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Old March 3rd, 2012, 01:13 PM   #26
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by peppy View Post
At a 60 degree bank angle a plane stalls at 1.41 times its normal stall speed. Secondly, you are assuming full flaps are in. Is that known?
This seems to be a recurring thing here, but... your stall speed only increases in a turn if and ONLY if you fight the vertical acceleration that results from banking. If you crank in 60* of bank and do nothing to check the resulting descent rate, your stall speed will remain the same since there will be no increase in load factor. Remember, the wing doesn't care about its position relative to the horizon. The real killer is when you start pulling back on the yoke to prevent your airplane from descending -- thereby increasing your load factor. And, again, you only have an increased load factor when you're in a banked turn and attempting to hold a steady vertical speed. You can just as easily enter an accelerated stall with zero degrees of bank. All you gotta do is pull back hard enough, fast enough.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 01:51 PM   #27
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

This is why an AOA is vital to GA. The FAA has stalled long enough. I hope someone can STC them in Cirrus soon. As the wife gave a go ahead to purchase a SR22!!!
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 03:18 PM   #28
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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This is why an AOA is vital to GA. The FAA has stalled long enough. I hope someone can STC them in Cirrus soon. As the wife gave a go ahead to purchase a SR22!!!
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:13 PM   #29
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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This is why an AOA is vital to GA. The FAA has stalled long enough. I hope someone can STC them in Cirrus soon. As the wife gave a go ahead to purchase a SR22!!!
I'm pretty sure you can get one right now.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:14 PM   #30
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by jmp470 View Post
This is why an AOA is vital to GA. The FAA has stalled long enough. I hope someone can STC them in Cirrus soon. As the wife gave a go ahead to purchase a SR22!!!
I respectively dissagree......

An AOA is just a tool, one of many that assists a pilot to help make any flight a safe one. Staring at the AOA indicator will lead to unintended consequences... Just fly the plane.... By relying on a multitude of gauges to save your butt will give a false sense of security. If you cannot fly a pattern without using gauges my I suggest more time with a competent instructor.... Without good seat of the pants feedback you are just another one who is behind the plane..IMHO
My opinion is this poor guy did a "yank and bank on a base to final turn...
My instructor drilled into my head "DON'T DO THAT " ..


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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:22 PM   #31
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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My opinion is this poor guy did a "yank and bank on a base to final turn...
My instructor drilled into my head "DON'T DO THAT " ..


Ben.
Your instructor obviously didn't understand the finer points of the overhead break pattern...
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:31 PM   #32
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by N801BH View Post
I respectively dissagree......

An AOA is just a tool, one of many that assists a pilot to help make any flight a safe one. Staring at the AOA indicator will lead to unintended consequences... Just fly the plane.... By relying on a multitude of gauges to save your butt will give a false sense of security. If you cannot fly a pattern without using gauges my I suggest more time with a competent instructor.... Without good seat of the pants feedback you are just another one who is behind the plane..IMHO
My opinion is this poor guy did a "yank and bank on a base to final turn...
My instructor drilled into my head "DON'T DO THAT " ..


Ben.
Agreed. It's also likely that even if the accident aircraft had had an AOA, the accident pilot - who was at least rushed, possibly disoriented, and may even have panicked when tower told him to tighten his turn - never looked at the panel during the accident sequence. Sadly, based on the ATC audio, it sounds like his fate was sealed in seconds - not enough time to verify his control inputs against an AOA.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 05:48 PM   #33
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by peppy View Post
At a 60 degree bank angle a plane stalls at 1.41 times its normal stall speed.
Only if it's being held in a level turn (i.e., 2g load factor). Hold 1 g at 60 bank, and stall speed is unchanged. Unload it at that bank angle, and stall speed goes down, not up.

Why won't they make AoA gauges mandatory equipment?
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:11 PM   #34
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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. . . The FAA has stalled long enough. . . .
Hahahhahaha
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:39 PM   #35
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
Why won't they make AoA gauges mandatory equipment?
For the same reason that everyone seems to complain about ADS-B. Think of the cost.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:48 PM   #36
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by Ron Levy View Post
Why won't they make AoA gauges mandatory equipment?
I'd like to see AoA gauges as an option on GA airplanes. I would NOT, however, support making them mandatory. I'd tend to think AoA gauges wouldn't really even help with most of the low altitude stall/spin accidents anyway. Those accidents usually happen after the pilot got miles behind the airplane in the first place, and an AoA gauge would likely go completely unnoticed while they're yanking and banking in a panic.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:49 PM   #37
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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I listened to the tape a couple of times.

Tower had cleared two Cirri to land on 9R, and did not advise either of them "Number 2".

The crashed Cirrus had requested - and received the OK for - a long landing on 9R so he turned base early. This apparently put him in conflict with the other Cirrus on final and resulted in very agitated instructions from the Tower.

I know its see and avoid in Class D, but it sounds like the Tower could have done more for the crashed Cirrus.

The tower was working simultaneous landings on two parallel runways. The frequency was busy. I'm guessing the crashed Cirrus never heard the landing clearance for the other Cirrus, and so never made the "I'm No. 2 and I'll have to extend to get behind him" thought.
Didn't the controller tell the crashed Cirrus to turn left just after he approved the long landing on 9R? And he never told the Cirrus he was cleared to land although the Cirrus readback cleared to land. I don't think the tower had him in sight until the Cirrus said he was on a tight base. The tower must have picked him up and saw the conflict with Cirrus 611DA that was cleared to do a touch and go. That's when he instructed him to turn it tight to runway 9R.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 06:58 PM   #38
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthammer View Post
I'd like to see AoA gauges as an option on GA airplanes. I would NOT, however, support making them mandatory. I'd tend to think AoA gauges wouldn't really even help with most of the low altitude stall/spin accidents anyway. Those accidents usually happen after the pilot got miles behind the airplane in the first place, and an AoA gauge would likely go completely unnoticed while they're yanking and banking in a panic.
Agreed.


---- related rant below-----

"AoA gauges"

Oh good grief -- another gauge?? Sure, if you need one on your panel -- fine. Toss in a metronome, astrolabe, and abacus while you're at it...



How many stall-spins occurred in airplanes with operating stall horns?

Here's a thought -- learn to fly and feel the wing without relying on a gadget.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 07:28 PM   #39
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by dmccormack View Post
...Toss in a metronome, astrolabe, and abacus while you're at it........Here's a thought -- learn to fly and feel the wing without relying on a gadget.
Astrolabe- Naaah. You'd need to reinstall the bubble above the back seat.

But Dan you're spot on. I miss my AOA but even the big airplanes are talking to you when flying. One just has to STFU and listen.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 07:39 PM   #40
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmccormack View Post
Agreed.


---- related rant below-----

"AoA gauges"

Oh good grief -- another gauge?? Sure, if you need one on your panel -- fine. Toss in a metronome, astrolabe, and abacus while you're at it...



How many stall-spins occurred in airplanes with operating stall horns?

Here's a thought -- learn to fly and feel the wing without relying on a gadget.

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Old March 3rd, 2012, 07:54 PM   #41
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by matthammer View Post
I'd like to see AoA gauges as an option on GA airplanes. I would NOT, however, support making them mandatory. I'd tend to think AoA gauges wouldn't really even help with most of the low altitude stall/spin accidents anyway. Those accidents usually happen after the pilot got miles behind the airplane in the first place, and an AoA gauge would likely go completely unnoticed while they're yanking and banking in a panic.
At the very least an AoA gauge provides the opportunity to greatly enhance one's understanding of where the low speed edges of the envelope are. In addition it's not hard to train someone to at least glance at an AoA indicator anytime you're maneuvering near the ground or in any situation where a stall might have serious consequences, much like I learned a long time ago to check my car's rear view mirror any time I find it necessary to brake hard or in an unusual place. Finally most of the Alpha Systems AoA systems (which sell for $600-1600) have a voice alert that should get one's attention even in a high stress situation.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 08:35 PM   #42
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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At the very least an AoA gauge provides the opportunity to greatly enhance one's understanding of where the low speed edges of the envelope are. In addition it's not hard to train someone to at least glance at an AoA indicator anytime you're maneuvering near the ground or in any situation where a stall might have serious consequences, much like I learned a long time ago to check my car's rear view mirror any time I find it necessary to brake hard or in an unusual place. Finally most of the Alpha Systems AoA systems (which sell for $600-1600) have a voice alert that should get one's attention even in a high stress situation.
So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time? Not to mention the cues I should get based on my airspeed, seat-of-the-pants feel for load factor, and a feel for the effectiveness of my flight controls. I just don't see the value. At least, I don't see the value amounting to anywhere near that required to make an AoA indicator "mandatory."
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 09:59 PM   #43
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by Henning View Post
Translation: Hunh? Oh wait! Surprise! ROFL, ROFL


Response:
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 10:01 PM   #44
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by bbchien View Post
But Dan you're spot on. I miss my AOA but even the big airplanes are talking to you when flying. One just has to STFU and listen.
Not when I can spend more money! Yes! That's it! Money = safety!!



It's gym memberships for people who never work out....
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 11:21 PM   #45
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by dmccormack View Post
Translation: Hunh? Oh wait! Surprise! ROFL, ROFL


Response:

It means it that though gets scarier and scarier for some people... I find that humorous. I don't disagree with your words.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmccormack View Post
Here's a thought -- learn to fly and feel the wing without relying on a gadget.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #47
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

My first post here. Nice to meet you all.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #48
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by matthammer View Post
So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time?
AoA gauges are not just about stall. They also give you best glide, best rate of climb, best angle of climb, best approach, max range cruise, optimum cruise, max endurance glide, and best turn. Your stall horn doesn't do that, and you'd need a calculator and a lot of data that isn't in your POH to figure all those speeds for every weight from emply+pilot to max gross so you can use your ASI for that. OTOH, once you figure the AoA's for each of those things and put them on the AoA gauge, you have it all at a glance, instantly, regardless of weight.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #49
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by matthammer View Post
So essentially I'd be paying $600-1600 so I could hear both the voice alert of my AoA indicator and the buzz of my stall horn at the same time? Not to mention the cues I should get based on my airspeed, seat-of-the-pants feel for load factor, and a feel for the effectiveness of my flight controls. I just don't see the value. At least, I don't see the value amounting to anywhere near that required to make an AoA indicator "mandatory."
IME a "buzzing" stall horn (or gear horn for that matter) is fairly easy to tune out when you're stressed and an insistent female voice ("Too Slow, Too Slow") is significantly more likely to get your attention. And having an AoA indicator provides much more than any stall warning because it shows how close to the stalling AoA you are currently as well as the AoA trend, neither of which are available with a stall warning device. As to the butt and flight control feel, those have nowhere near the quantifiable indication of an AoA indicator. Those kinesthetic senses are great for detecting changes and provide useful input while your vision is directed outside but rather unreliable for absolute measurement.

All that aside I don't think AoA should be mandatory either, I just find it more useful than most pilots who haven't flown with it in a light airplane tend to believe.
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Old March 4th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #50
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Re: Melbourne cirrus crash. Stall/spin?

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Originally Posted by dmccormack View Post
Not when I can spend more money! Yes! That's it! Money = safety!!



It's gym memberships for people who never work out....

No no, money = EFFICIENCY. With today's fuel prices it's all about efficiency and that's why you want AoA. You can fine tune your power setting much more effectively.
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