Cirrus Pilots- Answer me this...

spiderweb said:
If you burn Cirrus pads, they supposed can fail dramatically (failure or fire). I haven't experienced that because I taxi slowly--the same way I taxi any aircraft.

Taxiing is effected by differential braking, and quick toe taps.
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If it's true that normal taxi behavior can result in brakes overheating with a spectacular failure, then I would think that to be a safety concern that Cirrus would address. I'd worry about normal landings if taxiing was a concern.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If it's true that normal taxi behavior can result in brakes overheating with a spectacular failure, then I would think that to be a safety concern that Cirrus would address. I'd worry about normal landings if taxiing was a concern.
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Riding the brakes results in brake overheats. Normal (proper) taxiing does not.
 
NoHeat said:
I don't. The POH checklist says to reduce to 1000 RPM after starting.



The POH checklist says to turn them on before starting the engine, and it doesn't indicate that they should be turned off.



I don't. The POH specifies a maximum 1000 RPM for sustained taxi.
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So if the POH says to turn them on before start ( Which is absolutely ridiculous and Cirrus needs their POH re-written by some real pilots, not engineers) do you think it's ok to be sitting on the FBO ramp at night next to another running aircraft while your strobes are on? Even during the day? I don't know about you, but I would defer from that step in the checklist. It's poor airmanship and that guy next to you is going to be ticked off.
 
hkyplr18 said:
So if the POH says to turn them on before start ( Which is absolutely ridiculous and Cirrus needs their POH re-written by some real pilots, not engineers) do you think it's ok to be sitting on the FBO ramp at night next to another running aircraft while your strobes are on? Even during the day? I don't know about you, but I would defer from that step in the checklist. It's poor airmanship and that guy next to you is going to be ticked off.
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Don't forget the recent letter from the Chief Counsel's office (we had a whole thread) that requires ALL anti-collision lights operating whenever the aircraft is in motion unless a specific safety issue can be identified.

The question asked was specifically about strobes on an aircraft dual-equipped with beacon and strobes. Counsel says "light 'em up".

Because FAA staff lawyers with plenty of "review" in their chain of command (this part is sarcasm because someone actually said this here) adequately reviews all letters for the staff lawyer who writes them.

In other words, FAA staff lawyers are clueless about airmanship, so just do the right thing and always say the exact right words if asked, "Turning them on would have created a safety issue for other pilots." And hope the Administrative Law Judge agrees.

;) ;) ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If it's true that normal taxi behavior can result in brakes overheating with a spectacular failure, then I would think that to be a safety concern that Cirrus would address. I'd worry about normal landings if taxiing was a concern.
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I think it is overkill, as you say. You can't land a Cirrus and stop with "toe taps."
 
denverpilot said:
Don't forget the recent letter from the Chief Counsel's office (we had a whole thread) that requires ALL anti-collision lights operating whenever the aircraft is in motion unless a specific safety issue can be identified. ...
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Sounds like they are saying to turn the strobes off in the vicinity of other aircraft, don't need to be a opthamologist to know flashing powerful strobe lights next to someone at night will deteriorate their night vision abilities, thus effecting saftey. Only other time it would be unsafe is in IMC.

I don't run strobes or landing lights until I'm on the runway, also be thoughtful of where you point your taxi lights ;)
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Sounds like they are saying to turn the strobes off in the vicinity of other aircraft, don't need to be a opthamologist to know flashing powerful strobe lights next to someone at night will deteriorate their night vision abilities, thus effecting saftey. Only other time it would be unsafe is in IMC.

I don't run strobes or landing lights until I'm on the runway, also be thoughtful of where you point your taxi lights ;)
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:yeahthat: Blinding other pilots is a safety issue.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If it's true that normal taxi behavior can result in brakes overheating with a spectacular failure, then I would think that to be a safety concern that Cirrus would address. I'd worry about normal landings if taxiing was a concern.
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I read the NTSB reports, and I looked into the ownership of the planes.

It was not "normal" taxi behavior that started the two fires about ten years ago. It was renters who taxied with the brakes applied constantly. The brakes were the same as in other planes, but with less cooling due to the wheel pants. So the design was not tolerant of an inexperienced pilot taxiing the way that you are not supposed to.

Cirrus did address the problem with ADs, and they did so promptly. Exactly as one would expect. There have been no more brake fires that I've heard of.

Normal landings are not a problem for the brakes.
 
spiderweb said:
I think it is overkill, as you say. You can't land a Cirrus and stop with "toe taps."
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You use toe taps to steer while taxiing. For landing, you apply the brakes just as you would in a Cessna, for example.
 
Flying_Nun said:
Taxiing with strobes at dusk is just poor airmanship. I use position lights at dusk until at the hold short line.
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What if the switch for the strobes is tied into the beacon? Do you taxi around with no lights on?
 
rrmkru said:
What if the switch for the strobes is tied into the beacon? Do you taxi around with no lights on?
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If it's at night.. you're telling us the only lights you have are your strobe and beacon, if that's the case the plane ain't legal to fly at night anyways.

Guessing you have position lights? just use them at night in the above scenario, taxi light?

I've seen a few planes wired that way, one was a PA24, guess it cheaper then adding another switch or something, I'd never wire it like that IMO
 
There is a cessna at the FBO that has the beacon tied in with strobes, and position lights are separate. I thought the beacon had to be on at all times, that is why I made that comment.
 
NoHeat said:
You use toe taps to steer while taxiing. For landing, you apply the brakes just as you would in a Cessna, for example.
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You have to, if you don't want an overrun (unless you're landing on a longish runway)!
 
Actually, I like having strobes on from other planes on the ramp - helps me identify them, especially in peripheral vision.

In the case of the 310, the beacon/strobe (same fixture, one at the top of the tail and one under the fuselage) are one switch, and the nav lights are a second switch.

Now I'll sit back and wait for everyone to tell me why I'm an idiot. *sigh*
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Actually, I like having strobes on from other planes on the ramp - helps me identify them, especially in peripheral vision.

In the case of the 310, the beacon/strobe (same fixture, one at the top of the tail and one under the fuselage) are one switch, and the nav lights are a second switch.

Now I'll sit back and wait for everyone to tell me why I'm an idiot. *sigh*
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Welcome to the Pilot Arguments of America forum, lol. You said it though...no matter what you say on here, 10 keyboard captains are ready to jump all over it and tell you how surprised they are that you are still alive.
 
lr60plt said:
Welcome to the Pilot Arguments of America forum, lol. You said it though...no matter what you say on here, 10 keyboard captains are ready to jump all over it and tell you how surprised they are that you are still alive.
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With over 12,000 posts, I figured that out long ago. ;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
With over 12,000 posts, I figured that out long ago. ;)
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There's your problem right there. Overconfidence. You THINK you had it figured out long ago, but we all know.... :D I can show you people with 20,000+ posts who still don't have it all figured out.
 
bartmc said:
There's your problem right there. Overconfidence. You THINK you had it figured out long ago, but we all know.... :D I can show you people with 20,000+ posts who still don't have it all figured out.
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I did not claim to have it all figured it out, I only claimed to have figured out that people would tell me I was an idiot for having a preference differing from "common wisdom."
 
I taxi a wee bit faster on a Diamond than on Cessna or Piper. I just feel that it's easier to steer with castering nosewheel if you are slightly faster. But not 30kt fast lol.
 
Y'all need to hang out at LOM sometime and see the things some Cirrus pilots do there.
 
railroadjack said:
Y'all need to hang out at LOM sometime and see the things some Cirrus pilots do there.
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Tell them to get proper training. Per the POH, taxiing is supposed to be conducted at--surprise, surprise--1,000 RPM.
 
spiderweb said:
I actually think the reason is aerodynamics. But I have no idea how many knots faster it is without the beacon.
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Ding ding.

I want to take the Jelly jar off my mooney because I'm convinced after hefty extrapolation it will give me another knot or two. It is terribly unaerodynamic.
 
DavidWhite said:
Ding ding.

I want to take the Jelly jar off my mooney because I'm convinced after hefty extrapolation it will give me another knot or two. It is terribly unaerodynamic.
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But if it is only a knot or two, maybe it isn't such a big deal--unless you were being sarcastic?
 
Meanee said:
I taxi a wee bit faster on a Diamond than on Cessna or Piper. I just feel that it's easier to steer with castering nosewheel if you are slightly faster. But not 30kt fast lol.
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When I first got my Velocity, I really disliked the differential steering. After a few hours though, I learned to love it. I never taxied any faster in my Velocity than I did in the 172 before it, but often my taxi wasn't as pretty (at least early in my ownership).

My instructor taught me that a inch off the yellow line was off the yellow line and showed a lack of professionalism. When I first started with differential breaking, my path looked like the plane was being piloted by a drunkard failing a field sobriety test. With time, it became completely second nature and I now much prefer differential to direct steering. Gives you a lot more flexibility, but you do have to watch the prop blast when executing a pivot or you can really give the guy/gal behind you an unpleasant blast.

As to brake fires, the legs are a design choice. I'm assuming with a Cirrus, it is standard training not to drag the brakes (as it is standard with Velocity transition training). If some yahoo is dragging brakes the length of a taxiway, is it the planes fault or the pilots (or should I say, drivers) fault. Sloppy is sloppy ... learn your plane and respect its design specifications and limits.
 
iflyforfun said:
As to brake fires, the legs are a design choice. I'm assuming with a Cirrus, it is standard training not to drag the brakes (as it is standard with Velocity transition training). If some yahoo is dragging brakes the length of a taxiway, is it the planes fault or the pilots (or should I say, drivers) fault. Sloppy is sloppy ... learn your plane and respect its design specifications and limits.
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A good summation.
 
LDJones said:
All Cirrus drivers are fast! We had one smoke two brand new sets of tires...right down to the cord. The second set he smoked moments before taking it through a chain link fence off the end of the runway, missing the tower manager in her car by about 10 seconds!

As we say here in Minnesota, Uff-da!
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Oh, OK, since we are making crap up, here we go- I saw a Cirrus driver leave his seat belt hanging out the door and it got caught under the main gear tire, causing the plane to steer sharply to the left right into the gas pumps! The fire ball was enormous just like on TV!

Silly Cirrus pilots. When will you learn?

OK, next poster... GO! It's your turn to bash the Cirrus driver! Weeee!:goofy:
 
Threefingeredjack said:
:yeahthat: Blinding other pilots is a safety issue.
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Just to through a monkey wrench into the thread and try to derail it from the obvious, usual Cirrus bash fest, I add this.

Many will defend the J-3 Cub pilot the right to blast into and out of the pattern without any radio calls to the death. The FARs make no mention of radio requirements and therefore all is well, regardless of the potential mid air, or ground indecent. However, the guy with his strobes on is a safety hazard? Why? Because they hurt your little eye balls?

There are no FARs that say that you can't taxi with your strobes on to my knowledge. Therefore, live and let live. My guess is, no one will crash into this guy. Stop the Cirrus witch hunt.
 
spiderweb said:
But if it is only a knot or two, maybe it isn't such a big deal--unless you were being sarcastic?
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The impact on block times is obviously pretty minimal. I figured on the 310 that increasing our average speed by 10 kts (which we did with the new engines) saved about an hour in a common 16 hour mission. So that is significant, but the 10 minute impact on, say, our trips to Omaha is pretty insignificant.

Still, though, I am becoming a bit of a knot junkie. Partly because the plane finally has the majority of major items done and I like to tinker. Also to keep a 45 year old plane looking and feeling newer. But I also like having fewer areas that can accumulate ice and impact drag there (with a host of other benefits), plus if I can gain a bit more speed that also means better cooling for the engines, and the cooling right now isn't very good. So I've been looking at ways we can improve aerodynamics on the 310.

Silly? Sure, but I'm an engineer. Maybe now that I'm in a world where we look at an improvement of 0.3% as huge my mindset has shifted a bit.
 
iflyforfun said:
My instructor taught me that a inch off the yellow line was off the yellow line and showed a lack of professionalism.
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since the yellow line is often painted over a seam in the pavement, at least at our airport it is, you may consider me unprofessional.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
I don't run strobes or landing lights until I'm on the runway, also be thoughtful of where you point your taxi lights ;)
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I run strobes on in flight, But I run taxi lights only when......get this....taxiing.
I run landing lights anytime I'm in the pattern and also when approaching the pattern. I also run them for ATC traffic callouts that I haven't determined are not a factor.

hkyplr18 said:
So if the POH says to turn them on before start ( Which is absolutely ridiculous and Cirrus needs their POH re-written by some real pilots, not engineers) do you think it's ok to be sitting on the FBO ramp at night next to another running aircraft while your strobes are on? Even during the day? I don't know about you, but I would defer from that step in the checklist. It's poor airmanship and that guy next to you is going to be ticked off.
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It looks cooler sitting on the ramp runup at 1500 wih blnking strobes. It's the holistic approach to selling airplanes. You even get several years' supply of Kool-Aid :D when you buy one.

Flying_Nun said:
Taxiing with strobes at dusk is just poor airmanship. I use position lights at dusk until at the hold short line.
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I admit to using the strobes to check wingtip clearance on a dark ramp in tight confines.
 
wabower said:
Really? How much does a set of pads set you back? How often must they be changed? How do those costs compare to the potential alternatives? Somebody is blowing smoke up somebody's hiney.
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Last I checked about $12 per main. You'll be riding at least one brake non-stop if you taxi < 1000 RPM and there is any quartering surface wind. I taxi at 1000 maybe 1200 tops.

That said, you should be able to maintain the taxi line in a Tiger with minimal braking (usually at the apex of the turn). It's the LONG straight taxi with quartering wind that requires powering up some to get the rudder to be a little useful.
 
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