Today Tehran, Tomorrow the World (from Atlas Shrugged)

[poadeleted1]

Can we have a serious discussion over this one without getting hostile and nasty? I would like to see some reasoned discussion of this because it is, or could be the future, not withstanding the Illegal Immigrant issues for the USA.

KP
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What's at stake in the dispute over Iranian nukes? Ultimately, human survival:

This atavistic love of blood and death and, indeed, self-immolation in the name of God may not be new--medieval Europe had an abundance of millennial Christian sects--but until now it has never had the means to carry out its apocalyptic ends.

That is why Iran's arriving at the threshold of nuclear weaponry is such a signal historical moment. It is not just that its President says crazy things about the Holocaust. It is that he is a fervent believer in the imminent reappearance of the 12th Imam, Shi'ism's version of the Messiah. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has been reported as saying in official meetings that the end of history is only two or three years away. He reportedly told an associate that on the podium of the General Assembly last September, he felt a halo around him and for "those 27 or 28 minutes, the leaders of the world did not blink ... as if a hand was holding them there and it opened their eyes to receive" his message. He believes that the Islamic revolution's raison d'etre is to prepare the way for the messianic redemption, which in his eschatology is preceded by worldwide upheaval and chaos. How better to light the fuse for eternal bliss than with a nuclear flame?

Depending on your own beliefs, Ahmadinejad is either mystical or deranged. In either case, he is exceedingly dangerous.

Pretending otherwise will not make it so, no matter how many times the mantra BUSH LIE PEOPLE DIED is repeated.

And Iran is just the first.

If nothing is done, we face not proliferation but hyperproliferation. Not just one but many radical states will get weapons of mass extinction, and then so will the fanatical and suicidal terrorists who are their brothers and clients.

That will present the world with two futures. The first is Feynman's vision of human destruction on a scale never seen.

The second, perhaps after one or two cities are lost with millions killed in a single day, is a radical abolition of liberal democracy as the species tries to maintain itself by reverting to strict authoritarianism--a self-imposed expulsion from the Eden of post-Enlightenment freedom.

Can there be a third future? That will depend on whether we succeed in holding proliferation at bay. Iran is the test case. It is the most dangerous political entity on the planet, and yet the world response has been catastrophically slow and reluctant. Years of knowingly useless negotiations, followed by hesitant international resolutions, have brought us to only the most tentative of steps--referral to a Security Council that lacks unity and resolve. Iran knows this and therefore defiantly and openly resumes its headlong march to nuclear status. If we fail to prevent an Iranian regime run by apocalyptic fanatics from going nuclear, we will have reached a point of no return. It is not just that Iran might be the source of a great conflagration but that we will have demonstrated to the world that for those similarly inclined there is no serious impediment.
Our planet is 4,500,000,000 years old, and we've had nukes for exactly 61.

Iran is at war with us and has been for 27 years. Someone should alert the press and the U.S. government. hat tip on Ledeen, IranPressNews

[Bill Jennings]

Originally Posted by F.W. Birdman, Jr.

The second, perhaps after one or two cities are lost with millions killed in a single day, is a radical abolition of liberal democracy as the species tries to maintain itself by reverting to strict authoritarianism--a self-imposed expulsion from the Eden of post-Enlightenment freedom.

Can there be a third future?

I hope enough folks will see that we need to deal now, so the third future is a reality. I'm afraid we will end up with the second future, which may snowball into the first anyway.

Hitler with nukes. 'Nuff said.

[Alon Smolarski]

I guess I'm getting the best seat to watch the upcoming islamic firecrackers festival...good thing I have a concrete shelter in my basement...I shouldn't be too surprised since I'm flying from the Armageddon airfield in the Valley of Jezreel...

Chamberlain believed Hitler could be "contained" with phony treaties and agreements...history, of course, proved him wrong (he is also remembered as a coward...)

The problem, as I see it, is that Bush wasted his ammo on Irak (old family quarrel with Saddam he had to solve...)
I guess that after spending all those billions and having all those soldiers killed, the American people will be reluctant to start another war.

By the way, when Israel decided to destroy Irak's nuclear facilities back in 1981, the entire world condemned the operation...including the USA...

[FB]

Originally Posted by Armageddon Aviator

By the way, when Israel decided to destroy Irak's nuclear facilities back in 1981, the entire world condemned the operation...including the USA...

My guess is that was for public consumption. Probably different dialog behind the scenes.

[Bill Jennings]

Originally Posted by Armageddon Aviator

By the way, when Israel decided to destroy Irak's nuclear facilities back in 1981, the entire world condemned the operation...including the USA...

I'm afraid you guys will have to do the dirty work again.

[Dave Krall CFII SEL SES]

I don't think we'll have to do a thing about Iran's impending nuke capability because Israel will take care of it for us and much more efficiently as well. Cool little country.

[poadeleted1]

Originally Posted by Dave Krall CFII

I don't think we'll have to do a thing about Iran's impending nuke capability because Israel will take care of it for us and much more efficiently as well. Cool little country.

Maybe, maybe not. New government elected seems bent on appeasement and being nice. Maybe when the blade is against the throat they will remember the past.....but right now....I am scared for them. And us. Not on a personal basis, but on a collective basis, because I firmly subscribe to the words of Sir Winston below....

[Alon Smolarski]

We'll need a lot of help this time...

Cruise missiles, UAV's, stealth bombers and decent satellite coverage are required to take out Iran's anti aircraft missiles and radars...

They are crazy but not stupid - they know we're coming to get them and they've had plenty of time to prepare....

Anyhow, I feel we're heading for "interesting" times again !

By the way, I still vividly remember Desert Storm, I used to work as a paramedic back then.
Patriot missile units were deployed 300 yards from where I used to live. The units were manned by American soldiers (friendly guys).
Each time incoming Scuds were detected, those Patriot crews would launch dozens of their toys - it was an exciting sight I can tell you that much !

[Lalex]

When I think of today's clash of "civilizations" I can only think of the opening paragraph from Thomas Paine's "The Crisis":

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."

And maybe another one from the same author which I would target to those "appeasniks" or "tree huggers" everywhere:

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. "

All written @250 years ago...

Nuf' said...

Al

[AsGoodAsCake]

Originally Posted by lalex

And maybe another one from the same author which I would target to those "appeasniks" or "tree huggers" everywhere:

Al

Al,

Not disagreeing with what you said, but what I view as a "tree hugger" is much different my view of "apeaseniks" and just because you are one does not always make you the other. I think you are wrongfully categorizing "tree hugger"s with "appesnicks". "Tree Hugger" is more of an environmental protectionist term, people who think that the environment that we all live in needs to be protected from those who are unscrupulously and wastefully use it for only personal gain and has nothing to do with being appeasing to menacing regimes.

Missa

[Dave Krall CFII SEL SES]

[quote=Armageddon Aviator]We'll need a lot of help this time...

Cruise missiles, UAV's, stealth bombers and decent satellite coverage are required to take out Iran's anti aircraft missiles and radars...

They are crazy but not stupid - they know we're coming to get them and they've had plenty of time to prepare....

quote]

WT_? The Israeli Air Force should have them all wiped out in a few hours.

[Lalex]

Originally Posted by Missa

Al,

Not disagreeing with what you said, but what I view as a "tree hugger" is much different my view of "apeaseniks" and just because you are one does not always make you the other. I think you are wrongfully categorizing "tree hugger"s with "appesnicks". "Tree Hugger" is more of an environmental protectionist term, people who think that the environment that we all live in needs to be protected from those who are unscrupulously and wastefully use it for only personal gain and has nothing to do with being appeasing to menacing regimes.

Missa

I stand corrected - maybe it's been too many times the two stood together... Don't get me wrong - I am fully for living on a cleaner, healthier planet, but when the Greenpeace flag is risen in political demonstrations with an agenda totally disconnected from saving the environment, then I have a problem.

BTW, this is the reason why I stopped my $ monthly contribution to Greenpeace several years ago... When I see their activists hung on Iranian nuclear reactors fences fighting for their close-down, I might re-consider.

So to get it straight: for as long as "tree hugging" is limited to "tree hugging" count me in. When it moves to "love thy enemy" - I prefer to hug a cactus :-)

[AsGoodAsCake]

Originally Posted by lalex

So to get it straight: for as long as "tree hugging" is limited to "tree hugging" count me in. When it moves to "love thy enemy" - I prefer to hug a cactus :-)

Agreed!

There is lots of people who are both, but not all! And it's those who are both and carry the banner over the line that give the rest of us a bad name.

It's just like the fact that not all geeks are loosers but there are a lot of geeks that are loosers so most non-geeks equate geeks with loosers and that give the rest of us geeks a bad name!

Missa

[UP'er]

Originally Posted by lalex

BTW, this is the reason why I stopped my $ monthly contribution to Greenpeace several years ago... When I see their activists hung on Iranian nuclear reactors fences fighting for their close-down, I might re-consider.

So to get it straight: for as long as "tree hugging" is limited to "tree hugging" count me in. When it moves to "love thy enemy" - I prefer to hug a cactus :-)

Thank you for the clarification - too many times people throw terms like that around rather loosely when characterizing people they disagree with, without any real thought about what they truly mean

I'm sure Greenpeace would be happy to be admitted into the country to protest their nuclear program I don't see it happening...

R
Professional Tree Hugger - First Class

[poadeleted1]

All reasonable thus far. Thank you people, for maintaining your bearings and keeping things on an adult level.

[poadeleted1]

Originally Posted by Dave Krall CFII

WT_? The Israeli Air Force should have them all wiped out in a few hours.

That is the hope Dave, but as was pointed out, the Iranians have had a lot of time to prepare defenses, and the Israelis have no friends in the region to provide them support. If all those "neighbors" decide that Israel is weak and ready to be plucked, I fear that the Israelis will go down swinging, but they will go down. Just before they hit the deck though, I would expect that they will unleash their nuclear weapons on Terhan and a couple of other places.

And don't expect the UN to do anything. I would expect loud howls in the US when we come to the aid of Israel.

[Lalex]

Some reading suggestions:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140...lance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089...lance&n=283155

and last but not least (actually shouldabeen the first):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089...lance&n=283155

Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with Amazon, its affiliates and/or any of the books authors and/or publishers.

These are books that I own, have read and I think that every person who wishes to stay informed and not be influenced by demagogy, double-talk and disinformation.

I have this book on order:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/083...lance&n=283155

[poadeleted1]

Try as they might to not have a slant, every writer, every book has a bias. It is up to the reader to recognize it and apply the proper correction factor. Not saying that those books are bad choices or overly slanted, just that they are on one side of the line for the most part.

[Lalex]

Originally Posted by F.W. Birdman, Jr.

Try as they might to not have a slant, every writer, every book has a bias. It is up to the reader to recognize it and apply the proper correction factor. Not saying that those books are bad choices or overly slanted, just that they are on one side of the line for the most part.

Well, each book I pointed to, meets a similar "book" from the other end of bias.

IMO - balance is achieved.

Oh, and while I'm at it, here's another one: http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1631

[poadeleted1]

Not disagreeing lalex, just maintaining the strain, so to speak.

[Bill Jennings]

Originally Posted by F.W. Birdman, Jr.

That is the hope Dave, but as was pointed out, the Iranians have had a lot of time to prepare defenses

Yes, they've learned from the earlier raids.

Just before they hit the deck though, I would expect that they will unleash their nuclear weapons on Terhan and a couple of other places.

We are in the beginning of WWIII, like it or not.

[Lalex]

To Birdman: Never thought otherwise :-)

To Bill J.: IMHO we are NOT "in the beginning of WWIII". WWIII has been well under way since 9/11.

IMHO 9/11 is the Pearl Harbor of WWIII with the same outcome - a total crush of the terrorists and their supporters and their transformation into contributing and peaceful members of a modern society...

I only hope that we all live to see it.

Al