting mine there but I noticed it would cause a 30 shift in my compass with the plane running. Go figure, it was fine normally but there was something weird about it that when the avionics were on and I moved the ipad to the center of the dash the compass would retreat. Gremlins....

It did interfere quite severely, but I was strictly VFR in the old plane, so I kinda lived with it as I loved having the iPad there.

 

[chemgeek]

I agree with whoever said if first. If you are uncomfortable, that's your limit. Having said that, practice with an instructor can increase your confidence limit. But eventually you will encounter a crosswind lavel that you don't want to play with again, period, and there's your limit. Gusty, turbulent crosswinds (say, behind a hill or stand of trees) will be harder to handle than a steady crosswind. You have to factor that in too. (That pretty much describes every day at my home drome-a 15 kt direct crosswind will keep you very busy on final, and it's shameful but entertaining to watch itinerant pilots cope. Locals know the secret calm spot on the runway.)

 

[DavidWhite]

Strong is subjective, like the guy above me said when you're uncomfortable it's time to go somewhere else.

 

[orange]

Thanks to those who tried to answer the actual question. To those who post just to hear yourselves talk or show what a great pilot you are...

To clarify... I was asking if you would consider that a crosswind landing, even if a low or moderate crosswind. Because my CFI refused to acknowledge that there was a crosswind that day and said the wind is nothing. His exact words were "the movement of the plane was not the wind, but the pilot"

 

[alfadog]

To clarify... I was asking if you would consider that a crosswind landing, even if a low or moderate crosswind. Because my CFI refused to acknowledge that there was a crosswind that day and said the wind is nothing. His exact words were "the movement of the plane was not the wind, but the pilot"

Reinforces my opinion that he was simply trying to get you to stop making excuses, i.e. stop blaming the wind.

 

[orange]

Thank you! I was starting to feel bad for the OP, because of all the sarcastic responses here. I wonder how many people with perfectly good questions are discouraged from asking them.

Kat,
Thanks for considering my feelings, but I've been on several boards and there are always clowns on every single one. Some are funny but helpful, some are not funny but think they are, some just post to show how much they know, some that post a lot of stuff they would never say to your face, and some post completely incorrect info. Every single board has the same types of characters, but that's what makes it fun. It keeps it lively. If I didn't have to spend 45 extra minutes filtering out the crap answers to get to the real ones, I'd have too much free time. Borrrrring.

There are also a lot of good posters who offer sound advice (I have gotten and utilized lots of good landing info that I use and have improved my landings considerably), members who go out of their way to speak with me on the phone to offer advice, or who do research or make a call to find info about my SODA, etc. So I don't let the non-constructive posts affect me in any way.

I don't get offended or insulted at anything written on an anonymous internet board. I can't think of anything that somebody can say to me online that would deter me from I'm doing or how I'm doing it. Somebody posted that I shouldn't be a pilot since I haven't solo'ed yet and have over 50 hours.

Remember, everybody has the right to their opinion. And it's easy to give opinions on an anonymous message board.

 

[LDJones]

What's a strong crosswind? I just flew from Minneapolis to Moorhead in our trust little Cherokee 140. Wind while landing on rwy 12 was 190 at 23G30. It took maximum right aileron and that was just barely enough. So, I'm going to nominate it as a "strong crosswind"!

 

[Henning]

Thanks to those who tried to answer the actual question. To those who post just to hear yourselves talk or show what a great pilot you are...

To clarify... I was asking if you would consider that a crosswind landing, even if a low or moderate crosswind. Because my CFI refused to acknowledge that there was a crosswind that day and said the wind is nothing. His exact words were "the movement of the plane was not the wind, but the pilot"

At that component it should have been manageable by the pilot, he is correct.

 

[orange]

At that component it should have been manageable by the pilot, he is correct.

I agree, it was manageable, but to say that there was NO wind is a bit much. That is my whole point, that he didn't want to acknowledge that there was a crosswind, a minor to moderate one, depending on your experience level.

 

[JoeFromKS]

"...pushed by the xwind" is weather vaning.

On take off, you allow the wind to weather vane you into a crab, allowing you to maintain the centerline as you take off.

--

Had my very first experience of this just today! I'm taking off on 34 into a 10 mph xwind, and about two seconds after rotation, I'm suddenly looking a whole lot more east than I'd bargained for. The wind was coming in from 070, and the 172 just spun around right into it. It took a couple seconds to catch up with what was happening, but you're right: relaxing into it a bit enabled me to stay over the runway for the duration.

It was a big bad windy afternoon everywhere west of the Cascades today, so of course we went out to work on maneuvers. I hate practicing stalls, and doing it in a stiff wind made it that much more challenging. But if you don't make it hard, you don't learn, right?

Whatever you want to call it, I've noticed this too. When you're taking off and holding correct crosswind control inputs, after lift-off the plane seems to automatically point itself to track the centerline.

 

[FastEddieB]

Whatever you want to call it, I've noticed this too. When you're taking off and holding correct crosswind control inputs, after lift-off the plane seems to automatically point itself to track the centerline.

A weathervane and a plane on the ground have something in common: a pivot point that the wind can work against. In each case the larger vertical surface aft of the pivot point causes the weathervane or the plane to point into the wind.

But...

At the very instant the plane's tires leave the surface, there's no longer a pivot point for the wind to work against. From that point on, barring gusts, the plane will simply move sideways with the moving air mass with no tendency to point into the wind.

So, where does this illusion come from? I think you hinted at it with "holding correct crosswind control inputs". As the plane leaves the ground, some aileron should still be held into the wind. So the plane begins a turn into the wind, not due to "weathervaning" but simply due to the control inputs.

I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one, but am open to persuasion.

 

[JoeFromKS]

Well now that I think about it a little more, the wind does have a pivot point. On the ground, the relative motion of the x wind on the plane is the x wind speed, and in the air there is no relative motion of the x wind on the plane because the plane is flying in the wind. Right at liftoff there is a transitional period where the wind is working against the inertia of the plane to accelerate the plane to the x wind component. During that transition you would be weathervaning about the center of gravity.