The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew for the first time in 1908.

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simplex1

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simplex1
The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew for the first time in 1908.

I know that books teach us the Wright brothers were the first to fly but if one starts to study primary sources, documents of the time, he finds absolutely no serious evidence the two inventors really flew in 1903, 1904 or 1905.

There are many technical problems with Flyer I 1903. The plane was unstable, underpowered and had propellers that appeared only in 1908, exactly in the same year when the Wright brothers flew for the first time in front of credible witnesses using planes built in France in 1908 with french engines (Bariquand & Marre) and french propellers.

Beside the technical aspects (see the internet address I attached at the end of the message for a detailed analysis) which demonstrate "Flyer I 1903" was unflyable there is also the declaration of Alpheus W. Drinkwater, telegraph operator, who clearly states:

"the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908"

"Wilbur and Orville Wright are credited with making their first powered flight in a heavier-than-air machine on Dec. 17, 1903. But Alpheus W. Drinkwater, 76 years old, who sent the telegraph message ushering in the air age, said the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908, he said." Source: New York Times, Dec. 17, 1951.

Another witness, John T. Daniels, in a letter addressed to a friend, wrote he had seen the plane being carried up on a hill twice. In one picture, Daniels claimed he had made himself (see the attached link), the slope going down in front of the airplane, that had just taken off, is visible. Another picture, with the plane landed, display a big sand dune in the background as if the plane came from it.

For more details and evidence see: http://wright-brothers.wikidot.com and read it with care before making any comment.
 
Folks, play nice with this. Good discussion welcome, making it personal is not.
 
simplex1 said:
The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew for the first time in 1908.

I know that books teach us the Wright brothers were the first to fly but if one starts to study primary sources, documents of the time, he finds absolutely no serious evidence the two inventors really flew in 1903, 1904 or 1905.

There are many technical problems with Flyer I 1903. The plane was unstable, underpowered and had propellers that appeared only in 1908, exactly in the same year when the Wright brothers flew for the first time in front of credible witnesses using planes built in France in 1908 with french engines (Bariquand & Marre) and french propellers.

Beside the technical aspects (see the internet address I attached at the end of the message for a detailed analysis) which demonstrate "Flyer I 1903" was unflyable there is also the declaration of Alpheus W. Drinkwater, telegraph operator, who clearly states:

"the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908"

"Wilbur and Orville Wright are credited with making their first powered flight in a heavier-than-air machine on Dec. 17, 1903. But Alpheus W. Drinkwater, 76 years old, who sent the telegraph message ushering in the air age, said the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908, he said." Source: New York Times, Dec. 17, 1951.

Another witness, John T. Daniels, in a letter addressed to a friend, wrote he had seen the plane being carried up on a hill twice. In one picture, Daniels claimed he had made himself (see the attached link), the slope going down in front of the airplane, that had just taken off, is visible. Another picture, with the plane landed, display a big sand dune in the background as if the plane came from it.

For more details and evidence see: http://wright-brothers.wikidot.com and read it with care before making any comment.
Click to expand...

If you believe there exists no evidence that the Wright Brothers achieved powered, sustained, controlled, heavier-than-air flight on December 17, 1903, then you haven't looked for evidence.
 
Otto flew long before the clown brothers. Only reason to have any respect for them was they realized long before most anyone else that soaring flight is the pinnacle of human achievement, motor flight just a convenience, like the railroads, only less comfortable.:lol::rofl::D
 
Dav8or said:
The whole thing was a Hollywood hoax. The Wright Brothers never flew at all.
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Not only did they not fly but they never existed. Hollywood used stunt doubles. The Curtis lawsuit was just another Hollywood hoax to promote future aviation movies. It was always about the movies.
 
The brothers had great marketing skills. Go with it.
 
Didn't have time to look it up this morning but isn't there a couple of guys in France that claimed to fly before the wright bros. If I recall, several successful flights but less press than the wright bros.

I believe there was one photo.

Not saying it is or isn't true more or less wondering if anyone has details on those guys, or if that is a possibility.
 
"Flyer I 1903" had a propeller placed underneath that revolved horizontally!!, according to an article signed Wilbur Wright and published in Feb. 1904

"One of the propellers was set to revolve vertically and intended to give a forward motion, while the other underneath the machine and revolving horizontally, was to assist in sustaining it in the air. … After the motor device was completed, two flights were made by my brother and two by myself on December 17th last."
Source, "The Experiments of a Flying Man", author Wilbur Wright, The Independent, Feb. 04, 1904, pag. 246, internet address http://www.loc.gov/resource/mwright.05001173/#seq-4

Definitely, the flying machine W. Wright talked about in the article is not the one with two pusher propellers, well known from pictures published for the first time in September 1908 in "The Wright Brothers' Aeroplane" that appeared in The Century Magazine (see http://www.loc.gov/resource/mwright.05001574/#seq-1 , page 644 ).

In conclusion, two different articles, written by the same Wright brothers and published more than four years and half apart, talk about two distinct airplanes (two different Flyer I) as flying on Dec. 17, 1903. The brothers definitely lied in one of the two texts or in both. There is no way they could have told the truth in both articles.

"Flyer I" with a propeller beneath appeared in numerous publications as late as May 1906 (see ex.: http://www.loc.gov/resource/mwright.05001/#seq-58 ).
 
Everyone here knows that heavier than air flight is impossible anyway.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Didn't have time to look it up this morning but isn't there a couple of guys in France that claimed to fly before the wright bros. If I recall, several successful flights but less press than the wright bros.

I believe there was one photo.

Not saying it is or isn't true more or less wondering if anyone has details on those guys, or if that is a possibility.
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Santos Dumont flew in 1906, but I don't think that aircraft was controllable or capable of sustained flight.
 
Is the OP suggesting that gliding is not flight? I think some of our glider pilots may take offense to that.
 
Ha!

Jacob Brodbeck of Fredericksburg, Texas flew long before all that anyway!
 
The 2003 replica of "Flyer I 1903" couldn't fly more than 115 feet (35 m)

The 2003 accurate replica of the Wright brothers' plane (tested on December 17, 1903) was not able to do more than short flights (using a more powerful engine than the original). None of its takeoffs came close to the claimed 59 seconds flight performed on December 17, 1903. What the 2003 experiment really showed was that the 1903 airplane could have been theoretically able to take off and fly chaotically for 100 - 115 feet, no more. "Flyer I" was uncontrollable and not capable to execute a sustained 59 sec. flight.

1) "On November 20, 2003, Dr. Kevin Kochersberger piloted the 1903 Wright Experience Replica Flyer. With 15-18 mph winds he flew a distance of nearly 100 feet."
see video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1mscspl-VU

2) "December 3, 2003 test flight of the Wright Experience 1903 Wright Flyer Replica. Dr. Kevin Kochersberger was at the controls and piloted the Flyer for a distance of 115 feet. Slight cross wind after initial rotation which is compensated with slight wing warp."
see video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg46QLzO3b0
 
What books say the Wrights were the first to fly?

The first documented manned flight was by the Montgolfier brothers in 1783.

You need a lot of qualifications to put the Wrights first.

By all accounts, the 1903 Flyer was a very crude airplane, but it certainly did fly.
 
If the Wrights did not sustain powered flight on 17 Dec 1903 it was Bushes fault - a little spin zone humor.
 
If they flew in front of witnesses in 1908 then they would have done that some time before - you don't take your creation out to fail in front of witnesses . . . . .

So sometime between 17 Dec 03 and 6 May 08 they figured out how to do it in a sustained fashion.

Even if the motor they had on the 1903 airframe only extended the gliding range -then they are also credited with inventing single engine out flight - with the motor taking them to the scene of the crash.
 
simplex1 said:
The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew for the first time in 1908.

I know that books teach us the Wright brothers were the first to fly but if one starts to study primary sources, documents of the time, he finds absolutely no serious evidence the two inventors really flew in 1903, 1904 or 1905.

There are many technical problems with Flyer I 1903. The plane was unstable, underpowered and had propellers that appeared only in 1908, exactly in the same year when the Wright brothers flew for the first time in front of credible witnesses using planes built in France in 1908 with french engines (Bariquand & Marre) and french propellers.

Beside the technical aspects (see the internet address I attached at the end of the message for a detailed analysis) which demonstrate "Flyer I 1903" was unflyable there is also the declaration of Alpheus W. Drinkwater, telegraph operator, who clearly states:

"the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908"

"Wilbur and Orville Wright are credited with making their first powered flight in a heavier-than-air machine on Dec. 17, 1903. But Alpheus W. Drinkwater, 76 years old, who sent the telegraph message ushering in the air age, said the brothers only “glided” off Kill Devil Hill that day. Their first real flight came on May 6, 1908, he said." Source: New York Times, Dec. 17, 1951.

Another witness, John T. Daniels, in a letter addressed to a friend, wrote he had seen the plane being carried up on a hill twice. In one picture, Daniels claimed he had made himself (see the attached link), the slope going down in front of the airplane, that had just taken off, is visible. Another picture, with the plane landed, display a big sand dune in the background as if the plane came from it.

For more details and evidence see: http://wright-brothers.wikidot.com and read it with care before making any comment.
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Trolling? :yes::yes:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Didn't have time to look it up this morning but isn't there a couple of guys in France that claimed to fly before the wright bros. If I recall, several successful flights but less press than the wright bros.

I believe there was one photo.

Not saying it is or isn't true more or less wondering if anyone has details on those guys, or if that is a possibility.
Click to expand...

The Wright brothers achieved powered, sustained, controlled, heavier-than-air flight on December 17, 1903. To this day there is no credible evidence that anyone achieved the same feat on an earlier date. Control is the key; the Wrights worked out the physics needed to create a system to control their craft in all three axes. They were not the first to build a powered heavier-than-air machine able to make brief hops aloft, Clement Ader did that in 1890. His craft, the Éole, was not equipped with flight controls.
 
comanchepilot said:
If they flew in front of witnesses in 1908 then they would have done that some time before - you don't take your creation out to fail in front of witnesses . . . . .
So sometime between 17 Dec 03 and 6 May 08 they figured out how to do it in a sustained fashion.
Click to expand...

They (more specifically W. Wright) flew for the first time in front of credible witnesses in France on August 8, 1908 (1 min and 45 sec.). In May 1908 the two brothers made test flights at Kitty Hawk but they refused to be witnessed. However, some journalists allegedly spied on them from far away and managed to take even some pictures.

The images can be found here, (L'Aerophile, 1 July 1908 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6550620m/f260.image.r=wright.langEN ). However, the tall sand dune is again present behind the plane. It appears the brothers still glided down the slope. How can I believe that they were able to fly about 40 minutes in 1905 in Dayton, Ohio over a flat pasture if they still needed a hill and strong winds to fly as late as May 1908.
In a letter published in L'Aerophile, in which the two brothers gave technical details about all their claimed flights in May 1908, they also specified the wind speed as being between 4 and 9 m/s. (see L'Aerophile 15 June 1908, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6550620m/f232.image.r=wright mai.langEN ).

The Wright brothers succeed in making real sustained flights, without the need of a hill and strong winds, sometimes between May 6, 1908 and Aug. 8 1908, not before.
 
1908, 1903, same same for all practical and historical purposes.
 
roncachamp said:
Clement Ader did that in 1890. His craft, the Éole, was not equipped with flight controls.
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This is what L'Aeronaute journal wrote in 1894 about Clement Ader's plane:

"En 1891, M. Clément Ader, bien connu par le téléphone qu'il a inventé, construisit un aéroplane mû par une hélice. Les journaux annoncèrent que l'appareil s'était envolé ; mais personne ne put jamais le voir ni à terre ni en l'air."
Source: L'Aeronaute Paris, 1894/11, pag. 251; http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5699551r/f9.image.r=Clement.langEN

So, in translation, the newspapers announced in 1891 that a flying machine built by Clement Ader had flown but nobody has ever seen the plane neither on the ground nor in the air.

The flight of Ader is just a claim. His case is worse than that of the Wright brothers because the two americans finally managed (in 1908) to appear in public with a flying machine while Clement Ader never.
 
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Again, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, so I will add "with all due respect", how does this affect you?

It is interesting to join a forum and launch into a debate, complete with sources, links, and "facts" on a topic nobody really was busy debating.

Lots of people in life believe lots of things. Lots of people are skeptical on lots of things, even when science points otherwise. All part of life and being part of a community.
 
simplex1 said:
They (more specifically W. Wright) flew for the first time in front of credible witnesses in France on August 8, 1908 (1 min and 45 sec.). In May 1908 the two brothers made test flights at Kitty Hawk but they refused to be witnessed. However, some journalists allegedly spied on them from far away and managed to take even some pictures.

The images can be found here, (L'Aerophile, 1 July 1908 http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6550620m/f260.image.r=wright.langEN ). However, the tall sand dune is again present behind the plane. It appears the brothers still glided down the slope. How can I believe that they were able to fly about 40 minutes in 1905 in Dayton, Ohio over a flat pasture if they still needed a hill and strong winds to fly as late as May 1908.
In a letter published in L'Aerophile, in which the two brothers gave technical details about all their claimed flights in May 1908, they also specified the wind speed as being between 4 and 9 m/s. (see L'Aerophile 15 June 1908, http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6550620m/f232.image.r=wright mai.langEN ).

The Wright brothers succeed in making real sustained flights, without the need of a hill and strong winds, sometimes between May 6, 1908 and Aug. 8 1908, not before.
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Hills and wind are irrelevant. The Wrights achieved powered, sustained, controlled, heavier-than-air flight on December 17, 1903. They made four flights that day.
 
simplex1 said:
For all practical purposes maybe yes. For historical purposes not because it would mean the Wright brothers were not the first but the 15th (or around position 15) to fly in a heavier than air machine.

See:
http://www.earlyaviators.com/eearlhis.htm
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I don't see how you can discount what the Wright's did as not flying when you give credit to all these others for far less achievement.

All of the other flights lacked any type of longitudinal or vertical control. Flying (as we know it today) was a direct result of the Wright Bros. development of aileron and rudder control.
The development of aileron and rudder control by the Wright Bros. is undisputed. The Wright Bros. accomplished this control by experimenting in the air with their Flyer. It is impossible to credit anyone else with a successful "controlled" flight in "heavier than air" airplane other than the Wright Bros.

Once the Wright Bros. control methods were known and copied, all the others were able to accomplish successful flights but none before.
 
simplex1 said:
How can I believe that they were able to fly about 40 minutes in 1905 in Dayton, Ohio over a flat pasture if they still needed a hill and strong winds to fly as late as May 1908.
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Because they also invented a catapult to get the required airspeed in still air.

These guys were very good engineers.
 
simplex1 said:
snip......

The Wright brothers succeed in making real sustained flights, without the need of a hill and strong winds, sometimes between May 6, 1908 and Aug. 8 1908, not before.
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The F14A routinely launches from a carrier with a 25 kt. headwind and a 40,000 lb. catapult. I take it you do not consider this flying?
 
Cruiser said:
I don't see how you can discount what the Wright's did as not flying when you give credit to all these others for far less achievement.

All of the other flights lacked any type of longitudinal or vertical control. Flying (as we know it today) was a direct result of the Wright Bros. development of aileron and rudder control.
The development of aileron and rudder control by the Wright Bros. is undisputed. The Wright Bros. accomplished this control by experimenting in the air with their Flyer. It is impossible to credit anyone else with a successful "controlled" flight in "heavier than air" airplane other than the Wright Bros.

Once the Wright Bros. control methods were known and copied, all the others were able to accomplish successful flights but none before.
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Roll, yes. Not the aileron, though. They did it by wing-warping. The aileron was first used in an airplane by Santos-Dumont, and it was the basis for the Wright patent lawsuit.

Cayley's 1804 glider had a rudder. Can't credit the Wrights for that.
 
Cruiser said:
The development of aileron and rudder control by the Wright Bros. is undisputed. The Wright Bros. accomplished this control by experimenting in the air with their Flyer. It is impossible to credit anyone else with a successful "controlled" flight in "heavier than air" airplane other than the Wright Bros.
Once the Wright Bros. control methods were known and copied, all the others were able to accomplish successful flights but none before.
Click to expand...
1) The theory that (wing warping) ailerons made the powered flight possible is a pure myth. People (Henri Farman or Leon Delagrange) flew without ailerons of any kind, in a close circuit, for about 20 minutes before the moment the Wright brothers showed their planes (Aug 8, 1908).

2) Wing warping ailerons were not invented by the Wright brothers.
Tom Crouch: "wing torsion … was first applied in practice by Edson F. Gallaudet in his 1897 craft, tested on Long Island Sound and now on public display at the NASM."
Source: http://www.flightjournal.com/blog/2013/03/27/dr-crouch-responds-to-john-brown/
Wikipedia seems to support Crouch:
"Edson Fessenden Gallaudet (April 21, 1871 – July 1, 1945) was a pioneer in the field of aviation, being the first person to experiment with warped wings in 1896."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Fessenden_Gallaudet
Wing-warping as a roll control method was used by Edson Gallaudet in 1898, according to http://www.flyingmachines.org/gallau.html .
The Wright brothers simply obtained, on May 22, 1906, a glider (not plane) patent for something already tested in 1898 by somebody else.

3) The standard ailerons were patented in 1868 by Matthew Piers Watt Boulton ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Piers_Watt_Boulton ) and first employed in a manned flight by Robert Esnault-Pelterie in 1904 (on a glider).
 
Da flippers be flippin' the pilot flappin' but da plane no flyin' cause it was not until the Cessna 172 was invented that man flew. Meaning everyman, did or could. Everything before the C-172 was a half witted stunt. For proof I cite this post in all its authoritive glory.
 
Piloting "Flyer I 1903" is "like balancing a yardstick on one finger, two at one time. If you lose it, it goes — quickly, said Fred Culick ..."

(1)"EL SEGUNDO, Calif. (AP) — Aviation experts ... have found the Wright stuff — in the hands of modern pilots ... — is a little wrong."
(2)"I'd say it was almost a miracle they were able to fly it, said Jack Cherne"
(3)"Using that data, they created a computer flight simulator that shows the plane to be so unstable, it is nearly impossible to fly."
(4)"It's like balancing a yardstick on one finger, two at one time. If you lose it, it goes — quickly, said Fred Culick ..."
(5)"Every pilot, his first try, crashed the simulator. It took less than a second, said Capt. Tim Jorris".
(6)"I thoroughly cannot imagine the Wright brothers, having very little experience in powered aircraft, getting this airborne and flying, said Major Mike Jansen. "My respect for what they did went up immediately the first time I took the controls.""
(7)"Modifications will include ... . A computer feedback system will assist the pilot. We want the experience, but we don't want to kill ourselves, Cherne said."

see: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/science/astro/2001-07-05-wright-flyer.htm
 
Next thing simplex is going to tell us is that the scales were invented in Toledo, Ohio.
 
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