Entering the pattern?

Another clarification. When I talked to my instructor last night I asked him specifically how he would like me to make the entry to the pattern, I will try to quote him as close as possible" He said, " you can do it anyway you want, but I would prefer that you, as a student, to enter on the 45 because it gives you opportunities to look for traffic, in the air and on the ground. You will see it done many ways as you gain more exposure. I believe at you level of experience, a 45 entry is safest. Now to the question of how I would have you enter the 45, you could either overfly the field and do the 200 or so degree turn into the wind and around to the left 45 or you could enter a left upwind 45 and turn crosswind over the threshold of 27 at tpa. But you are pilot in command, you get to decide." that is almost verbatim. It is very hard to convey in a few sentences what someone is trying to say especially when it is second hand. My instructor is fantastic and I trust him about as much as someone can under the circumstance. He know his stuff and he is trying to keep me alive. I am sure he will expose me to more as my experience dictates. I am really just a little surprised how this is such an issue. all I wanted to know was "how would you enter this 45", not " why are you doing it that way" or " why does your instructor want you to do that". I cant see how entering on a 45 at an uncontrolled field wouldn't be safer, or at the very least just as safe as any other way.
 
CTLSi said:
If you go straight-in at a Unicom field on your checkride plan to get a Notice of Disapproval (8060-5). DPEs will nail you for 'poor aeronatical decision making' on a move like that, especially if someone else is in the pattern.
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Are you a DPE? I assume you can cite an example of this actually happening? Or not. You seem to think throwing out official form numbers will make others think you are more legit.

Based on your posting history, you seem to have cavernous space in your ass for pulling things out from. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd make a straight-in If there was a reason why I had to fly the whole pattern, I'd enter upwind at TPA (no jinking/zigging -- there's no reason for a "45-to-upwind" entry), then turn crosswind, downwind, base, and final.
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when do you make your crosswind Ron ? Midfield?
 
CTLSi said:
Another fun tidbit to consider if you are on the student side of a checkride.

If you go straight-in at a Unicom field on your checkride plan to get a Notice of Disapproval (8060-5). DPEs will nail you for 'poor aeronatical decision making' on a move like that, especially if someone else is in the pattern.
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Advisory Circular 90-66A clearly shows a straight-in approach as an option. I think that a DPE would have a tough time defending a bust on that basis alone.

Bob Gardner
 
Ron Levy said:
...there's always your preflight briefing winds, smoke, trees, flags, etc, to tell you which way the wind is blowing.
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No, there are not always those things. I would challenge you to find any of them coming into my home airport...except trees...but you have to be rally close to them to get any indication of wind speed from them.
 
timwinters said:
No, there are not always those things. I would challenge you to find any of them coming into my home airport...except trees...but you have to be rally close to them to get any indication of wind speed from them.
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How far from the river are you?
 
Henning said:
How far from the river are you?
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To the closest bend...

According to ForeFlight 25.7 NM @ 214 magnetic.

Again, KFAM is only 11 NM away and has an AWOS...but I've seen quite significant differences in wind speeds and directions between the two fields.
 
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timwinters said:
To the closest bend...

According to ForeFlight 25.7 NM @ 214 magnetic.

Again, KFAM is only 11 NM away and has an AWOS...but I've seen quite significant differences in wind speeds and directions between the two fields.
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Yeah, you're too far from the water to make use.
 
Concorde said:
when do you make your crosswind Ron ? Midfield?
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Right where the AIM picture shows the crosswind leg -- maybe a 1/4-1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway. Crossing over the middle of the airport is not a "crosswind leg" as it is depicted in any FAA publication I've seen.
 
bobmrg said:
Advisory Circular 90-66A clearly shows a straight-in approach as an option. I think that a DPE would have a tough time defending a bust on that basis alone.
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For those unfamiliar, Bob should know, 'cause he used to be one.
 
timwinters said:
No, there are not always those things. I would challenge you to find any of them coming into my home airport...except trees...but you have to be rally close to them to get any indication of wind speed from them.
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You've always got at least one of them unless you are already violating 91.103. And if your preflight winds are wrong and you don't have a radio and there's nobody else in the pattern, you'll figure it out on downwind anyway, and then enter the pattern for the other runway more favored by the wind.
 
Ron Levy said:
You've always got at least one of them unless you are already violating 91.103.
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And how would you be in violation if your destination field doesn't have an ASOS/AWOS?

Ron Levy said:
And if your preflight winds are wrong and you don't have a radio and there's nobody else in the pattern, you'll figure it out on downwind anyway, and then enter the pattern for the other runway more favored by the wind.
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Well, now...if you go back and review...you'll discover that's exactly what I'm saying. That's why students should avoid straight-in approaches if there's not data on the field. Again, KFAM has an AWOS and is only 11 NM away from my home airport (H88) and there is often a significant difference between the two in both wind speed and direction...the Ozark "Mountains" (actually hills) create some funny wind eddies donchaknow.
 
timwinters said:
And how would you be in violation if your destination field doesn't have an ASOS/AWOS?
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You would have one of them (preflight winds) if you complied with 91.103, whether the destination has ASOS/AWOS or not.

Well, now...if you go back and review...you'll discover that's exactly what I'm saying. That's why students should avoid straight-in approaches if there's not data on the field.
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If you really have no data on the field, you have violated 91.103 by not familiarizing yourself with all available information pertinent to your flight including the forecast surface winds in the vicinity of your destination.

My point here is that the wind sock at your destination is merely the final confirmation of what you should already pretty well know about the winds and which runway to use based on the wind and other factors. Absence of that wind sock should not spoil your day, and you should already have planned your arrival before you see that sock. Once you do, if it shows you have a better option, reposition for that other runway, but seeing that sock prior to pattern entry should not be 100% essential to the safe conduct of your flight.
 
Ron Levy said:
but seeing that sock prior to pattern entry should not be 100% essential to the safe conduct of your flight.
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On a windy day around here it definitely is. And these are just hills. I can't imagine how localized wind speed and direction is in "real" mountains...I'm confident that it's very localized though. One of the mountain boys might chime in on that topic.

i.e. I'm not buying your "you can always get it during a thorough preflight briefing" argument. That's just not the case at my home airport. I've seen the windsock standing straight out in almost the exact opposite direction as KFAM was when I passed over it coming home and I'm confident that there are hundreds of other airports just like mine (that have locally determined wind speeds and directions).
 
timwinters said:
... I can't imagine how localized wind speed and direction is in "real" mountains.....
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We have a new humongous American flag 1 mile west of our runway and near the runway's extended centerline. The flag is never in agreement with the runway's closest windsock 1-mile away.
 
CharlieTango said:
We have a new humongous American flag 1 mile west of our runway and near the runway's extended centerline. The flag is never in agreement with the runway's closest windsock 1-mile away.
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Hell, the two windsocks at Gnoss Field (Novato, CA) are notorious for pointing in opposite directions in a terrain-induced Charlie Foxtrot.
 
I have had the experience of having wind direction going with my downwind leg that was ok when at TPA. Then when I got <400 AGL I knew my GS was too high. I went around and flew the pattern the other way.
 
I use a porcelain landing calculator.
Actually. Could be ceramic. I ordered porcelain though.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I use a porcelain landing calculator.
Actually. Could be ceramic. I ordered porcelain though.
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That really makes you a pro.

The normal progression is paper to plastic to metal to glass to porcelain. It was even this way back in the '70s!

Fat-Joint.png


Acrylic-Bong-psd86852.png


metal_dugout_pipe_big.jpg


Black-Leaf-Glass-Bong-Double-Spiral-Bong.jpg


main_4_way_alien_head.jpg
 
CharlieTango said:
On our windy days my 3 choices are:
  • Land downwind on 09
  • Land downwind on 27
  • Land mid-field with throttle wide open
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I remember one landing where the runway was just 150 long... but 7000 feet wide.
 
mikeinbama said:
Good read, thanks Bob! But for clarity, is an AC regulatory?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The AC provides guidance on what a pilot can do, with several options provided.
The decision on which option to choose is up to the pilot.

Bob
 
timwinters said:
.e. I'm not buying your "you can always get it during a thorough preflight briefing" argument. That's just not the case at my home airport.
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There is nowhere in the United States where surface winds are not forecast, and you can get them via DUATS, ADDS, or FSS. You can start here.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is nowhere in the United States where surface winds are not forecast, and you can get them via DUATS, ADDS, or FSS. You can start here.
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Understood but there are a lot of places where they're not accurate. That's the point Ron.
 
timwinters said:
Understood but there are a lot of places where they're not accurate. That's the point Ron.
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In such places, even the wind socks aren't that accurate, but if there is one, you'll see it once you're in the pattern and can change your plan if necessary. But my point here is that you don't need ASOS/AWOS to tell you which runway traffic pattern to enter, and you can do that safely even without seeing the sock until you're in the pattern. Even without preflight winds, flags, trees, etc, if you have a radio and there's anyone at the UNICOM or in the pattern, you can get the wind from them from a lot farther out than you can see the sock. Or overfly the airport safely above pattern altitude. Or any of a dozen other options -- use your imagination and don't be a slave to one source of wind data.
 
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