Private checkride went horribly wrong!

DPEs are people, too. They read first impressions. Sounds like he figured you weren't prepared and he just needed enough from you to verify. Now you have some incentive to do it right.

Lighten up on the 'papyrus' attitude. If you can't show you know how to do flight planning the old fashioned way, then you don't know it.
 
Ok, I'll take you at face value, everything I said before still stands though. You didn't get taken to the cleaners, you had your ass handed to you and you paid for the lesson in aviation. Learn from the lesson and pay attention to detail. Your iPad forgot to give you a detail you could have found in the POH with a bit of effort. The problem was, you didn't recognize the error, and rather than say "Oh, you're right" you went on to deride tried and true methodology because you were too lazy to do it correctly the way you were expected to. On my PP-XC planning I wasn't going to be at my cruise altitude at my first check point either, it contained the altitude I would expect to be at at that point calculated from the performance data in the POH. You accepted a data set from your iPad without questioning it and used it. A couple of years back a couple of time building students from All ATPs IIRC blindly accepted an altitude from ATC one night heading into San Diego, their lives ended not much later on the side of a mountain. Had they looked at their ancient papyrus scroll to confirm they had been given good data, this would not have happened. Safety requires first and foremost the correct attitude and thought processes, you did not appear to exhibit them to the DE. You complain he was harsh on you, let me clue you in, aviation is a harsh mistress and second chances are not always issued. You still have a second chance. I'd be extremely interested in seeing the video and hearing what questions he asked and your responses.
 
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Problem is Pete you weren't really looking for advice. Nothing the DPE did was wrong. Your comments about him were personal attacks. Can you really cite anything he did that was biased?

As far as kicking someone when they're down? Get over it. I failed my first ride as well. The situation was planning as well (exceeded 30 mins) and he failed me accordingly. I will say the FAA personally interviewed me later because they were investigating his extremely high failure rate. But whatever, pick yourself up and go at it again.

What I find amazing is that your CFI didn't prepare you to do this flight on paper. Perhaps that's something you should take up with him.
 
You were looking for advice.

Here is some advice:

- show up to your next checkride with a current sectional, a plotter, an E6B and and a couple of pencils and know how to use them. Have your ipad ready, after you have shown your paper flight plan, the examiner may allow you to use the EFB once you are up in the air.

- check your ****-poor attitude at the door before you show up for the checkride.

- know your stuff.

- be humble.

- dont try to record your checkride. That is just dumb.

You'll be fine and pass your checkride sooner or later. Nothing wrong with being cocky and rude, you'll fit right in in a particular corner of the pilot population.
 
Andrew, tell me honestly. If you had a recording of yourself FAILING, would you post it? Didn't think so. I would like to humiliate myself for your enjoyment, but perhaps some other time okay?

I thought you might want to humiliate yourself for the education so you pass next time. Humiliation is a cheap price to pay for a lesson in aviation, too many people pay with a lot more.
 
I don't agree, I pay for his time to examine me properly. You even say yourself, I pay for the EXAM SLOT. That slot is 2-4 hours. He should have let me fly.

You weren't ready to fly, and apparently never will be. God, what is wrong with you. I make my students plan every XC on a piece of paper AND I let them use the Garmin 430 in our aircraft. I know the ins and out of both, and I knew them before I became a CFI.

There is a big difference between embracing technology and being dependent on it. I mean, you couldn't even figure out the correct altitude en-route? You had 50% chance even if you didn't know it! And to me that sounds like dependency. What happens if you ipad craps out? (yes it HAS happened to one of my students while I was with him in IFR) Now what? You didn't do any planning, you didn't even care about the AIM approved VFR en-route altitude, and I highly doubt you would have even known you Course Heading(if you even know what that is).

Just because a little piece of (as amazing as it is) technology can help you get from A to B, doesn't mean it always will, and it can and will fail on you... Hell, isn't an airplane a little piece of technology that get you from A to B? And you (should) have practice on how to stay safe when it does, but what about when you iPad craps out? The FAA is looking to know that you know how to safely get to B if it does.

You have got a big head on you kid, and apparently its filled with egotistical hot gas and not a brain that focuses primarily on respect and safety... Which is what the FAA and the FAA's DPE look for.
 
Andrew, tell me honestly. If you had a recording of yourself FAILING, would you post it? Didn't think so. I would like to humiliate myself for your enjoyment, but perhaps some other time okay?

Why NOT post it?

Failing is often a part of life, and most certainly a part of taking FAA Checkrides.

It may help others learn from your mistakes..."passing it forward", if you will.

I didn't have a camera in the airplane when I took my first IA check (back then we still read newspapers and the iPad wasn't even Steve Job's wet dream), but I wish I'd had, so I could show it to my students and say "Here's what can happen when you have a total unexplainable brain fart". You bust. No shame...just a great learning experience that you can share with others.

Mike
 
For the OP (Pete),

What is the back-up to the nav data on your iPad? Are you required to have any back-up?

Others have touched, accurately, on attitude - if you are not humble and respectful, AND you then demonstrate a lack of any of the required skills and knowledge, you should not expect to pass any checkride - the DPE is putting their credentials on the line, it is their responsibility to ensure you can meet the minimum acceptable standard. This protects the uninvolved public, him/herself, the rest of us who make up the pilot population, but also you.

Keep in mind as well, if you feel like a checkride is getting away from you or going downhill, you can always suspend it yourself to prevent actually busting the ride - for any reason including real or perceived personality conflict. You will, of course, lose your fee if you change examiners, but that would be a small price to pay compared to the alternative.

FWIW, within the aviation safety community we are seeing real issues trending with respect to over-reliance on technology, you really do need to know how to do it the old-fashioned way because that is where basic elements like on-course heading, cruise altitudes, etc., are developed.

Best of luck - take what has been offered here as free but high-value instruction from those of us who have been there.

'Gimp
 
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I'm not buying the Pete handle either, more likely little Johnny from the jokes we thought were funny in grade school.

The OP has no reason to expect any refund whatsoever. You pay for the exam slot, not the outcome.

I think he's a troll, but if not, don't be a dumbass next time you show for your check ride.
 
I passed my oral easily. I did have the rare opportunity to 'teach' my DPE something though. When I mentioned something about me making an entry in my airplanes logbook he immediately piped up and said, "Pilots can't make entries in the aircraft logbooks!!!" To which I replied, "Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you...give me a couple minutes to locate the relevant FAR's...". I knew he was wrong but wasn't a dick about it. He admitted he never owned a plane and basically apologized.

If I would have wanted to record my oral for my own use I would have done it discretely - so many gadgets out there that will record tucked away in your bag with no one the wiser. Total dope move asking to record it...and even worse if you actually insisted after he said no. You were done at that point - you just didn't know it.

You don't have to make 100% on the oral to pass it - but in your case he turned the heat up and made sure that wasn't going to happen. Honestly, he knew in the first 2 minutes if you were going to pass or not. My Chief CFI used to be a DPE. She said she always knew within the first few minutes how it was going to end.

Live and learn. In your case...a lot more learnin....
 
Welcome,are you sure you where ready for the test,it's always easy to say the dpe didn't like me from the start,if you where truly ready he couldn't have found a weakness to fail you.have you taken any responsibility for the failure.The harder the test the better the pilot within reason.
 
proably not the best idea with that statement. DPE's never want to see a cocky pilot. they want to see a CONFIDENT pilot. there is a big difference
 
Wow, where am I supposed to start with this one? You sound like a student I once had-the one and only student I told to go take a hike. Do us all and yourself a favor and find a new hobby before someone gives you a license to go be an idiot and kill yourself. You sound like one of those know it alls, and guess what? Those types make the absolute worst pilots. You sound like you're resistant to learning, which is a very, very dangerous trait to have in this business. I may sound harsh, and I am. This is a serious business that can kill you.
 
Pete,
You need to look at this as a lesson. You made a lot of mistakes... Some you have acknowledged and some that are not so apparent to you but plainly obvious to the group here. What you should be thinking is "hey, they may be right". I'm sure you've picked up on the theme that there's a concern with your attitude and your failure to recognize the importance of knowing how to flight plan a cross country. Take this info and use it. Find out why there's such a consensus on these issues. If you don't understand... Ask people. This whole thread would have a completely different tone had you came here asking questions about the things you failed on and projecting an attitude of humility. Aviation is a privilege and an enormous responsibility.... You need to respect that.
 
Pete,
You need to look at this as a lesson. You made a lot of mistakes... Some you have acknowledged and some that are not so apparent to you but plainly obvious to the group here. What you should be thinking is "hey, they may be right". I'm sure you've picked up on the theme that there's a concern with your attitude and your failure to recognize the importance of knowing how to flight plan a cross country. Take this info and use it. Find out why there's such a consensus on these issues. If you don't understand... Ask people. This whole thread would have a completely different tone had you came here asking questions about the things you failed on and projecting an attitude of humility. Aviation is a privilege and an enormous responsibility.... You need to respect that.

It's not even so much knowing how to cross country flight plan, rather showing he knows how to pay attention to detail. "The Devil is in the detail" as they say.
 
It's not even so much knowing how to cross country flight plan, rather showing he knows how to pay attention to detail. "The Devil is in the detail" as they say.

It's even more than that. It's about actually exercising your brain for the purpose of learning and understanding what you're doing.

When you plan a flight the "old-fashioned" way using a whiz wheel and the "papyrus" charts that "Pete" hates so much, the brain actually gets a sense of the forces involved in flight because of the visual and spatial aspects of doing it that way. You don't get the same neuro learning benefits by tapping away at a flipping iPad.

I'm no longer sure whether "Pete" is a troll. But if he isn't, then I'm persuaded that he's a snot-nosed, teen-aged punk who doesn't know ****, but thinks he knows everything. His iPad is his peripheral brain: Take it away, and he wouldn't be able to navigate his hand to wipe his own ass.

I'd also wager that Pete believes his only mistake was being "honest" with his old-fart DPE. He doesn't even know enough to realize that anyone who believes that knowing how to plan a XC on "papyrus" is unimportant, doesn't know **** about flying. Nor does he realize his arrogance in believing that he knows more then his DPE about what a pilot needs to understand, nor how stupid one would have to be to entrust his or her life to a consumer-grade electronic gadget...

Never mind. Let's just say that this checkride went perfectly. It kept an arrogant, ignorant, know-nothing twerp on the ground where he belongs.

-Rich
 
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The biggest danger in the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard.

It's even more than that. It's about actually exercising your brain for the purpose of learning and understanding what you're doing.

When you plan a flight the "old-fashioned" way using a whiz wheel and the "papyrus" charts that "Pete" hates so much, the brain actually gets a sense of the forces involved in flight because of the visual and spatial aspects of doing it that way. You don't get the same neuro learning benefits by tapping away at a flipping iPad.

I'm no longer sure whether "Pete" is a troll. But if he isn't, then I'm persuaded that he's a snot-nosed, teen-aged punk who doesn't know ****, but thinks he knows everything. His iPad is his peripheral brain: Take it away, and he wouldn't be able to navigate his hand to wipe his own ass.

I'd also wager that Pete believes his only mistake was being "honest" with his old-fart DPE. He doesn't even know enough to realize that anyone who believes that knowing how to plan a XC on "papyrus" is unimportant, doesn't know **** about flying. Nor does he realize his arrogance in believing that he knows more then his DPE about what a pilot needs to understand, nor how stupid one would have to be to entrust his or her life to an electronic gadget...

Never mind. Let's just say that this checkride went perfectly. It kept an arrogant, ignorant, know-nothing twerp on the ground where he belongs.

-Rich
 
okay, I hear what you're saying, but I was right and he was wrong. Nobody flies the BS way he was pushing. Do any of you do that paper crap and haul out 100 square feet of paper in the cockpit? And you call ME dangerous and unsafe? While you're folding and unfolding that junk?

My lesson from this is to bite my tongue and do that BS knowing inside I am right and he is wrong, but he is the one with the power to pass or fail me. Okay got it.
 
I don't agree, I pay for his time to examine me properly. You even say yourself, I pay for the EXAM SLOT. That slot is 2-4 hours. He should have let me fly.

No... he has no obligation to do so. If you cant satisfactorily pass the oral, there is no reason to go on to the practical.

You got your exam... You bombed it.

Flying is an ongoing learning endeavor. Things change every year in the regulatory and AIM environment. I would suggest a different attitude and approach when you are ready to try again.

When you go for a drivers license if you fail the knowledge test you never get to the driving test. Same concept. Even if you have a reservation for that time slot.
 
I got it, loud and clear. Adios, doofus. *Click*

okay, I hear what you're saying, but I was right and he was wrong. Nobody flies the BS way he was pushing. Do any of you do that paper crap and haul out 100 square feet of paper in the cockpit? And you call ME dangerous and unsafe? While you're folding and unfolding that junk?

My lesson from this is to bite my tongue and do that BS knowing inside I am right and he is wrong, but he is the one with the power to pass or fail me. Okay got it.
 
okay, I hear what you're saying, but I was right and he was wrong. Nobody flies the BS way he was pushing. Do any of you do that paper crap and haul out 100 square feet of paper in the cockpit? And you call ME dangerous and unsafe? While you're folding and unfolding that junk?

My lesson from this is to bite my tongue and do that BS knowing inside I am right and he is wrong, but he is the one with the power to pass or fail me. Okay got it.

Your likelihood of surviving flying is considerably lower than the average pilot, if you fly with with your wife, take the kids so they aren't orphans.
 
It's even more than that. It's about actually exercising your brain for the purpose of learning and understanding what you're doing.

When you plan a flight the "old-fashioned" way using a whiz wheel and the "papyrus" charts that "Pete" hates so much, the brain actually gets a sense of the forces involved in flight because of the visual and spatial aspects of doing it that way. You don't get the same neuro learning benefits by tapping away at a flipping iPad.

I'm no longer sure whether "Pete" is a troll. But if he isn't, then I'm persuaded that he's a snot-nosed, teen-aged punk who doesn't know ****, but thinks he knows everything. His iPad is his peripheral brain: Take it away, and he wouldn't be able to navigate his hand to wipe his own ass.

I'd also wager that Pete believes his only mistake was being "honest" with his old-fart DPE. He doesn't even know enough to realize that anyone who believes that knowing how to plan a XC on "papyrus" is unimportant, doesn't know **** about flying. Nor does he realize his arrogance in believing that he knows more then his DPE about what a pilot needs to understand, nor how stupid one would have to be to entrust his or her life to an electronic gadget...

Never mind. Let's just say that this checkride went perfectly. It kept an arrogant, ignorant, know-nothing twerp on the ground where he belongs.

-Rich


For someone who looks like you do, you have a lot of nerve to criticize me.
 
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/1999/September/199909_Features_Hazardous_Attitudes.html

The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) literature defines five hazardous attitudes that can undermine a pilot's aeronautical decision making. They are antiauthority, impulsivity, invulnerability, macho, and resignation. While these terms all have negative connotations, each really represents a trait or characteristic embodied in the psyche of every human mind. The key to maintaining a safe attitude is understanding the factors that influence each of these traits and recognizing situations when these traits may become prevalent enough to compromise our decision-making ability.

The Decision-Making Process

In this world of high-speed computing, information access, and electronic communications, perhaps the most mysterious scientific marvel is the human mind. While it's virtually impossible to understand all the variables affecting the workings of the mind, there are models that help us to understand the process of making decisions.

The decision-making process in-volves awareness of our situation. We use judgment to evaluate various risk factors, then choose a course of action to produce a desired result. One representation of this process is called the DECIDE model. In this model, we first detect a change or deviation from our planned action. We then estimate the correction required. We choose a desirable outcome, initiate change by doing something, and evaluate the effect of this action on correcting the deviation.

Throughout this process, a pilot is called upon to evaluate five important elements: himself, the aircraft, the environment, the type of operation or flight (sightseeing, training, charter, etc.), and the situation of the other four elements.

Under normal circumstances, our decision-making process operates effectively. But when stressors are present, the decision-making process can become strained or fail altogether as the pilot fails to properly evaluate any of the five flight elements.

Stressors can be broadly categorized as physical, physiological, and psychological. Physical stressors relate to our environment and include such factors as cockpit temperature, noise, vibration and turbulence, hypoxia, and carbon monoxide. Any of these stressors can alter our perceptions to the point that we are no longer able to make realistic evaluations.

Physiological stressors are those that affect the functioning of our bodies and minds. They include such common factors as fatigue and proper nutrition. A good checklist for these items is the I'M SAFE checklist. (See sidebar.)

The third category is psychological stressors, and these include myriad factors such as peer pressure, self-image, get-home-itis and the hurry-up syndrome. (See AOPA Flight Training, June 1999). Such stressors can severely alter our perception of the five elements of flight decision making.

When stressors mount, the attitudes that we normally keep in check may begin to adversely influence our decision-making ability. Our judgment becomes compromised, and we begin to slide down a slippery slope toward disaster. What's important is that we recognize the traits within us, understand how these traits can develop into hazardous attitudes, and develop mechanisms to readjust our thought processes as we enter the zone of hazardous attitudes and dangerous decision making.

Antiauthority

While most of us don't like to admit it, at times we all act as if the rules don't apply to us. If you've ever found yourself cruising down the highway above the posted speed limit, hurrying to make it through a yellow traffic light, or rolling past a stop sign, then you know what I'm talking about. Sometimes it seems that the rules just don't apply in the particular circumstances, that they aren't that important, or that we can get away with disregarding them.

When we find ourselves breaking the rules like this, we usually have ways to rationalize our behavior. "There was no traffic, and I was in a hurry...nobody was coming...conditions were perfect...you know these roads were really designed for traveling at 70 miles an hour...." Occasionally, such lapses in judgment result in an accident, but even then we are likely to find extenuating circumstances that relieve us of responsibility, such as, "That guy just came out of nowhere," or, "There was a patch of ice on the road," or, "He wasn't using his turn signals."

The same thing can happen in an airplane. To save a few seconds of time, pilots sometimes abbreviate the traffic pattern or use non-standard entries, skip checklists, or fly closer to the clouds and in poorer weather conditions than legally allowed. They rationalize these deviations with similar arguments, including, "There was nobody else in the pattern," or, "I know the checklist by heart," or, "I've done this hundreds of times."

Psychological stressors are probably the most common cause of allowing antiauthority traits to run amuck. When we feel a strong need to get somewhere, we can feel justified in bending the rules. When our antiauthority attitude overwhelms our good judgment, we're squarely in the danger zone.

Impulsivity

Throughout our training, the need to react quickly-to take prompt action in response to a changing situation-is emphasized. When we hear the stall warning, we lower the nose, apply power, and level the wings. On landing, we make rapid corrections to compensate for the effects of gusty winds. When an engine fails or a fire breaks out, we respond immediately with carefully programmed actions.

A person with a hazardous impulsivity attitude may feel the need to do something-anything-quickly. But there are times when reacting too quickly can get us into trouble. Rush through a checklist, and you might miss an item. Hurry to feather a failed engine in a light twin, and you might inadvertently feather the wrong one. There are very few times when lightning-quick responses are essential to safety and survival. In most situations, including many emergencies, it's better to take time to sort things out before committing to a course of action.

Invulnerability

I've never been more shocked than the day I broke my leg skiing. I was 12 years old and way over my head on an icy slope. I lost control and slammed into an innocent bystander. My leg snapped like a frozen twig. I was dumb-founded. It was simply impossible that such a thing could happen to me. Accidents like this were only supposed to happen to other people.

Perhaps our built-in sense of invulnerability is a survival mechanism that allows us to cope with the prospect of injury or death. If we truly believed that we would be injured or killed each time we climbed into the cockpit of an airplane, we'd never turn the starter. Of course we don't think we're going to crash. We tend to believe that accidents happen to other pilots; besides, virtually all the factors that affect safety are under our direct control. We know that as long as we make good decisions, we should never have an accident.

However, this feeling of invulnerability should always be tempered by an equally strong sense of caution. Otherwise, this important survival mechanism becomes a serious safety liability. We may fail to stop and consider the very real risks that are involved in the actions we take.

Macho

Pilots must have a high degree of confidence in their ability to operate an airplane. Aviation is full of challenges: flight planning, decision making, computing, and navigating. Our training is designed to foster our self-image as competent, capable pilots. As aviation pioneer Beryl Markham wrote, "Success breeds confidence...." Each time we succeed in our flying, we have more confidence that we can do it again.

Sometimes our confidence outstrips our ability to safely fly the airplane. Especially when we have a strong desire to accomplish a goal, we can fool ourselves into believing that we can do something that is actually stretching the limits of our abilities.

At the extreme end of the spectrum, people with a hazardous macho attitude will feel a need to continually prove that they are better pilots than others and will take foolish chances to demonstrate their superior ability. Individuals who normally keep their macho attitude in check can be tripped up when certain psychological factors color their perception. Stresses that lead to the hurry-up syndrome or get-home-itis can cause pilots to overestimate their abilities.

Physiological stressors can also in-fluence our macho attitude. We all know that alcohol and drugs affect our decision-making abilities, but even the air we breathe can affect our perceptions. Flying high without supplemental oxygen can lead to hypoxia, which can induce feelings of elation, well-being, or belligerence. In this state, a pilot may feel secure and justified in taking unnecessary risks.

Resignation

Everyone has a limit, and at some point, each of us will recognize that we have reached it and resign ourselves to the consequences. We say, "There's nothing more I can do," or "I can't do that." This resignation becomes hazardous when a pilot gives up when faced with difficult situations. Those with a hazardous resignation attitude believe that they have little control over their own destiny-that fate or bad luck is the cause of their misfortune.

Our perception of our limits can change from year to year or even minute to minute as our environment changes and physiological, psychological, and physical factors come into play.

Physical and physiological stressors probably have the greatest influence on our perceived limits. When we're tired or feeling sick, we may become overwhelmed. I recall how, on a solo cross-country training flight, my abilities were impaired by a bout of airsickness. I had one goal-to get the aircraft on the ground and get out of it. I neglected my checklist, flew the pattern the wrong way, and landed on the wrong runway. An hour later, after the symptoms subsided, I realized how severely my piloting abilities had been compromised.
 
okay, I hear what you're saying, but I was right and he was wrong. Nobody flies the BS way he was pushing. Do any of you do that paper crap and haul out 100 square feet of paper in the cockpit?

Mh, yes I do fly that 'BS way'. The next hour of flight usually fits onto a chart folded up into 1/8th. No need for '100 square feet' at a time.
My paper charts are usually not current as I have the current ones on the ipad.
Said ipad has died on my twice in the least convenient phases of flight. Once while trying to enter the Hudson exclusion, the other time while maneuvering between the FRZ and the class D airspace for two military fields.
 
Dude. He called you sweetie.

Lol, not dude...
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
okay, I hear what you're saying, but I was right and he was wrong. Nobody flies the BS way he was pushing. Do any of you do that paper crap and haul out 100 square feet of paper in the cockpit? And you call ME dangerous and unsafe? While you're folding and unfolding that junk?

My lesson from this is to bite my tongue and do that BS knowing inside I am right and he is wrong, but he is the one with the power to pass or fail me. Okay got it.

I flew with paper charts as a private pilot. And I have expired charts (IFR and VFR) in the airplane just in case. As a student pilot and a new private pilot and all through my instrument training I flew with paper and paper only. I got the iPad Mini the day I passed (first try, but I did almost bust it) my instrument practical. I've put in my time using paper, and my students will do the same.

I didn't make it to CFI level by being a pompous, arrogant, know-it-all either. I admitted mistakes and deficiencies on checkrides (4 of them) learned stuff on checkrides and taught stuff on checkrides. Being a pilot isn't all about having all the right answers.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl:


I flew with paper charts as a private pilot. And I have expired charts (IFR and VFR) in the airplane just in case. As a student pilot and a new private pilot and all through my instrument training I flew with paper and paper only. I got the iPad Mini the day I passed (first try, but I did almost bust it) my instrument practical. I've put in my time using paper, and my students will do the same.

I didn't make it to CFI level by being a pompous, arrogant, know-it-all either. I admitted mistakes and deficiencies on checkrides (4 of them) learned stuff on checkrides and taught stuff on checkrides. Being a pilot isn't all about having all the right answers.

Okay, honey, thank you.
 
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