Grumman Tiger Overview

Nor will they necessarily approve the use of serial-number specific STC for another identical plane even with written permission from the holder of the original cert. BTDT.

The FAA will not grant field approval based on an STC which is not in the public domain. That's policy from the top designed to protect the party who paid for all the work to get the STC -- sort of like patent protection. If the STC holder disappears and the STC goes into the public domain, that ends, but not as long as the STC holder is around.
 
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The wing walk on this one was awful for me. Only wide as one foot and it kinda had roll to it + the dihedral angle. I was not impressed. I'm glad it's gone. It was also very hard for me to push/pull and manage tow bar. It didn't seem like the wheels tracked well.
I've never, ever seen anyone have a problem pulling a Grumman. Pushing, on the other hand, is an art, but I've seen 110-lb girls push one backwards through a twisty course without a towbar. As for the walkway, if it was only as "wide as one foot", somebody did something to it, because when it left the factory, the walkway was about three times that wide (or your shoes have a width of more E's than I can type). All I can think is that you have unusual physical characteristics which aren't compatible with the plane.
 
Nor will they necessarily approve the use of serial-number specific STC for another identical plane even with written permission from the holder of the original cert. BTDT.
Right -- only the "multiple use" STC's get easy approval.

BTW, Hyperdyne still holds the multiple use STC for the 200HP conversion, and I think they will sell you one. However, it's not easy to put together, and somewhat expensive to accomplish, which is why only a couple have been done. But I have flown the converted Cheetah owned by Hyperdyne's owner, and it's very nice.
 
BTW, Hyperdyne still holds the multiple use STC for the 200HP conversion, and I think they will sell you one. However, it's not easy to put together, and somewhat expensive to accomplish, which is why only a couple have been done. But I have flown the converted Cheetah owned by Hyperdyne's owner, and it's very nice.
What's cruise TAS on that?
 
The FAA will not grant field approval based on an STC which is not in the public domain. That's policy from the top designed to protect the party who paid for all the work to get the STC -- sort of like patent protection. If the STC holder disappears and the STC goes into the public domain, that ends, but not as long as the STC holder is around.

You are not basing the field approval on the STC.

It is called intellectual property and can be by passed by law, if it is over a certain age, the auto industry does it all the time, you can make 1 copy for your self.

And if you improve the design you can get a 1 time STC for your aircraft.

There are more than one way to skin this cat, its simply a matter of what you want to do and how you write it up.
 
The comments on the 2-seat conversion jobs with an O-320 stuffed into an engine compartment designed for an O-235 have some validity -- there's not much room left in the engine compartment to work, and it is a bit nose-heavier, although moving the battery back behind the cabin helps that a lot. Either way, I can still teach you how to make good landings in that airplane.

The wing walk is a bit narrow compared to a PA28, but in 3000 hours in them, I've not had a problem.

The crashworthiness of the honeycomb sandwich box structure is legendary in the safety world. If you doubt that, go punch the side of the cabin on one, then do the same to a traditional aluminum skin-and-bulkhead plane (if your knuckles weren't busted hitting the Grumman and if you can find someone to let you punch their Cessna/Piper/Beech).

Let us see you remove and replace that skin, as you can on a Cessna or Piper.
 
What's cruise TAS on that?
During my first runs, I was turning about 75-80% power at around 3000 MSL. I was seeing speed in the low to mid 140's KTAS at that power. Best full throttle low altitude run was 153 KTAS (145 KIAS, 1500 MSL, +31C). Nice smooth engine. During our flight to Pittsburgh, we were only turning about 70% power -- FT and 2500 RPM at 7500 feet and +21C, and were getting about 141 KTAS. For comparison, full throttle at SL in a stock Tiger is about 143 KTAS, and cruise at 70% power at 7500 feet is about 134 KTAS.
 
You are not basing the field approval on the STC.
Then you'll have to do all the flight testing and data collection over yourself, because you cannot use the STC holder's proprietary data. That's about 6 months and $30K of testing based on the experience of the late Fred Kokoska to get the 200HP "Hyper" and 260HP "Sabertooth" conversion STC's for the AA-5A/B's.
 
As for the walkway, if it was only as "wide as one foot", somebody did something to it,
No Ron it's stock. The little trail that goes from the trailing edge up to the slightly larger square by the cabin is a joke. You cannot get two adult feet side-by-side on about 85% of the wing walk. The aft portion is also about 15% applied to the portion that is blended into the fuselage so its far from flat.

It was difficult for me to use and my regular passenger (not disabled just older) didn't like it either. Very thin wing skins right there ready to catch a b$d day.


 
Let us see you remove and replace that skin, as you can on a Cessna or Piper.
Why would I want to? It sure doesn't damage as often or as easily, although if it does, there's an approved repair procedure. You just don't hardly ever see it needed the way you're always patching regular skins.
 
You're right -- less skill, in fact, since the airplane isn't going to pull hard on rotation or when the nosewheel drops on landing.

Why will an airplane "pull hard" on rotation or landing if you are doing it correctly?
 
As for the walkway, if it was only as "wide as one foot", somebody did something to it,
No Ron it's stock. The little trail that goes from the trailing edge up to the slightly larger square by the cabin is a joke. You cannot get two adult feet side-by-side on about 85% of the wing walk.
I have no trouble doing that with my 9-1/2 D's, and I'm not sure why you'd want two adult feet side by side anyway. As I said, this all sounds like a personal problem, because I've never heard anyone else make the same complaint.
 
Why would I want to? It sure doesn't damage as often or as easily, although if it does, there's an approved repair procedure. You just don't hardly ever see it needed the way you're always patching regular skins.


Typically just route out the damage with a router (only the damaged side if one side of the sandwich isn't damaged, lay a new honeycome core in with adhesive and a piece new skin to cover it. It's really neat stuff. Just not all that many people farmiliar with it.
 
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I have no trouble doing that with my 9-1/2 D's, and I'm not sure why you'd want two adult feet side by side anyway. As I said, this all sounds like a personal problem, because I've never heard anyone else make the same complaint.

Cause when I'm crawling off the wing, its a big step down, and to get the right footing it's a PIA.
 
Right -- only the "multiple use" STC's get easy approval.

BTW, Hyperdyne still holds the multiple use STC for the 200HP conversion, and I think they will sell you one. However, it's not easy to put together, and somewhat expensive to accomplish, which is why only a couple have been done. But I have flown the converted Cheetah owned by Hyperdyne's owner, and it's very nice.

If it is still active and supported gaining approval of a 1 time is a moot point.

But you can still reverse engineer it and call it your own when you improve the design or use a different engine model.
 
Why will an airplane "pull hard" on rotation or landing if you are doing it correctly?
Because the steerable nosewheel is doing most of the work keeping you straight, and when the nosewheel lifts off, all the yaw load must be picked up by the rudder. The result is the nose pulls left as you rotate unless you simultaneously make the exact correction with the rudder pedals to increase rudder deflection enough to take up the nosewheel's load. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that quick yaw to the left when someone rotates in such a plane. OTOH, on the Grummans, by rotation speed the entire yaw load is already being carried by the rudder, so there's no change in the balancing yaw force at rotation, and the nose doesn't pull left.

On landing, with a steerable nosewheel, the nosewheel is cocked by the application of rudder to keep the nose straight down the runway when making crosswind landings, and when you lower it, it creates a yaw in that direction unless you exactly center it as it touches down (tricky, that). Again, with the Grumman, you are already holding the exact rudder angle to balance the forces and the nosewheel aligns itself with the direction of travel upon being lowered so there is no jerk on nosewheel touchdown.
 
Cause when I'm crawling off the wing, its a big step down, and to get the right footing it's a PIA.
The lack of a step between wing and ground on the 2-seates is an issue for some people. The ones I know with this problem carry a small step on a rope which then can use to mount/dismount. This is not a problem for the 4-seaters as they have a step (unless the owner removed it to get an extra half-knot for racing).
 
On landing, with a steerable nosewheel, the nosewheel is cocked by the application of rudderQUOTE]


Not really on Cessnas. The nose gears are locked centered until there is enough compression of the strut to unlock it.
 
But you can still reverse engineer it and call it your own when you improve the design or use a different engine model.
Sure -- but it's gonna cost you $30K and 6 months to do all the testing to get your own STC/field approval, and the Hyperdyne STC only costs like one-tenth of that.
 
Nor will they necessarily approve the use of serial-number specific STC for another identical plane even with written permission from the holder of the original cert. BTDT.

Wayne those are called 1 time STC, and the data used to gain the approval of the first one can be used to gain approval on a different aircraft.

because the data used usually comes from a DER and that can be bought again.
 
Doesn't help you on takeoff, and it still happens on landing -- seen it many times.


What I see on landings in Cessnas is the stut wont compress so they have NO nose nose wheel steering till they (A) stomp on the brakes or (B] Push hard on the elevator, or both.
 
Wayne those are called 1 time STC, and the data used to gain the approval of the first one can be used to gain approval on a different aircraft.

because the data used usually comes from a DER and that can be bought again.
The flight test data come from the flight testing, not the DER, who provides the design data and review. But even if the DER participates in and signs the test reports, the DER does not own the data -- the person who hired the DER does. For the DER to sell data s/he doesn't own would be a serious contractual breach and infringement on the proprietary data bought by the holder.

So, if the original holder bought the data from the DER, the data then belong to the holder who bought them, not the DER, and the DER cannot sell what s/he no longer owns.
 
What I see on landings in Cessnas is the stut wont compress so they have NO nose nose wheel steering till they (A) stomp on the brakes or (B] Push hard on the elevator, or both.
That is significantly different from my experience of maybe 1000 hours of dual given in Cessnas, but YMMV.
 
Doesn't help you on takeoff, and it still happens on landing -- seen it many times.


I've never eally noticed this on takeoff. There is enough slack in the nose steering bungee to allow a lot of rudder control without a whole lot of NWS input.
 
I've never eally noticed this on takeoff. There is enough slack in the nose steering bungee to allow a lot of rudder control without a whole lot of NWS input.
Again, I see it all the time while giving training, but again, YMMV.
 
Why will an airplane "pull hard" on rotation or landing if you are doing it correctly?

I don't think "hard" is the correct term, rather "noticable" might be more appropriate.
 
Because the steerable nosewheel is doing most of the work keeping you straight, and when the nosewheel lifts off, all the yaw load must be picked up by the rudder. The result is the nose pulls left as you rotate unless you simultaneously make the exact correction with the rudder pedals to increase rudder deflection enough to take up the nosewheel's load. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that quick yaw to the left when someone rotates in such a plane. OTOH, on the Grummans, by rotation speed the entire yaw load is already being carried by the rudder, so there's no change in the balancing yaw force at rotation, and the nose doesn't pull left.

On landing, with a steerable nosewheel, the nosewheel is cocked by the application of rudder to keep the nose straight down the runway when making crosswind landings, and when you lower it, it creates a yaw in that direction unless you exactly center it as it touches down (tricky, that). Again, with the Grumman, you are already holding the exact rudder angle to balance the forces and the nosewheel aligns itself with the direction of travel upon being lowered so there is no jerk on nosewheel touchdown.

The question, as asked, still remains unanswered. ;)

If the nose is jerking, you ain't doing it right.

I don't think "hard" is the correct term, rather "noticable" might be more appropriate.

Never had the nose noticeably swing on take off, and on landing you quit stomping the pedals, and it doesn't jerk on touchdown. Upwind wheel, downwind wheel, feet off rudder, nosewheel touchdown, voila. Most instructors don't have their students do that last part, and in turn, are most likely instructing incorrectly.
 
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If the nose is jerking, you ain't doing it right.

Never had the nose noticeably swing on take off,
Happens all the time when I'm jumping in for a flight review or IR training in steerable nosewheel planes. Doesn't happen with free-castering. :dunno:
 
Happens all the time when I'm jumping in for a flight review or IR training in steerable nosewheel planes. Doesn't happen with free-castering. :dunno:

Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it's being done right.
 
The question, as asked, still remains unanswered. ;)

If the nose is jerking, you ain't doing it right.



Never had the nose noticeably swing on take off, and on landing you quit stomping the pedals, and it doesn't jerk on touchdown. Upwind wheel, downwind wheel, feet off rudder, nosewheel touchdown, voila. Most instructors don't have their students do that last part, and in turn, are most likely instructing incorrectly.


Only time my nose "swings" is on a heavy x-wind when I just lift off and transition from x-controlled to crabbed. Certainly isn't a jerk type of movement
 
Time to stop lurking and jump in. I could not resist this thread. When going for my private at the now plowed under Houston Gulf airport 33 years ago, I was told that I could get my ticket faster in a Cessna, but be a better pilot learning in a Grumman. I took the Grumman and have never regretted it. Starting in the AA1B - (a Volkswagen with short stubby wings) and moving up to the Cheetah and Tigers. Learning in a Grumman really paid off when I purchased a Cirrus 3 years ago. Free castering nose wheel and higher approach speeds felt pretty normal. Long story, but totaled one in an off airport engine out without a scratch to either of us in the plane. Tough little sucker. I was all set to buy one 3 years ago when my wife convinced me to buy the Cirrus (guess why). I researched a lot on Cardinals, Piper Comanches, Mooney's and even Bonanzas. The Grumman topped the list in bang for the buck.

I am happy with the Cirrus, but would have been happy with the Grumman as well. They seem to have a lot in common with the RV's which I would also be proud to own (particularly the new RV14).
 
One cool trick I learned with the Grumman's. At takeoff cock the plane just a bit to the right. When applying power the nose will come straight without ever touching the brakes. Otherwise it might take a tap of the right brakes to keep it going straight before the rudder kicks in.
 
One cool trick I learned with the Grumman's. At takeoff cock the plane just a bit to the right. When applying power the nose will come straight without ever touching the brakes. Otherwise it might take a tap of the right brakes to keep it going straight before the rudder kicks in.
About 5 degrees right does it, or you can do what I do which is hold the brakes, run up to 1800 RPM, check the engine instruments, and then release brakes. The propwash over the rudder will be enough to provide adequate rudder effectiveness to counter the torque/p-factor at brake release. Also gives you a nice check of the engine while you have all the attention available to check the gauges carefully rather than diverting some from maintaining directional control on the roll.
 
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