drive or fly

[woodstock]

Hi all,

thinking out loud.

My parents and I are going to the new house over Labor Day. we've already got our tickets - mine through Dulles.

I'm not too too concerned about someone blowing up a CRJ at this point. I don't however want to show up at Dulles at noon for a 6 PM domestic flight. at that point I may as well leave work at noon and drive to SC and get there at 8-9 PM.

My parents are on NWA however (strike still imminent?) and while their starting point is a tiny tiny airport, with usually about 5 people in line at any point... they are flying through Detroit to board a flight to Savannah. I'm not thinking even that that flight is a risk... but...

does anyone know what kind of BS they may have to put up with, through Detroit airport, to get on the second flight? will they have to go through security again after landing and switching? usually not, but I don't know... starting in PA to drive to SC is doable. if they got stuck in Detriot they would likely rent a car to get home and then bag the trip - which would be upsetting.

not to mention if NWA strikes...

 

[EdFred]

*COUGH* Finish your private and get a plane. *COUGH*

 

[gprellwitz]

*COUGH* Finish your private and get a plane. *COUGH*

What he said (under his breath)!

 

[woodstock]

*COUGH* Finish your private and get a plane. *COUGH*

I'd love to - but not by September.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It can sound extravagent but at some point, chartering a Seneca can start to become attractive in time savings and even money, and a lot more fun.

 

[tonycondon]

yep time to start that 135 charter biz up out of a fairly metro area. could make a killing stealing passengers from the airlines

 

[wsuffa]

If they're on NWA all the way, the plane change at Det-wah will not require going through the checkpoint again.

HOWEVER, several folks I've talked to today say that the security folks are searching bags at the jetway, just to make sure you didn't buy contraband at the airport.

The sense I get is that these rules may be changed a bit over time, but I also think they'll stay in place for weeks, if not months. At least one news writer is suggesting that big, permanent changes are coming that will significantly raise security hassles because the TSA screeners can't identify what's good or bad (he also refers to the TSA screeners as "burger-flippers"....).

I compare this to the elementary school principal that says "the public interest people say that a student in another school threatened another student with a fat-laden sandwich, so we are banning all lunches and searching students twice for contraband".

 

[Everskyward]

HOWEVER, several folks I've talked to today say that the security folks are searching bags at the jetway, just to make sure you didn't buy contraband at the airport.

Contraband like <gasp> LIQUIDS are being sold inside the secure area!

 

[wsuffa]

Contraband like <gasp> LIQUIDS are being sold inside the secure area!

Even funnier, one said that the newsstand refused to sell him a bottle of water. So he got one out of the vending machine across the hall....

Like TSA taking away nail clippers, and then being able to buy one at the newsstand.

 

[NC Pilot]

I just returned from Portland Maine today. Portland is usually about 2 minutes to get through security. Today it was almost 30. A lot of it was newness of the situation and some was learning the new rules. Large airports will be longer, but the longest recommendation I am hearing is to get to the airport 3 hours ahead of time. I'm sure that by Sept. things will be ironed out somewhat.

I went ahead and checked my bag since it had shampoo, mouthwash and toothpaste and didn't feel like diving into my bag to throw it away.

Flying my plane on longer trips is looking more better, although it will cost more to do so.

 

[Len Lanetti]

If your parents are up for it...I'd vote drive.

Another option is a chain link of PoA volunteers to transport your parents from where they are to where you want them to be.

Len

 

[woodstock]

thanks Len, that's a nice idea too but I don't want to put anyone out. I guess we will wait and see for now - I can always can the tickets on August 31 and then we drive. if they drove to my house (6 hours) we could then take a nap, get up at 2 AM and drive another 8 hours to SC.

 

[Ken Ibold]

If they're on NWA all the way, the plane change at Det-wah will not require going through the checkpoint again.

HOWEVER, several folks I've talked to today say that the security folks are searching bags at the jetway, just to make sure you didn't buy contraband at the airport.

It was in Detroit in early 02 that I had the pleasure of submitting to a search right next to the line of people going onto the jetway. They didn't take me aside or anything. The crowd filed past me about 2 feet away. I got the deluxe package: hands down my pants, take off my SOCKS...heck, they even looked through my wallet. Everything short of a body cavity search. I was in a great mood after that, let me tell you.

 

[wsuffa]

It was in Detroit in early 02 that I had the pleasure of submitting to a search right next to the line of people going onto the jetway. They didn't take me aside or anything. The crowd filed past me about 2 feet away. I got the deluxe package: hands down my pants, take off my SOCKS...heck, they even looked through my wallet. Everything short of a body cavity search. I was in a great mood after that, let me tell you.

I went through that 4 times at Atlanta, several times at CVG, and once or twice at other airports. The final straw came for me when I saw one of the rent-a-cops humiliate a woman to tears at Atlanta by holding up her lingere and "feminine products", demanding to know about them and whether they were the right size for her.

I had a little talk with my elected representatives and with the airline management.... and that was when I started putting 200+ hours a year on my plane instead of riding in the cattle car.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I went through that 4 times at Atlanta, several times at CVG, and once or twice at other airports. The final straw came for me when I saw one of the rent-a-cops humiliate a woman to tears at Atlanta by holding up her lingere and "feminine products", demanding to know about them and whether they were the right size for her.

I had a little talk with my elected representatives and with the airline management.... and that was when I started putting 200+ hours a year on my plane instead of riding in the cattle car.

Yeah, the ol' "We gotta do something, even if it's wrong" mentality.

 

[woodstock]

they pulled me aside in Paris on the way home from Italy this year - same thing. yeah, I'm a threat.

 

[wsuffa]

they pulled me aside in Paris on the way home from Italy this year - same thing. yeah, I'm a threat.

I got pulled aside - in the jetway - at CDG in '04. Same deal at Nice in '04.

White, well dressed, American male. Must be a threat.

 

[gprellwitz]

I got pulled aside - in the jetway - at CDG in '04. Same deal at Nice in '04.

White, well dressed, American male. Must be a threat.

No, you were just obviously a pilot! Plus, at least you know they aren't doing racial stereotyping!

 

[wsuffa]

No, you were just obviously a pilot! Plus, at least you know they aren't doing racial stereotyping!

That's why they let the scruffy, middle-eastern guys waltz on the plane unchecked... (and, of course, the french guys)

 

[Shipoke]

It was in Detroit in early 02 that I had the pleasure of submitting to a search right next to the line of people going onto the jetway. They didn't take me aside or anything. The crowd filed past me about 2 feet away. I got the deluxe package: hands down my pants, take off my SOCKS...heck, they even looked through my wallet. Everything short of a body cavity search. I was in a great mood after that, let me tell you.

THIS IS WHY I DONT FLY Commercial
Dave G.
P.S. If i can't fly my plane ,or drive i dont go.

 

[bbchien]

It can sound extravagent but at some point, chartering a Seneca can start to become attractive in time savings and even money, and a lot more fun.

I think this has something to do with why I own a Seneca.....

 

[astanley]

I travel for work (as many of you know), it varies between 10-15 weeks a year and 30+. Really depends on demands (as in, I' haven't been on the road since early June, but I'll be out two weeks at the end of this month and over a month in Sept/Oct).

Our company has a STRICT no Part 91/135 policy. 121 ONLY. Given the amount of regional travel I do, it would be far far far cheaper to buy a block of flight time from a 135 operator and be done with it. Right now, for any overnight trip, I am now looking at an extra 3 hours added on to my travel - 2 at the departure airport, 1 at the arrival (waiting for checked baggage, navigating through the post-flight influx of people, etc).

The Eclipse can't get here soon enough - but the TSA will find a way to regulate that.

I know the head of risk management (who sets these policies), and I'm on the verge of sending him an email . . .

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[woodstock]

That's why they let the scruffy, middle-eastern guys waltz on the plane unchecked... (and, of course, the french guys)

how do you know they weren't one and the same?

they are profiling too. ha

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I travel for work (as many of you know), it varies between 10-15 weeks a year and 30+. Really depends on demands (as in, I' haven't been on the road since early June, but I'll be out two weeks at the end of this month and over a month in Sept/Oct).

Our company has a STRICT no Part 91/135 policy. 121 ONLY. Given the amount of regional travel I do, it would be far far far cheaper to buy a block of flight time from a 135 operator and be done with it. Right now, for any overnight trip, I am now looking at an extra 3 hours added on to my travel - 2 at the departure airport, 1 at the arrival (waiting for checked baggage, navigating through the post-flight influx of people, etc).

The Eclipse can't get here soon enough - but the TSA will find a way to regulate that.

I know the head of risk management (who sets these policies), and I'm on the verge of sending him an email . . .

Cheers,

-Andrew

What's their rationale?
Sounds like a dumass knee jerk policy, unless all the extra employee hours of time spent are somehow offset by some other significant expense.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

That's why they let the scruffy, middle-eastern guys waltz on the plane unchecked... (and, of course, the french guys)

Those days are numbered, EVERYBODY'S gonna be getting searched, ALL the time.

 

[astanley]

What's their rationale?
Sounds like a dumass knee jerk policy, unless all the extra employee hours of time spent are somehow offset by some other significant expense.

Costly, exposes corporation to undue litigation risk, no way to control utilization of outside services.

It's a load of #@$#@. Our company CEO uses public air transportation; our company founder thought corporate aviation was excessive.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[fgcason]

It can sound extravagent but at some point, chartering a Seneca can start to become attractive in time savings and even money, and a lot more fun.

At what point does the airline hassle factor become so convoluted and annoying that it's faster and less stress to make the trip in, say, a covered wagon?

I mean the last 3 people that visited me and several others I know that have made similar trips, I could beat door to door time for ≈1000 mile trips in a ratty CE150. I know, I ran the numbers for the same trip. If it was a race, I would win with plenty of time to spare.

 

[wsuffa]

I know the head of risk management (who sets these policies), and I'm on the verge of sending him an email . . .

Cheers,

-Andrew

In person is a lot better. Really. Go armed with facts, figures, foils - er - powerpoint.

 

[astanley]

In person is a lot better. Really. Go armed with facts, figures, foils - er - powerpoint.

Yeah, I have to go to Dallas in a few weeks. I'm just upset because I just shelled out $9k for the honor of going to India in a few weeks.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[wsuffa]

Yeah, I have to go to Dallas in a few weeks. I'm just upset because I just shelled out $9k for the honor of going to India in a few weeks.

Cheers,

-Andrew

FWIW, my former employer and I worked out a deal, and they loved the cost savings when I flew myself. The CEO/CFO flew in the back of the Citation or Gulfstream, but they wanted everyone else to fly commercially (and asked me one time why commercial was so expensive.... while we were sitting ion the runway n the Citation 10....)

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

At what point does the airline hassle factor become so convoluted and annoying that it's faster and less stress to make the trip in, say, a covered wagon?

I mean the last 3 people that visited me and several others I know that have made similar trips, I could beat door to door time for ≈1000 mile trips in a ratty CE150. I know, I ran the numbers for the same trip. If it was a race, I would win with plenty of time to spare.

Aways determined on a case by case basis but I'd say in general the point's gonna be sooner for pilots, and even sooner for those pilots that like to fly. The rigors of actually flying instead of being flown will always be too much to conquer for most travelers, in most situations, compared to even a hundred times more BS than what the airlines and their approach to security now offer. Hopefully at least the option will still exist for us all in some form.

 

[Bill]

foils

IBM refugee?

 

[wsuffa]

IBM refugee?

ex-wife was....

 

[gismo]

At what point does the airline hassle factor become so convoluted and annoying that it's faster and less stress to make the trip in, say, a covered wagon?

I mean the last 3 people that visited me and several others I know that have made similar trips, I could beat door to door time for ≈1000 mile trips in a ratty CE150. I know, I ran the numbers for the same trip. If it was a race, I would win with plenty of time to spare.

I'm now regretting an earlier decision to fly commercial to Bakersfield CA next week. I had planned to fly myself, but when the friend who had wanted to fly along backed out due to spousal pressure I felt like the trip was a bit too long to fly solo comfortably and the 5.5 hrs gate to gate time looked attractive when compared to my Baron's 7-8 hrs in the air. But with the recommended 3hr waiting in line time plus the fun of the TSA unsecurity check spending the time in the Baron's looking mighy attractive right now.

 

[tonycondon]

Lance if flying solo seeming wasteful is your only reason, Ill ride along

 

[mikea]

Those days are numbered, EVERYBODY'S gonna be getting searched, ALL the time.

And we just not that's going to be effective, After all, the gate screeners found these guys didn't they? Oh, wait.

Have they ever found any actual bad guys in the 5 years of billions of people being hassled at the gate? The tens of thousands of bins full of banned items confiscated don't count unless one single guy carrying them was up to to no good.

 

[gismo]

Lance if flying solo seeming wasteful is your only reason, Ill ride along

Are you serious? I planned to leave Wed afternoon and return Sunday. I'm not sure, but my ticket may have become refundable due to the new security protocols, and if that's true I'd consider it. The only other issue was cost ($1600 fuel vs $600 airfare/parking), but it might be worth the extra $1000 for the experience since I've never flown to California before.

 

[tonycondon]

hmmmmm i thought you were kidding, now i have to decide if im serious. lol. I have some training at iowa state wedensday until 2 PM. I was thinking about soaring in Fairbault on the 19th but flying across the country in a Baron could trump that. Im supposed to tow on the 20th but I can get out of that. I have this class thing on Monday the 21st but not until 1 PM so that leaves latitude for weather. I will make some phone calls this afternoon. PM me your cell and Ill call you tonight with a yes or no. Course you will have to look into refundability.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Have they ever found any actual bad guys in the 5 years of billions of people being hassled at the gate? The tens of thousands of bins full of banned items confiscated don't count unless one single guy carrying them was up to to no good.

That's the beauty of it from the TSA's point of view. They don't have to say whether they're effective or not, because to do so would not be "in the best interests of the security of the United States." I got this runaround repeatedly while trying to find out some stats about ADIZ scrambles/forcedowns/arrests. ANY question you ask the TSA is met with the same response. They do not believe sunshine laws apply to them and they ignore Freedom of Information Act requests unless you file suit against them.

Amok time.

 

[wsuffa]

And just think....

The concern is that an explosive will be formed when two liquids are mixed together.

So what's TSA been doing?

Forcing people to throw out their liquids in big bins... where???? right next to long and serpentine lines of people. So what happens when the active chemicals mix?

The flying public would have been a lot safer if this were handled differently.