No PPL Required for ultralights?

[SixPapaCharlie]

I got curious after reading another how much toes a PPL cost thread.

It sounds like you can go fly an ultralight with no license. Is that true?
I then went and looked for the cheapest "plane" that was not a gokart /hang glider and found this:

www.aerotrader.com/listing/1991-Sorrell-Aircraft-Company-Ltd-Hiperlight-Sns-8-112942234

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?
At what age could someone do this? There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Can it land at class E/G airports?

 

[bullwinkle]

Yup...no certificate required. I'm not even sure the FAA considers them "aircraft". But the limitations are pretty constraining -- 254lb empty weight, no more than 5 gallons of fuel, and severe max speed and stall speed limitations.

They are fun though!

 

[warthog1984]

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?
At what age could someone do this? There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Yup, it's not an aircraft so anything goes as long as you stay out of controlled airspace.

As far as "There has to be some sort of rule about this", .

CS Lewis was right, the abolition of man is complete.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Does that mean ultralights can't operate in Class E? That would be pretty limiting, as there isn't a lot of that in many places.

 

[Palmpilot]

Does that mean ultralights can't operate in Class E? That would be pretty limiting, as there isn't a lot of that in many places.

That applies within the lateral limits of class E airspace designated for an airport, and even then, you can do it if you have prior authorization from ATC.

§103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
​

The congested area restriction could be pretty limiting in some areas:

§103.15 Operations over congested areas.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.​

 

[Palmpilot]

I got curious after reading another how much toes a PPL cost thread.

It sounds like you can go fly an ultralight with no license. Is that true?
I then went and looked for the cheapest "plane" that was not a gokart /hang glider and found this:

www.aerotrader.com/listing/1991-Sorrell-Aircraft-Company-Ltd-Hiperlight-Sns-8-112942234

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?
At what age could someone do this? There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Can it land at class E/G airports?

Here are the ultralight rules:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=be608b14c0893dccc81f0831b8b29b15&node=pt14.2.103&rgn=div5

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm not even sure the FAA considers them "aircraft".

They seem to fit the definition of "aircraft" in 14 CFR 1.1, but Part 103 refers to them as ultralight "vehicles."

 

[ClimbnSink]

Can it land at class E/G airports?

Worse if the airport takes federal money they can't ban ultralights. Super Awesome.

 

[poadeleted20]

Worse if the airport takes federal money they can't ban ultralights. Super Awesome.

That's not exactly true. They can if they can show that ultralight operations would compromise safety, and many do. See the Airport Compliance Manual FAA Order 5190.6B for details.

 

[brian]]

They do look like a LOT of fun. One comment my uncle had about them did give me pause: if you have an engine out - your landing options are visible between your feet!

(Considering I know a couple of guys that have had multiple engine outs in them, it's pretty much a non event though. One guy basically landed in a neighbors yard, fixed the engine and took off gain!)

 

[ja_user]

More importantly, can you use the time to build to 1500 hours

 

[Geico266]

Worse if the airport takes federal money they can't ban ultralights. Super Awesome.

We have ul's at our airport and I've flown them for 1,000 hours. Nothing unsafe about them that I can see. Pilots are pilots. Pilots in RV's, Cirrus, and Bo's do stupid things just like pilots in ul's. It's not the plane, its the pilot.

 

[Geico266]

More importantly, can you use the time to build to 1500 hours

No.

Ask me how I know.

 

[ClimbnSink]

We have ul's at our airport and I've flown them for 1,000 hours. Nothing unsafe about them that I can see. Pilots are pilots. Pilots in RV's, Cirrus, and Bo's do stupid things just like pilots in ul's. It's not the plane, its the pilot.

That wasn't sarcasm. I love that you don't need a license and you can fly them um anywhere.

 

[poadeleted20]

That wasn't sarcasm. I love that you don't need a license and you can fly them um anywhere.

You certainly can "fly them um anywhere", but you may get in a lot of trouble if you fly them where you aren't supposed to, and that's a lot of places.

 

[bullwinkle]

They do look like a LOT of fun. One comment my uncle had about them did give me pause: if you have an engine out - your landing options are visible between your feet!

(Considering I know a couple of guys that have had multiple engine outs in them, it's pretty much a non event though. One guy basically landed in a neighbors yard, fixed the engine and took off gain!)

Most of them have two-stroke engines, so engine failures are more common. And they do have very steep glides for the most part.

BUT...installation of a ballistic parachute is exempt from the 254lb weight allowance, so many ultralights have parachutes installed. At least that way if/when the engine quits, if there is not a field right below you you have a much less painful option that descending into hostile terrain with no structure to protect you.

 

[ClimbnSink]

You certainly can "fly them um anywhere", but you may get in a lot of trouble if you fly them where you aren't supposed to, and that's a lot of places.

That is why we fly them at night in those places.

 

[VanDy]

There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Can it land at class E/G airports?

YGBSM????

We have ul's at our airport and I've flown them for 1,000 hours. Nothing unsafe about them that I can see. Pilots are pilots. Pilots in RV's, Cirrus, and Bo's do stupid things just like pilots in ul's. It's not the plane, its the pilot.

You got that right! We have a few ultralights at my home field, they have fun just like anybody else, and have yet to get in my way or me in theirs. We all do our own thing, (only some friendly taunting ) and get along just fine. Flying is flying, drive off all of the pilots except for your 'clique' and watch how well the airport does.

Ive been for a ride in one of the experimental 2 seats, and man it was a blast!

 

[1600vw]

The regs say under 254 lbs. If your Ultralight weighs 254 lbs it is NOT an ultralight.

The FAA views Ultralights as Vehicles. Not aircraft or airplane.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

*sigh*

I see me asking if there is a rule has been misconstrued as me stating there should be a rule.

 

[VanDy]

Granted I do not speak the most proper english, however... I believe there is quite a difference between "There has to be some sort of rule about this no? "

and "Is there a rule about this?"

That's the way i first read it, and still do. Maybe something was lost when typed out?

I got curious after reading another how much toes a PPL cost thread.

It sounds like you can go fly an ultralight with no license. Is that true?
I then went and looked for the cheapest "plane" that was not a gokart /hang glider and found this:

www.aerotrader.com/listing/1991-Sorrell-Aircraft-Company-Ltd-Hiperlight-Sns-8-112942234

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?
At what age could someone do this? There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Can it land at class E/G airports?

*sigh*

I see me asking if there is a rule has been misconstrued as me stating there should be a rule.

 

[poadeleted20]

To go back to your original questions and give straight answers...

It sounds like you can go fly an ultralight with no license. Is that true?

Yes.

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?

Yes.

At what age could someone do this?

Any age.

There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Nope.

Can it land at class E/G airports?

Generally, yes, unless there's E-to-the-surface, or the airport ha gone through the FAA-approved process to prohibit UL operations (see the FAA Airport Compliance Manual).

 

[FormerHangie]

I got curious after reading another how much toes a PPL cost thread.

It sounds like you can go fly an ultralight with no license. Is that true?
I then went and looked for the cheapest "plane" that was not a gokart /hang glider and found this:

www.aerotrader.com/listing/1991-Sorrell-Aircraft-Company-Ltd-Hiperlight-Sns-8-112942234

So for ~5 Gs anyone could get this thing and go buzzing around legally?
At what age could someone do this? There has to be some sort of rule about this no?

Can it land at class E/G airports?

Kolb makes a kit for a fairly airplane-like Part 103 legal ultralight.

 

[CTLSi]

The rules are:

Seats
1
Max. Empty Weight (Powered Aircraft)
254 lbs
Max. Empty Weight (Unpowered Aircraft)
155 lbs
Max. Fuel Capacity
5 Gallons
Max. Speed @ Full Power
55 knots
Max. Stall Speed (Power Off)
24 knots
If the aircraft has more than 1-seat or exceeds any of the above criteria, is not an ultralight, and thus not eligible for operation under Part 103.


if it has two seats for instance, you need a Sport Pilot license or higher.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The rules are:

Seats
1
Max. Empty Weight (Powered Aircraft)
254 lbs
Max. Empty Weight (Unpowered Aircraft)
155 lbs
Max. Fuel Capacity
5 Gallons
Max. Speed @ Full Power
55 knots
Max. Stall Speed (Power Off)
24 knots
If the aircraft has more than 1-seat or exceeds any of the above criteria, is not an ultralight, and thus not eligible for operation under Part 103.


if it has two seats for instance, you need a Sport Pilot license or higher.

There are still two seat exemptions under pt 103.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

how do you learn to fly 1 if there's only one seat? I'm assuming you would have to learn in one that is classified as sport category?

 

[FormerHangie]

how do you learn to fly 1 if there's only one seat? I'm assuming you would have to learn in one that is classified as sport category?

Yep, you fly one that is an LSA. Quicksilver, among others, have models that are SLSA compliant and can be used for instruction.

 

[warthog1984]

how do you learn to fly 1 if there's only one seat? I'm assuming you would have to learn in one that is classified as sport category?

Ground instruction, taxiing, and a radio.

 

[CTLSi]

SLSA weight shift kites also known as ultralights and flex-wing trikes are two seaters. They sit one behind the other. They cost $100k new and run Rotax carb'd and fuel injected engines. They have a carbon fiber body and have avionics, radio, tricycle gear. To fly one you need to be a Sport Pilot. These could be used to give someone a heads up on a single seater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralight_trike

 

[F01LA]

Ground instruction, taxiing, and a radio.

This is where Rex Kramer comes in and says into the microphone "Striker! You're too low!"

 

[poadeleted20]

There are still two seat exemptions under pt 103.

You can point to that exemption, perhaps? It was my impression that those were cancelled when the LSA and Sport Pilot rules were enacted.

 

[poadeleted20]

The rules are:

Seats
1
Max. Empty Weight (Powered Aircraft)
254 lbs
Max. Empty Weight (Unpowered Aircraft)
155 lbs
Max. Fuel Capacity
5 Gallons
Max. Speed @ Full Power
55 knots
Max. Stall Speed (Power Off)
24 knots
If the aircraft has more than 1-seat or exceeds any of the above criteria, is not an ultralight, and thus not eligible for operation under Part 103.


if it has two seats for instance, you need a Sport Pilot license or higher.

...unless you hold a Student Pilot certificate and have the necessary endorsements for solo under Part 61, Subpart C. In addition, since it does not qualify as an ultralight air vehicle under Part 103 if it has two seats, the aircraft as well as the pilot has to be certified by the FAA. IOW, just having a Sport Pilot certificate does not authorize you to fly an uncertified air vehicle that does not meet Part 103 criteria.

 

[ClimbnSink]

You can point to that exemption, perhaps? It was my impression that those were cancelled when the LSA and Sport Pilot rules were enacted.

http://www.ushpa.aero/4721.asp

 

[poadeleted20]

http://www.ushpa.aero/4721.asp

I'm aware of that exemption issued in 1986. I was under the impression that it was cancelled several years ago. I did not realize it had been reissued. In addition, it doesn't do much good for initial training since:

3. Both occupants on all two-place training flights must possess a current pilot rating issued by the USHPA and at least one occupant must possess a current USHPA instructor rating.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Says issued 2012 expires Oct 2014. If they are worried about getting a renewal they haven't mentioned it to members.

 

[1600vw]

Sec. 103.1 Applicability. This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight vehicles in the United States. For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle that: (a) Is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupant; (b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes only; (c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and (d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or (e) If powered: (1) Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation; (2) Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons; (3) Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and (4) Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots calibrated airspeed.

 

[1600vw]

Sec. 103.1 Applicability. This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight vehicles in the United States. For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle that: (a) Is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupant; (b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes only; (c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and (d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or (e) If powered: (1) Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation; (2) Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons; (3) Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and (4) Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots calibrated airspeed.

I know what I speak of.....Even if you believe I don't....

Tony

 

[ClimbnSink]

USHPA issues a zero experience rating, and I know nonmembers can be taken on tandems, o idea of the paperwork involved.

 

[poadeleted20]

USHPA issues a zero experience rating, and I know nonmembers can be taken on tandems, o idea of the paperwork involved.

I don't see how that's possible under the exemption you cited.

5. Both occupants on all two-place flights, other than for training purposes, must possess a current pilot rating issued by the USHPA and at least one occupant must possess a current advanced hang glider rating issued by the USHPA.

Unless there's another exemption somewhere, or the USHPA issues pilot ratings to nonmembers, I don't see how a nonmember can be taken up on a tandem legally.

 

[FormerHangie]

USHPA issues a zero experience rating, and I know nonmembers can be taken on tandems, o idea of the paperwork involved.

You sign a waiver, pay a small fee, watch a short instructional video, and go fly with an instructor.

Please note the the USHPA waiver only covers motorless craft, hang gliders and paragliders. Also, it is very much still in effect. If you want to learn to fly a powered ultralight, you'll need an LSA.