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Old March 27th, 2014, 01:56 PM
Posted in reply to 3393RP's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Originally Posted by 3393RP View Post
Wait, I thought you had the aircraft landing in Pakistan after a night intercept and flying in formation with another aircraft for thousands of miles.
Why land in Pakistan where marines found Bin Laden and the whole place is full of flying UAV drones? My choice would have been Somalia where nobody cares but the pirates.

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Old March 27th, 2014, 01:57 PM
Posted in reply to Henning's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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The only turn I know as accurate information is the one toward Lankawi. Most likely the roof unzipped (wouldn't be the first such occurrence) which set up the fugoid which stabilized at a lower altitude.
You say "Lankawi", but the flight path looks more like BELOT, then GIVAL and IGREX. That keeps parallel with Thai airspace (except for a short tangent along the border on the peninsula). It makes the last turn near IGREX where the Indian handoff would be. I'm referencing Inmarsat's depiction to verify published fixes. That's why I propose a possible "Plan B" scenario. If it was a hijacking gone badly, ie, couldn't catch up to SQ68 to shadow it, where else would you put the plane, especially if you were planning to die anyway? United Flight 93 comes to mind.

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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:01 PM   #453
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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If the co-pilot doesn't have the balls to speak up then he has no business flying an airplane.
Not in all cultures. From a US/Western cultural perspective that may be true. In many other cultures - particularly asian cultures - one may find a culture of deference to persons who are older/more experienced and those in power.

The US had a real issue in cockpits a number of years ago which spawned the emphasis on CRM procedures in use today. A real leadership role.

There have been so many theories that have been pontificated on this that I expect the FUD will continue until pieces of the plane are found. In the early days, I was thinking more along the lines of hijack/diversion to a country that harbors evidoers.... but with the latest information & technology analysis (done by Intelsat and others), I lean far more to the theory that it went down in the Indian Ocean. All that's missing is the proof.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:09 PM   #454
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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I have heard of NO concrete evidence that ANY turns took place. What is your source for this ?
There were at least 2 turns.
First turn toward west at IGARI that ended with the last known civilian radar location around wypt IGREX.
Then the next turn was south from that point (supported by Inmarsat organization).
The source: this is in public info, Malaysian gov., Malaysian investigation.
There are two more turns suspected: around wpts: VAMPI, GIVAL, those are between IGARI and IGREX (again based on civilian/military radars).
I mean there is no reputable source out there that questions that at least those 2 turns occurred.

Last edited by olasek; March 27th, 2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:24 PM
Posted in reply to olasek's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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There were at least 2 turns.
First turn toward west at IGARI that ended with the last known civilian radar location around wypt IGREX.
Then the next turn was south from that point (supported by Inmarsat organization).
The source: this is in public info, Malaysian gov., Malaysian investigation.
There are two more turns suspected: around wpts: VAMPI, GIVAL, those are between IGARI and IGREX (again based on civilian/military radars).
I mean there is no reputable source out there that questions that at least those 2 turns occurred.
Well here is an article that details the SCIENCE they used to find the current debris field. Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me. But again it is not sexy or Clancy enough for most so it will probably be dismissed.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001tOW-t...pq2Q5LGxf4Sw==
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:24 PM
Posted in reply to wsuffa's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Not in all cultures. From a US/Western cultural perspective that may be true. In many other cultures - particularly asian cultures - one may find a culture of deference to persons who are older/more experienced and those in power.
Maybe we should tell the Asian carriers to fix their company culture and adopt our CRM, or be barred from operating in the United States and EU.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:25 PM
Posted in reply to ggroves's post "New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

Wait are we talking about actual culture or company culture?
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:28 PM   #458
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me.
Yes, it's fine, this straight line comes after the turns I spoke above. The straight line originates at around IGREX.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:31 PM
Posted in reply to Henning's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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I don't think they ditched, I think they were all long dead from hypoxia by the time the plane ran out of fuel and glided into the ocean.
Had it been a reasonable glide, it may have held together pretty well after it hit the water. That wouldn't leave a whole lot of debris to float off and be found later.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:36 PM
Posted in reply to Matthew's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Had it been a reasonable glide, it may have held together pretty well after it hit the water.
That would be like hitting runway with a 200+ kts glide, at that speed water is like hard surface, the plane would disintegrate into several pieces.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:43 PM   #461
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Originally Posted by Art VanDelay View Post
Well here is an article that details the SCIENCE they used to find the current debris field. Which seems to paint the picture of a fairly straight line to me. But again it is not sexy or Clancy enough for most so it will probably be dismissed.

http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001tOW-t...pq2Q5LGxf4Sw==
That's a good article, but I confess the math wiz lost me with his ant on a basketball analogy. Didn't have the patience to try to follow it. The illustrations are more my speed and in the video they show not two or three turns, but four.
EDIT: Ooops. Watched it again, only three. I counted one turn twice.

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Last edited by dtuuri; March 27th, 2014 at 02:50 PM.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:51 PM
Posted in reply to olasek's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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That would be like hitting runway with a 200+ kts glide, at that speed water is like hard surface, the plane would disintegrate into several pieces.
Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
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Old March 27th, 2014, 02:58 PM
Posted in reply to Matthew's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
Once you crack the hull open, floaty bits come out.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:02 PM
Posted in reply to Piloto's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

This is comical. Post after post about an ELT mounted in the aircraft and its supposedly hidden activation system is debunked by forum members that are actual crew and maintenance engineers. According to these very experienced personnel, the presence of the ELT in the aircraft is unlikely, and a hidden or disguised activation switch is something that has never been seen or even discussed by those familiar with the aircraft in major airline ops.

Then you reference catalog information on an ELT. The manufacturer, Artex, states:

Quote:
The B406-4 has been modified to interface with Boeing's Master Caution System in conjunction with the DZUS mounted cockpit remote panel (P/N 453-0161) for the B737
This statement gives no further information about the interface. How does it interface? Does it provide information to the MCS, does the MCS control the ELT, or both?

The Artex literature further says:

Quote:
and is furthermore approved for use on all models of the B747, B757, B767 and B777.
Stating that the Artex ELT is "approved for use" in the B777 does not mean that the Artex ELT is installed in every B777 now flying. But you certainly make that assertion.

You also claim the MCS "can activate the ELT". From that, your next post ups the ante by saying if the aircraft ran out of fuel in flight it would have "triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight".

You again make the unequivocal claim that the "Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down".

So from vague catalog phraseology stating the Artex ELT will "interface with Boeing's Master Caution System" you make the rather fantastic leap that the MCS will automatically activate the ELT if the aircraft runs out of fuel.

Based upon posts be those that actually fly and maintain the B777, it appears your contention regarding the presence of the ELT, much less its interface and communication with the MCS, is completely without merit.




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So I sit on and wait until the plane crash before calling for rescue. Well you are right on, that's what MH370 pilots did. But I heard that ELTs are no good underwater.

Here is one of the B777 airframe installed ELT suppliers model Airtex B406-4.

http://www.acrartex.com/products/cat...litary/b406-4/

Josť
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Yes, I would activate this one

http://www.acrartex.com/products/cat...litary/b406-4/

before crash and wait for the FAA violation notice.

BTW I am not impressed by your woodstick. You should see my machete. It will cut your stick in half on one sweep.

Josť
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Originally Posted by Piloto
How long it takes to set a switch? On the B777 there is Master Caution system that can activate the ELT. And of course is not a normal procedure, it is an emergency procedure.

Josť

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The probable reason I see for ditching (if they did) after flying that long is because they ran out of fuel. This would have triggered the Master Caution system and activated the ELT automatically while in flight.

Check: http://www.acrartex.com/products/cat...litary/b406-4/

Josť
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Maybe. But the Master Caution System would have activated the ELT before going down. If you do not think they ditched what do you think happened after they glided into the ocean?.

Josť

Last edited by 3393RP; March 27th, 2014 at 03:13 PM.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:06 PM
Posted in reply to Matthew's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Probably so. But would they have been several large pieces that would sink relatively quickly, or a dispersed field of scraps that might float for months?
I don't think it would be much different than what remained out of AF447.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:07 PM
Posted in reply to Piloto's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Why land in Pakistan where marines found Bin Laden and the whole place is full of flying UAV drones? My choice would have been Somalia where nobody cares but the pirates.

Josť
Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.

Which of the seven airports in Somalia with paved runways is where the aircraft is stashed? None of the seven has a hangar large enough to accommodate a 777. All of the other airports in the country with dirt runways long enough to operate the aircraft from have no hangars at all.

.




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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:08 PM
Posted in reply to PPC1052's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Once you crack the hull open, floaty bits come out.
Yeah. I guess even with the Air France that smacked hard, there were still big pieces that floated for a long time.

Just gotta find one.

That's a big-ass ocean.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:19 PM
Posted in reply to Matthew's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:32 PM
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands.
So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 03:53 PM
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant.
Seems to me they should be more concerned with why some party members have Bentlys to drive around in and own skyscrapers while they get crap wages for crap jobs.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 04:00 PM
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Re: New Information On MH 370

There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens??

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So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 04:17 PM
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Wait are we talking about actual culture or company culture?
Actual culture.

And telling them they can't fly into our airspace becomes an international political matter. With all the implications. (I've been in a meeting where the gov't reps from one country said "If you don't, we won't let you fly in our airspace" to the gov't reps from another country. It was "interesting" to watch.)

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Speaking of cultural differences I find it a bit disturbing how the Chinese are reacting with protests and demands. It's a tragedy yes, but there's also such a thing as having some dignity in your grief. Every explanation as to the "why" of this is still pure speculation but the finger pointing is rampant.
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So do I. This vilification of Malaysian government by those Chinese I find specially ironic considering how non-transparent and political their own government is. And having the highest number of their own nationals among victims the Chinese are not exactly in the forefront of the search effort.
No surprise with this, either. There is a certain amount of geopolitical tension between the two countries.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 04:18 PM
Posted in reply to N747JB's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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There are a BILLION Chinese, do you think they are going to spend a lot of money searching the oceans for 100 dead Chinese citizens??
Good point...........

There were 100 Chinese children born in the same amount of time it took me to type this..
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Old March 27th, 2014, 04:35 PM
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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FWIW I would trust basically nothing coming out of the Malaysian government. If they suddenly have a "source" that says the captain was mentally ill it's quite possible they either completely made that or forced the "source" to say something. They were awful quick to start blaming their captain with basically no evidence to support that from the beginning. Anything they can do to take the light away from how poorly they handled things initially they will do and I doubt they feel bad about throwing the blame on a dead captain.
Jessee,

Most sensible post in this thread. I'm with you on believing they are on a witch hunt. Any old scapegoat will do, and the people making the press releases are in CYA mode. At this point, it's akin to proving murder when you can't find a dead body.
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Old March 27th, 2014, 04:40 PM
Posted in reply to 3393RP's post "Re: New Information On MH 370"
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Re: New Information On MH 370

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Why, of course! The pirates in Somalia have shown themselves to be a highly organized technically capable organization. Arranging for a Boeing 777 to be hijacked and flown to Somalia, hidden in a hangar and repainted would be a cakewalk for these guys.

Yep. The guy with the binoculars looks to be pretty crafty. He is likely the mastermind and knows exactly where it is. It's not in a hangar. They threw tree branches over it just like in the WWII movies.
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