Why climb for ice?

It's not taught well, but it's now in the question pool for the instrument, including tailplane icing, etc. I guess that's one way to get CFI's to teach it. :)
 
denverpilot said:
It's not taught well, but it's now in the question pool for the instrument, including tailplane icing, etc. I guess that's one way to get CFI's to teach it. :)
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THE INSTRUMENT WRITTEN... now where is that smilie for slapping my face?
 
My bad....I read the last 2 pages of the thread on my phone.

Kut me Sum Zlack
 
scottd said:
Let's see if I can summarize...

Structural ice can form at any temperature below 0° down to the theoretical limit of -40°C. Of course, it's the total temperature that counts, not the static air temperature (OAT). Total temperature is just the skin surface temperature of the aircraft.

So, we generally see (in pilot reports) structural icing occur the most when the static temperature is between -2°C and -(minus) 15°C as I describe in this e-Tip I sent to my members. However, supercooled liquid water has been seen in nature (through research aircraft) as cold as -37.5°C. Once you get to temperatures below -15°C, the occurrences drop off quickly. BUT, we still see a fair number of icing reports with static temperatures as cold as -25°C.
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That sounds accurate.

Since I'm unlucky, I've gotten ice down at -30C. But by -40C, I usually don't get any.

But my plane sure does go fast that cold! :D
 
Ron Levy said:
The problem is folks who believe ice is manageable without that equipment, or that having deicing equipment makes all ice manageable, and suggesting that one can fly 23,000 hours and only find "bad ice" a handful of times scares me. To my thinking, all ice is bad ice. The only differentiation is that some ice is worse.
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I never encountered icing conditions in flight that the Part 25 birds I flew couldn't handle (hot wings, etc).

The bad ice for such airplanes is on taxiout or takeoff.
 
aterpster said:
I never encountered icing conditions in flight that the Part 25 birds I flew couldn't handle (hot wings, etc).

The bad ice for such airplanes is on taxiout or takeoff.
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True, but Ron (and most of the folks here), don't have that privilege. :)
 
I have encountered it. Over the Bering sea. ...my own d_mned fault. We barely made it outta dere.
 
First, don't fly in "known icing." This includes flying an any area where it is know that icing may occur. This can be in clouds at or above the freezing levels indicated in the Airmets for your area. A good place to look to avoid icing are the winds aloft in your standard briefing as there bracket the area you'll be flying in. The local freezing level can be any altitude bracklet where the temperature changes from + degrees to - degrees.

Though temperature inversions are associated with icing (warmer air above colder air), these conditions can result in freezing rain that rapidly accumulates on the airframe, compromises lift, and makes it unlikely that most light aircraft would be able to climb high and fast enough to escape icing conditions unless the cloud tops are very close.

Best case is to avoid icing conditions and, failing that, to execute a prompt 180 degree turn as soon as icing conditions are encountered.

Scott Best, CFII
OBX Flight
 
Brian Austin said:
Think about the moisture content in the air at different altitudes.

Without moisture (or enough, anyway), ice can't form. I've heard (but can't quote from anywhere primarily because I'm too darn lazy at the moment) that the Arctic is actually as dry or drier than the Sahara. Even though it's obviously very cold there, relatively little snow or ice is formed except during its spring and autumn.
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Your absolutely right!! It does get like that in the interior here in Fairbanks, AK.. It gets so cold, that we actually get negative Humity..drier than the Sahara, you are correct! Inversion layers usually are about 2k-3,000ft agl here..

I remember one flight i did for my instrument training.. We took off at about -20*C, climbed to the vectoring altitudes for approach (Roughly 4-5,000ft AGL) the temp was 11*F
 
aterpster said:
I never encountered icing conditions in flight that the Part 25 birds I flew couldn't handle (hot wings, etc).

The bad ice for such airplanes is on taxiout or takeoff.
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My next door neighbor claims to have landed a Republic DC-9 at MSP with so much ice he was using pretty much full thrust and it would not have been able to go around. But that was only one time and he's a very senior captain with Delta now.
 
gismo said:
My next door neighbor claims to have landed a Republic DC-9 at MSP with so much ice he was using pretty much full thrust and it would not have been able to go around. But that was only one time and he's a very senior captain with Delta now.
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I'm not questioning this but how do you land a DC-9 at full thrust and not go off the end of the runway? I know very little about turbines but it seems to me they need a lot of runway under normal conditions.
 
Wingsofglass said:
I'm not questioning this but how do you land a DC-9 at full thrust and not go off the end of the runway? I know very little about turbines but it seems to me they need a lot of runway under normal conditions.
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With ice comes a lot of drag.
 
Wingsofglass said:
I'm not questioning this but how do you land a DC-9 at full thrust and not go off the end of the runway? I know very little about turbines but it seems to me they need a lot of runway under normal conditions.
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Full thrust does not mean full speed. He might have been going a bit faster than normal but ice increases drag immensely. Many pilots have similar stories, although fortunately I'm not one of them.
 
Wingsofglass said:
I'm not questioning this but how do you land a DC-9 at full thrust and not go off the end of the runway? I know very little about turbines but it seems to me they need a lot of runway under normal conditions.
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It takes time to accelerate large masses.
 
Ok I read a few comments and since i'm an instrument student I have had this conversation with my CFII a couple of times. He's a gold seal instructor with over 3,000 hours so I trust his judgement and he said that the worst thing you can do when you encounter icing is to climb. Why? Because 2 things can happen when you climb and there's icing present.

1. If you've already built up some ice on your wing then you're probably already flying at a higher angle of attack due to the extra weight of the ice, the additional drag, and the reduced lift. So climbing could cause you to reach the critical angle of attack and stall the airplane.

2. If you climb you can build ice on the unprotected part of the wing causing air separation and essentially killing any lift you have...once again causing a stall.

Best advice if you encounter ice is to do a 180 and go back where you were since you know there wasn't any ice there, and if you've got plenty of room below you and you're only at couple of degrees from freezing temperatures...go ahead and descend to where it's no longer ice.
 
Pretty sure the weight issue is not a major contributor.
 
My CFI explained to me that when you start to encounter ice, first thing you do is pull out power and start pulling up on the yoke. When you start to hear the buffet you put down flaps and press really hard on left rudder. This will get all the ice off the plane!
 
mcoflyer said:
Ok I read a few comments and since i'm an instrument student I have had this conversation with my CFII a couple of times. He's a gold seal instructor with over 3,000 hours so I trust his judgement and he said that the worst thing you can do when you encounter icing is to climb. Why? Because 2 things can happen when you climb and there's icing present.

1. If you've already built up some ice on your wing then you're probably already flying at a higher angle of attack due to the extra weight of the ice, the additional drag, and the reduced lift. So climbing could cause you to reach the critical angle of attack and stall the airplane.

2. If you climb you can build ice on the unprotected part of the wing causing air separation and essentially killing any lift you have...once again causing a stall.

Best advice if you encounter ice is to do a 180 and go back where you were since you know there wasn't any ice there, and if you've got plenty of room below you and you're only at couple of degrees from freezing temperatures...go ahead and descend to where it's no longer ice.
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Your gold seal instructor has a very limited database. This was last December's flight home . I would have died at 14,000. Though I could not top the Noreaster, I could climb to where it was sufficiently cold that there just isn't enough moisture to create ice. I call your attention to the altitude/time airspeed profile at the bottom. Face on into the Jetstream :(

It's all CASES and the answers are NOT that simple.
 

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mcoflyer said:
Ok I read a few comments and since i'm an instrument student I have had this conversation with my CFII a couple of times. He's a gold seal instructor with over 3,000 hours so I trust his judgement and he said that the worst thing you can do when you encounter icing is to climb. Why? Because 2 things can happen when you climb and there's icing present.

1. If you've already built up some ice on your wing then you're probably already flying at a higher angle of attack due to the extra weight of the ice, the additional drag, and the reduced lift. So climbing could cause you to reach the critical angle of attack and stall the airplane.

2. If you climb you can build ice on the unprotected part of the wing causing air separation and essentially killing any lift you have...once again causing a stall.

Best advice if you encounter ice is to do a 180 and go back where you were since you know there wasn't any ice there, and if you've got plenty of room below you and you're only at couple of degrees from freezing temperatures...go ahead and descend to where it's no longer ice.
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You are in Orlando, I assume your CFI is also a Flordian. I learned in AZ but fortunately a lot of my pilot friends are midwestern freight dogs who go as long as it's legal....ish. Your CFI is wrong. My CFI was wrong when he made the same statement. What if you're in freezing rain? You really want to descend into more freezing rain? Or would you rather poke out on top?? I know what I'd rather do..

What comes up must come down. If you have to come down eventually why not try to go up and see if that works first?
 
mcoflyer said:
Ok I read a few comments and since i'm an instrument student I have had this conversation with my CFII a couple of times. He's a gold seal instructor with over 3,000 hours so I trust his judgement and he said that the worst thing you can do when you encounter icing is to climb. Why? Because 2 things can happen when you climb and there's icing present.

1. If you've already built up some ice on your wing then you're probably already flying at a higher angle of attack due to the extra weight of the ice, the additional drag, and the reduced lift. So climbing could cause you to reach the critical angle of attack and stall the airplane.

2. If you climb you can build ice on the unprotected part of the wing causing air separation and essentially killing any lift you have...once again causing a stall.

Best advice if you encounter ice is to do a 180 and go back where you were since you know there wasn't any ice there, and if you've got plenty of room below you and you're only at couple of degrees from freezing temperatures...go ahead and descend to where it's no longer ice.
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As Bruce said, your instructor has a limited database to work with. 3,000 hours and gold seal doesn't mean much to me. Has he been a freight dog?

When you encounter ice, your goal should be to get out of it. Ideally your goal should be to never encounter in the first place. The ways of getting out of ice are go up, go down, plow ahead, turn around. The proper course of action depends on the scenario, and you need to understand the weather enough to handle.

I'll take last week's escapade as an example. Icing there was avoided almost entirely by picking the right altitudes. Some climbing and some descending required as I pressed forward.

What you should strive for is good enough planning to avoid ice altogether.

marcoseddi said:
My CFI explained to me that when you start to encounter ice, first thing you do is pull out power and start pulling up on the yoke. When you start to hear the buffet you put down flaps and press really hard on left rudder. This will get all the ice off the plane!
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Yeah, that'll get the ice off as a result of the giant fireball on the ground. Don't do that. Ever.
 
Ice? Wha dat be?
How you deal with ice depends as much on what you're flying as where you're flying. Better equipped planes with more power and altitude options certainly have more choices. As has been said, knowing whether to climb or descend are equally important. A 180 could be the best option.
I flew once where there was moderate icing reported both above and below me. Zero at my altitude and IMC with no accumulation.

I will fly in ice if I have known outs. Sometimes, I'll stay at an altitude and on course if I'm not accumulating much and don't see any loss of airspeed or handling if I KNOW I can get out if need be. On a recent trip I did that behind a frontal system. Diverting was possible, but would have been much longer. Tops weren't far above and freeze level wasn't far below, but I would have descended into moderate rain. Just flew through it with little problem.

When I first posted on here, I was flying a Turbo A-36. Since then, I flew a P-baron for about five years, now a King Air C90 for a couple years. Each successive plane had better systems, more options and I was willing to fly in more challenging conditions. Moderate ice by the big guys keeps me away, but trace, light or isolated moderate by smaller planes means I will still consider if I have adequate outs and all de-ice systems are fully operational.

Fly safe!

Best,

Dave
 

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Actually, just the windscreen. Wings etc. were almost clear. Hardly had to cycle the boots. Ice normally first appears on my windscreen wipers. Plane was light; plenty of power if I had to climb. Shortly after this, I was through the system and on my way down to the airport.
The C90 has much better systems than my P-baron did. Bleed air for the boots. Several other systems including windscreen heat which was on for this pic. Bad thing is in conditions like this I need to deploy ice vanes to stop any accumulation in the engine intakes and that takes away a noticeable amount of power; so, an incentive to get out of those conditions--but no need to rush in this instance. Wasn't too far from where I'd start my descent and it was above freezing about 5,000 feet lower.

Best,

Dave
 
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If you look at the weather on the Garmin 200, there were lots of red spots on NEXRAD. On board RADAR showed those were all below; good reason not to descend just then. Waited 'til I was past those to start down and had no problem. Approach was great. Now that I think about it, this was going into Fayetteville (Fayett-Nam) for an Army reunion. I had said Greenville. Front had move thorough earlier and I flew into the back side of it. Tops were a couple thousand above and I could have turned right to circumnavigate.

Guess I should add, wouldn't have flown in this in the TN A-36 and probably not the P-baron but was comfortable in this plane.

Best,

Dave
 
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denverpilot said:
Agreed. That's a cool shot. You know you have a serious traveling machine with FIKI when you have that photo in your collection. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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It is a great picture. Windshield ice is often the most fun to look at, especially when you're not getting it on the wings!
 
bbchien said:
Your gold seal instructor has a very limited database. This was last December's flight home . I would have died at 14,000. Though I could not top the Noreaster, I could climb to where it was sufficiently cold that there just isn't enough moisture to create ice. I call your attention to the altitude/time airspeed profile at the bottom. Face on into the Jetstream :(

It's all CASES and the answers are NOT that simple.
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Bruce,

Why do you mask your tail number in the FlightAware screens? Your plane is trackable, so it's trivial to find the tail #.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It is a great picture. Windshield ice is often the most fun to look at, especially when you're not getting it on the wings!
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If I recall correctly, OAT was -10C. I was IMC but no visible precip; that is, no rain or snow, other than light misting. I think the wind screen iced because it was heated and melted what hit; then, it refroze. I had cycled the boots a couple times but accumulation was trace to very light.

Yes, great time to be in that bird. FL210 was high enough to keep me above all convection but still in clouds. Shortly after getting by all red on NEXRAD and a lot of the yellow, I came down just over 2,000 FPM to go into Lumberton (near Fayetteville). Ceilings were about 6,000 feet there and landing was visual.

Best,

Dave
 
mcoflyer said:
Ok I read a few comments and since i'm an instrument student I have had this conversation with my CFII a couple of times. He's a gold seal instructor with over 3,000 hours so I trust his judgement and he said that the worst thing you can do when you encounter icing is to climb. Why? Because 2 things can happen when you climb and there's icing present.

1. If you've already built up some ice on your wing then you're probably already flying at a higher angle of attack due to the extra weight of the ice, the additional drag, and the reduced lift. So climbing could cause you to reach the critical angle of attack and stall the airplane.

2. If you climb you can build ice on the unprotected part of the wing causing air separation and essentially killing any lift you have...once again causing a stall.
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That can all be true, but if you're in freezing rain, you know there's above-freezing air above you (and more icing below you, maybe all the way to the surface), and if you can reach that warmer air above (which shouldn't be too far or the freezing rain would already be frozen), you can melt off everything you collected. In addition, in stratus clouds, an altitude change of 2000 feet will usually get you out of the icing. If you've done your homework, you'll know of the tops are close above you, and getting there may be better than descending, especially if there's no clear or above-freezing air below you above the MEA.

Best advice if you encounter ice is to do a 180 and go back where you were since you know there wasn't any ice there,
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That's usually good advice with cumulus clouds where the icing layers may be 10,000 feet thick but the clouds are more localized, but not necessarily in stratus clouds where the icing may extend for hundreds of miles in any direction but non-icing conditions are probably within 2000 feet vertically.

and if you've got plenty of room below you and you're only at couple of degrees from freezing temperatures...go ahead and descend to where it's no longer ice.
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That's great unless you're above colder air, so you have to know the full vertical profile of the air to know that descending is the best idea.

All things considered, there is no answer which is always right, and no answer which is always wrong. You have to know the full weather picture including cloud types, bases, tops, and temperatures in all directions in order to come up with a good strategy if you encounter icing.
 
SkyHog said:
This is something that I've wondered for a long time, but just now thought about. Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," but it seems to me that in any case other than a temperature inversion, temperature reduces with altitude. Seems icing would be worse if you climb. Any moisture that has not become ice would freeze (at least in my mind).

What am I missing?
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You should be aware of the weather in your flight area prior to entering; The one and only icing encounter I've had resulted from a temporary low warm front passing over the airport, from the south, with light rain; upon departure I headed north, through warm air and light moisture, into colder temperatures that had been there just 15 minutes prior; this resulted in light windshield and airframe icing at low altitude. I realized I was in an inversion layer and needed to climb to get to warmer temps; the issue I had however was that the low cloud deck wouldn't let me climb for another few miles. Because of the mountainous terrain I was near, I also could not descend to get below the inversion layer.

As soon as the clouds opened (I could see it on the horizon) I was able to climb to my cruise altitude of 5500 and everything melted away. I was fortunate in this situation as icing can occur rapidly and you don't always have a lot of decision making time; had the encounter been any worse and I would have immediately turned back to my departure airport.
 
Did we decide there is no obvious way for the software to indicate a thread has been restarted after >2 years? My idea was to have them in a different color.
 
As for climbing or descending when you hit ice, it's foolish to say one is always right, sometimes defending below is better, sometimes climbing is better.

Just depends on the location, conditions, etc

Also you should always be keeping a eye on your OAT
 
mkosmo said:
Looking at the dates works pretty well.
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Was hoping for something that did not require that level of investigation. Like a different color. Just don't have time to read the dates on every post. Doubt most people do, in fact. Yes, I know it's there. Should be an easier way.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Was hoping for something that did not require that level of investigation. Like a different color. Just don't have time to read the dates on every post. Doubt most people do, in fact. Yes, I know it's there. Should be an easier way.
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I'm not sure if call it investigation. Last post date is clearly displayed in the index as well as the thread creation date.
 
SkyHog said:
This is something that I've wondered for a long time, but just now thought about. Why is it suggested that if one encounters ice, that person should climb to a higher altitude. I can understand the idea of "more altitude, more options," but it seems to me that in any case other than a temperature inversion, temperature reduces with altitude. Seems icing would be worse if you climb. Any moisture that has not become ice would freeze (at least in my mind).

What am I missing?
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A quick review of the comments an I don't see anyone mentioning sublimation.
Normally, ice melts, turns to water, then water boils and evaporates.
But in really cold temperatures, water can skip the melt phase and go directly from solid to gas, defined as sublimation (like dry ice).
Don't believe me? Look at a small puddle of water/ice before going to bed in the winter. In the morning, it will be either gone or smaller (if temps are cold enough). Where did the ice go--it transitioned to gas, it never boiled.
So think about that, and let's see if we get some comments on this thinking.
 
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