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Lessons Learned Got a flying story to tell about lessons you've learned from mistakes you've made or seen others make? You may post your story in confidence here. (Log out to post anonymously.)

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Old April 25th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #51
Duncan Skylane81E is offline
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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Originally Posted by Jaybird180 View Post
how can flaps kill?
Get them stuck down on the go, depending on the performance of the plane and the effectiveness of the flaps
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Old April 25th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #52
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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Get them stuck down on the go, depending on the performance of the plane and the effectiveness of the flaps
If flaps are stuck in the down position in the initial climb it would be a simple matter of returning to the field. Just like leaving the pitot tube cover on, eh?
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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #53
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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If flaps are stuck in the down position in the initial climb it would be a simple matter of returning to the field. Just like leaving the pitot tube cover on, eh?
At max gross, and on a high DA day, you may not be able to climb with full flaps.

Max gross climbs with full flaps at sea level, standard day is a certification requirement, however.

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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #54
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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Originally Posted by Skip Miller View Post
At max gross, and on a high DA day, you may not be able to climb with full flaps.

Max gross climbs with full flaps at sea level, standard day is a certification requirement, however.

-Skip
Why would someone get themselves into this position in the first place? If your aircraft uses takeoff flaps, you select that and no more. If they do not retract on climbout then you return to land.
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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #55
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

> Why would someone get themselves into this position in the first place?

Go around ... due to animals, opposing or crossing traffic, obstruction, etc.
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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:43 PM   #56
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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> Why would someone get themselves into this position in the first place?

Go around ... due to animals, opposing or crossing traffic, obstruction, etc.
What aircraft may be at risk for this scenario? Underpowered with full flaps?
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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #57
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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What aircraft may be at risk for this scenario? Underpowered with full flaps?

Most 86 and older 172s fall into the above category.
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Old April 25th, 2012, 05:51 PM   #58
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

Let's also not forget the not unheard of asymetrical flap deployment.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 04:08 AM   #59
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You don't have to be at Max Gross around here in the summertime for full flaps stuck down during a go-around to become a full-blown emergency in most small singles.

With summertime mid-day DA approaching 10,000', you've got a serious climb problem on your hands.

In the mountains at 75F at even non-"one-way" airports, heavy, with flaps stuck at full, it's a guaranteed emergency.

Best keep those slow flight skills sharp and the turns coordinated and shallow.

C-150/152 are often grounded in the hottest days of summer outside of early morning and after sunset. C-172 is the trainer needed for two plus reasonable fuel during the daytime.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 09:36 AM   #60
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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Originally Posted by Jaybird180 View Post
Fuel on BOTH is in the takeoff and landing checklist. Very few people ever switch tanks in flight. I've tried it when I can remember on XCs to switch right tank because of the in-flight crossfeed issue. But it's really a minor issue and the fuel is feeding from both. When it gets below a certain level it will begin to equalize again. So that's why most poeple just leave it on BOTH.
The only time I'll use left or right in a plane with both is if I have a heavy person on one side that I want to balance for.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 02:54 PM   #61
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

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You mean the turbine Caribou project?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdVT4T6v7RQ
DAFUQ!!!
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 02:02 PM   #62
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

Jay,

The flaps thing was probably meant to apply to airliners or other, larger a/c that normally take off with flaps extended. Although as someone pointed out, departing with full flaps and a combination of a heavy plane and or high DA can result in the inability for a GA plane to climb. Fortunately the plane is slow and the flaps move quick so the attentive pilot will hopefully be able to fix a mistake here.

Airliners need a bunch of flaps on takeoff, because they are so slick when clean. A heavy airliner that rotates and notices he forgot to put the flaps down is in big big trouble.

Last edited by dell30rb; May 3rd, 2012 at 02:06 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #63
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

Flaps can cause problems for a lot of planes on take off, either too much flap or not enough. Citations use 15* actually T/O-approach flaps for take off, lengthens the ground run considerably with zero flaps. I had a pilot take off in my old 414A with 5 men on board, warm day, luckily at sea level with FULL FLAPS Good news is both engines ran fine, bad news is they didn't discover it until they were above 5000 feet! The switch was in the up position, but the flaps never moved after landing, recycling the switch moved the flaps up and the plane picked up speed pretty quickly.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #64
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

That's why I visually check flaps at takeoff. But I can do that in a high wing.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #65
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

This will tie back to the checklist bit of this thread in a minute. Bear with me please.

Today I took a 152 out with a squawk indicating an malfunctioning radio that was flashing and powering off (amusingly the sheet also said "the engine almost quit 3 times" /boggle). Mechanic checked it out and ran it around the pattern with no problem. Keep in mind that I had this aircraft for over an hour yesterday and also had no problem. Figured the guy from yesterday didn't know that the avionics were not connected to the engine and just assumed that the aircraft was about to fall out of the sky due to the radio issue....

Mechanic gives me the plane back with the all clear and I start my takeoff roll. Note that like an idiot I figured I already did the preflight just before the mechanic took it and and didn't need to do it again. I notice that this thing really wants to get off the ground and started to lift at 40 knots. I started forcing the nose back down into Vx and swearing at myself.

Of course, the mechanic landed with lots of nose up trim which I did not correct for takeoff =P

Checklists good. Assumptions bad.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #66
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

Oh and incidentally the radio failed as soon as I left the pattern, and I had to return to get a new radio
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Old May 12th, 2012, 11:44 PM   #67
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Re: Fuel Screwup Learned ON THE GROUND!

Very few airplanes have enough fuel in the system downstream of the shutoff valve to enable a takeoff. It might idle for some time with the fuel valve off, but takeoff fuel flow is much higher than cruise flows and the system simply can't provide it. The fuel strainer will not empty itself to provide the fuel, either, since its fuel enters the top and also exits the top. None of them exit the bottom; that's reserved for water and dirt. The only way to get fuel out of the strainer is to allow fuel into it. The shutoff valve is usually right near the firewall, so we have the fuel that's in a 3/8" or half-inch line about two feet long, and the fuel in the carb bowl. Neither of those amount to more than a couple of cupfuls and won't satisfy an engine that wants as little as seven gallons an hour at full throttle. That's a gallon every eight minutes, a pint a minute. The engine should quit in the takeoff roll, if not sooner.

The sticky 150 valve hasn't been taken out, disassembled and lubricated. It's a plain old tapered plug valve that requires a fuelproof grease like Fuel Lube. The grease gradually works out of it and the brass parts start seizing. This will continue until the handle or shaft breaks off, and then things get expensive. There's nothing like good maintenance.





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