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Old August 14th, 2011, 04:07 PM
Posted in reply to dmccormack's post "Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

Yes, Mari, that's what I meant by extreme. Hot dogging around is fun when you have room and you won't hit somebody in the pattern. If you are at a large military field and it's part of the training blah blah blah then I imagine it's a blast to get to do that... but at dinky airports w/ folks training then it seems to be unsafe judgment - which I suppose was Dan's point in the beginning
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Old August 14th, 2011, 04:08 PM
Posted in reply to dmccormack's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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It's a way for people who never served or didn't serve long enough to pretend they're still in.



http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...t=34206&page=2

Maybe there's a hint in that they call themselves "Van's Air Force"?

That procedure would take more time to complete than just slowing down and doing a straight in approach. And if there is traffic, you still have to time it to fit in. Really saves no time, energy, or money, and, if not done properly, could have lots of consequences. I see no good reason to do this.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 04:29 PM
Posted in reply to EdFred's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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But would it be accurate to say that a higher percentage of RV pilots "hot-dog" it around airports than the typical spam canner?
Well, the slow guys (like my cherokee 140) can't do quite so much hot-dogging...or at least no one would be able to tell. :-)
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Old August 14th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Posted in reply to Bob Noel's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

time and a place.... and the Pattern with Un-briefed fellow pilots of unknown skill level in NOT the place. My only showing off was to do a 180 at 800 AGL after take off and dive to 300'AGL over the runway for a screaming 110MPH pass in a C150. I was very very sure there was Nobody else in the pattern, and I made several radio calls about my intentions. To interfere with people flying 'normal' patterns is rude as well as dangerous. Dave
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Old August 14th, 2011, 05:01 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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I was very very sure there was Nobody else in the pattern, and I made several radio calls about my intentions. To interfere with people flying 'normal' patterns is rude as well as dangerous. Dave
This is key -- if you hear someone else in or near the pattern, be considerate.

Even so, I can't ever see a reason to fly at TPA opposite the normal flow -- especially a field where NORDO is frequent.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Posted in reply to Pilawt's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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I've made a nice living from those who thought their performance cars made them better drivers than the law-abiding "slowpokes" on the road.
How slow? The Wa. State Patrol recently released a memo that driving to slow in the left hand lanes ( which is Illegal) is the leading cause of road rage. It is also illegal to drive continuously in the left lane of any state road or highway, the RCW says that the left lane is a passing or left turn lane & thru traffic should use the Right hand lane, and illegal to have more than 5 cars backed up behind you if you are not maintaining the speed limit. Ok do these are rarely enforced. But they are still the law. I am allowed by law to exceed the posted speed limit while passing and am allowed a 'reasonable distance' to slow to the limit. Most of these 'slowpokes' I observe will drive five under the speed limit then fail to make a complete stop behind the stop line or fail to signal as they move into my lane with out looking. I have never been hit by a speeder, but I have been hit and hospitalized by 'slowpokes' who did not yield the right of way. If I pass you I am not forcing you to follow at my speed, my draft will not accelerate your car, but if a slowpoke blocks my way at 5 under then they are imposing their will on me.. very unfair behavior. Sorry, I do not believe that driving slow automatically makes one either safe or legal. I may speed but otherwise I drive VERY legally (I have won EVERY ticket I have contested in court, but If I am guilty I pay the fine gladly). But then I notice that many people with very low performance also are driving high performance cars. My pet peeve is BMW drivers, my experience is that they so seldom use turn signals that I assume signals must be optional equipment they did not buy. This the Same guy who does the overhead break in his RV. Dave
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Old August 14th, 2011, 05:28 PM
Posted in reply to kyleb's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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I AM RVDriver on the Red Board. "They" don't have a problem, nor do I. A few individuals may have a problem, and the problem may have a high profile, but don't extend that to the bigger group.

Similarly, just because doctors have a reputation for cashing in their chips crashing expensive airplanes that were beyond their competency level doesn't mean I lump you or any other doctor into that group or that I say doctor/pilots are a menace to society. Certainly, a few probably are, but that's an individual thing to be addressed on that basis.
Try again, Kyle.

I'm a P3 skipper, learned in a disciplined environment. Became a doc to educate my kids. The issue is the lack of discipline. Checkout the string again.

RV pilots have a problem amongst themselves, and refuse to see it.

I would summarize it by saying,

"COOL" is not showboating over a public airport.
"COOL" is not disregarding others in flight.
"COOL" is years of useful transport utility without hurting or bending anybody.
"Overhead Break" at a public airport.....not so much.
"Those dangerous underpowered Cessnas".....not so much.

If you guys don't start exerting pressure on your own, believe me, AFS 600 will do it for you. I'm just the messenger.

Here's a digest of the redboard string:
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?p=1408644#post1408644
Attached Files
File Type: doc RV Drivers.doc (35.0 KB, 41 views)
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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:08 PM
Posted in reply to Jeanie's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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WTF, they enter the pattern going 170 kts and do an overhead break to lose airspeed and altitude.... I still don't understand the procedure but it seems a bit extreme to me
It actually served a purpose in the old radial engine military airplanes in that it allowed you to maintain a decent power setting (to prevent shock cooling and reverse loading by pulling the power way back) and then slow the airplane down in the break enough to get you inside the flap and gear speeds.

Really not much practical purpose in a modern day GA airplane unless you are just trying to act cool/show off.

As far as entering the pattern at 170, it is more like flying a straight in low approach at high speed and then when you are over the runway, you enter the pattern by pulling up and turning x-wind, levelling off on the downwind at pattern altitude. Think of it as an extreme ILS turned into a circling approach.

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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:14 PM
Posted in reply to Aztec Driver's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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That procedure would take more time to complete than just slowing down and doing a straight in approach. And if there is traffic, you still have to time it to fit in. Really saves no time, energy, or money, and, if not done properly, could have lots of consequences. I see no good reason to do this.
All true. Practicing for an airshow is about the only modern reason to do it.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:28 PM
Posted in reply to Jeanie's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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Yes, Mari, that's what I meant by extreme. Hot dogging around is fun when you have room and you won't hit somebody in the pattern. If you are at a large military field and it's part of the training blah blah blah then I imagine it's a blast to get to do that... but at dinky airports w/ folks training then it seems to be unsafe judgment - which I suppose was Dan's point in the beginning
True. I've seen people do the overhead break at controlled and uncontrolled airports but I've honestly not given that much thought to it one way or another. One thing I did learn today is about how many people view RVs. I've always thought of them as a cute little homebuilt. The words, "wanna-be military" never entered my mind, even though I have seen some painted in military-looking colors. I never knew they had more negative reputation than Cirruses/Cirri or whatever they are called.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 07:54 PM
Posted in reply to Everskyward's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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True. I've seen people do the overhead break at controlled and uncontrolled airports but I've honestly not given that much thought to it one way or another. One thing I did learn today is about how many people view RVs. I've always thought of them as a cute little homebuilt. The words, "wanna-be military" never entered my mind, even though I have seen some painted in military-looking colors. I never knew they had more negative reputation than Cirruses/Cirri or whatever they are called.
There are some airports that seem to attract RVs. Hang around there a week or so and you'll quickly come to the same conclusions...
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:36 PM
Posted in reply to Fearless Tower's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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It actually served a purpose in the old radial engine military airplanes in that it allowed you to maintain a decent power setting (to prevent shock cooling and reverse loading by pulling the power way back) and then slow the airplane down in the break enough to get you inside the flap and gear speeds.

Really not much practical purpose in a modern day GA airplane unless you are just trying to act cool/show off.

As far as entering the pattern at 170, it is more like flying a straight in low approach at high speed and then when you are over the runway, you enter the pattern by pulling up and turning x-wind, leveling off on the downwind at pattern altitude. Think of it as an extreme ILS turned into a circling approach.
Actually it doesn't matter what type of engine you have as much as a method of getting a 10 aircraft squadron over head and then separated to land.
The Navy at sea, will have the returning air group arrive over head the ship for the boss to see how many aircraft he has to land, then break at 30 second intervals ahead of the ship and enter into the down wind. to land 2 minutes apart.

I see no problem if the RV squadrons want to do this, but they should arrive at the airport much higher than pattern altitude and break into the up wind.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:39 PM
Posted in reply to dmccormack's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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There are some airports that seem to attract RVs. Hang around there a week or so and you'll quickly come to the same conclusions...
AWO is one of them, and the RV squadron is mostly old military pilots and old retired airline pilots (maybe both) running on ego.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:48 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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I see no problem if the RV squadrons want to do this, but they should arrive at the airport much higher than pattern altitude and break into the up wind.
Please explain how a "break into the up wind" would work?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:49 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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AWO is one of them, and the RV squadron is mostly old military pilots and old retired airline pilots (maybe both) running on ego.
You mean that it's like that all the time and not just on the few days before the yearly fly-in? I have a story about AWO which starts with looking at the NOTAMS and wondering why there would be a temporary tower there the next day. I had no idea.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:51 PM
Posted in reply to dmccormack's post "Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

Dan, was this at KLNS?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:07 PM
Posted in reply to kkoran's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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Please explain how a "break into the up wind" would work?
I suspect he meant downwind.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:34 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

Blowing into the middle of the pattern, whether you're doing a straight in approach or a "cool" high speed break when other traffic is there is dangerous. It doesn't matter if you're flying a C150 or a RV or a Lear, the law of averages will catch up with you. Just stay away from MY airport when it does.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:35 PM
Posted in reply to kkoran's post "Re: Pattern Madness"
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Re: Pattern Madness

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Please explain how a "break into the up wind" would work?
For this explanation Let's assume we have a north south runway.

the squadron entering from the north would be flying south overhead the runway above the traffic, and break left desending into the up wind.

as they bank left they get a good look at the up wind area, desend to traffic altitude, and do the cross wind, down wind, and base, to final.

coming from the south, add an extra left U turn at the top of the pattern.

this is a normal landing at any non towered airport in Canada, go to the center of the field, check the sock, and turn into the appropriate down wind.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:41 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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Dan, was this at KLNS?

No, S37
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:45 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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You mean that it's like that all the time and not just on the few days before the yearly fly-in?

Pretty much any time you have 3 or more of the RV squadron flying,

I have a story about AWO which starts with looking at the NOTAMS and wondering why there would be a temporary tower there the next day. I had no idea.
This years Notam was typical of the past 10 years or so, the tower is there during the flyin. when I fly into AWO during the meet, I go early, and use normal pattern, enter from Island crossing to the 45 to the left down wind to base and final on 34. at about 0600 there is nobody up to wave stuff at you, no signs to show where you want to park. stuff like that.

and you leave right after the airshow and it's a simple climbing left 45 and I'm home.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:55 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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This years Notam was typical of the past 10 years or so, the tower is there during the flyin.
The tower is there during the fly-in but apparently many of the planes arrive before the fly-in and camp out on the runways and beside the taxiways. Then there is the ignorant transient pilot (me) who checks the NOTAMS and realizes there is going to be temporary tower the next day but nothing rings a bell in her mind as to why because she is not clued in to the EAA and the world of fly-ins. Big surprise.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:58 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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So, how does one do "an overhead break" and if you aren't military practicing in T38s or whatever the current trainer is why would you want to even do that?
It is an excellent forced landing technique; a logical extension of the power off 180; a power-off 360.

Forced landing (gliding) skills are built with 90, 180, and 360 degree gliding turns that put you on final for a landing spot.

Of course, these maneuvers must not be in conflict with 'normal' traffic, ...but they do (can) serve a very useful purpose.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:59 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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For this explanation Let's assume we have a north south runway.

the squadron entering from the north would be flying south overhead the runway above the traffic, and break left desending into the up wind.

as they bank left they get a good look at the up wind area, desend to traffic altitude, and do the cross wind, down wind, and base, to final.

coming from the south, add an extra left U turn at the top of the pattern.

this is a normal landing at any non towered airport in Canada, go to the center of the field, check the sock, and turn into the appropriate down wind.
Good explanation, though it's not like any Canadian pattern entry I've every heard of. The Canadian entry I'm familiar involves crossing the runway from the upwind side at pattern altitude and turning downwind.

Two concerns I have with your proposal are:
1. It requires aircraft to descend in the pattern. Descending on the upwind leg is probably not as bad as descending on the downwind leg, but if there's a plan on upwind, the results could be just as unpleasant.

2. The potential for conflict with aircraft departing straight out, especially high-performance ones.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:08 PM
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Re: Pattern Madness

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Good explanation, though it's not like any Canadian pattern entry I've every heard of. The Canadian entry I'm familiar involves crossing the runway from the upwind side at pattern altitude and turning downwind.

Two concerns I have with your proposal are:
1. It requires aircraft to descend in the pattern. Descending on the upwind leg is probably not as bad as descending on the downwind leg, but if there's a plan on upwind, the results could be just as unpleasant.

2. The potential for conflict with aircraft departing straight out, especially high-performance ones.
That's why you have eyes and should be using them. You can see the runway the whole time you are on the up wind, and should be able to see any departing aircraft and every one should be announcing their position including departing aircraft.
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